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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

Converting Stryker-borne light infantry into a Javelin Anti-Armor Battalion capable of successfully defending against and attacking mechanized forces by being well prepared and exploiting terrain.






Terrain and training.
And 40 ATGMS per Bn.... One of my biggest issues with using NTC / CMTC as a test bed is that you don't carry ammunition for the ATGMS. I mean you may have some simulated rounds, but it never really matches how much weight / sustainment you really need to support it. Nothing saying that's unsurmountable of course.
 
I may be demonstrating my age, but a Striker Anti-Tank Battalion can't fight by itself. It would have to cross-group with other units, and be supported by artillery, engineers, etc.

Circa 1963 the Canadian regular infantry consisted of 13 battalions, grouped into six regiments: Canadian Guards, The RCR, PPCLI, R22eR, QOR, and the Black Watch. The Van Doos had three battalions, while the others each fielded two. After extensive study, including a major field exercise to gather data for operational analysis, 3 R22eR was converted to an anti-tank battalion of three companies, each of three mixed 106RR/Entac ATGMs, and one company of SS11ATGMs. The other infantry battalions also retained their 106RR anti-tank platoons. I may be wrong on the SS11B distribution, that that was nearly 60 years ago, and I was a lowly gunner subaltern in 1 RCHA in Gagetown. Anyway, this did not last, although I am not sure how much cap badge politics had to do with it. My main point, is that the anti-tank company in 4 CIBG in Germany was a supporting arm, and, while the commanderv may have advised the brigade commander, I am not sure that advisory role ever left the RCAC, and it would have been really unusual to give the unit an independent mission, witheut or without other troops. In a brigade combat team, the US Army might adopt another course, and they would only do so after lots of thought, trials, and exercises.
 
I may be demonstrating my age, but a Striker Anti-Tank Battalion can't fight by itself. It would have to cross-group with other units, and be supported by artillery, engineers, etc.
I think it would require local protection by infantry. Just a thought.
 
I may be demonstrating my age, but a Striker Anti-Tank Battalion can't fight by itself. It would have to cross-group with other units, and be supported by artillery, engineers, etc.

Circa 1963 the Canadian regular infantry consisted of 13 battalions, grouped into six regiments: Canadian Guards, The RCR, PPCLI, R22eR, QOR, and the Black Watch. The Van Doos had three battalions, while the others each fielded two. After extensive study, including a major field exercise to gather data for operational analysis, 3 R22eR was converted to an anti-tank battalion of three companies, each of three mixed 106RR/Entac ATGMs, and one company of SS11ATGMs. The other infantry battalions also retained their 106RR anti-tank platoons. I may be wrong on the SS11B distribution, that that was nearly 60 years ago, and I was a lowly gunner subaltern in 1 RCHA in Gagetown. Anyway, this did not last, although I am not sure how much cap badge politics had to do with it. My main point, is that the anti-tank company in 4 CIBG in Germany was a supporting arm, and, while the commanderv may have advised the brigade commander, I am not sure that advisory role ever left the RCAC, and it would have been really unusual to give the unit an independent mission, witheut or without other troops. In a brigade combat team, the US Army might adopt another course, and they would only do so after lots of thought, trials, and exercises.
I remember having a big fight on a hill during a brigade TEWT in 1970 about the SS11s (which were fast disappearing from out inventory to be replaced by nothing for quite a few years until the TOW made its debut) as to whether ATGMs should be an artillery resource (as a successor to the dozens and dozens of anti-tank batteries we had in the war) or belong to the armoured corps (because they thought all things anti-tank should be armoured) or to the infantry (because they had them then and possession was nine-tenths of the law).

It seems whenever we discuss these things the old PY thing rears its ugly head and we ignore things like what is the best command and control structure? how are these things going to be tactically employed? is it an essential integral weapons system to x unit type or only an occasional enabler? etc etc.

Costs are a very prohibitive factor when it comes to "arming" the Stryker battalion at roughly $400k for a command launch unit and $100-150k per missile. A Carl G on the other hand comes in at roughly $20k with rounds around $500-3K. Yup. A Carl G isn't a Javelin but then how often does an infantry battalion fight at ranges above 1,000 metres? There's a role for specialized anti-armour platoons and companies and layered anti-armour defences.

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But if you look at a grouping of 6 bodies with one gunner with a CLU and a loader and a Fireteam of a leader, a grenadier, a DMR and a C6 gunner,. And a vehicle with spare rounds, a 25 and a C6 in close support to their rear, I suggest the CO has an abundance of tools at his disposal to create a movable problem for armoured forces.
 
But if you look at a grouping of 6 bodies with one gunner with a CLU and a loader and a Fireteam of a leader, a grenadier, a DMR and a C6 gunner,. And a vehicle with spare rounds, a 25 and a C6 in close support to their rear, I suggest the CO has an abundance of tools at his disposal to create a movable problem for armoured forces.
Ah the "toss it in lav" school of thought, my nemesis. A Javelin is 47 inches long, an nearly a foot with protective caps. How many of those can you realistically store in a LAV with everything else you need to fight?
 
I may be demonstrating my age, but a Striker Anti-Tank Battalion can't fight by itself. It would have to cross-group with other units, and be supported by artillery, engineers, etc.

Circa 1963 the Canadian regular infantry consisted of 13 battalions, grouped into six regiments: Canadian Guards, The RCR, PPCLI, R22eR, QOR, and the Black Watch. The Van Doos had three battalions, while the others each fielded two. After extensive study, including a major field exercise to gather data for operational analysis, 3 R22eR was converted to an anti-tank battalion of three companies, each of three mixed 106RR/Entac ATGMs, and one company of SS11ATGMs. The other infantry battalions also retained their 106RR anti-tank platoons. I may be wrong on the SS11B distribution, that that was nearly 60 years ago, and I was a lowly gunner subaltern in 1 RCHA in Gagetown. Anyway, this did not last, although I am not sure how much cap badge politics had to do with it. My main point, is that the anti-tank company in 4 CIBG in Germany was a supporting arm, and, while the commanderv may have advised the brigade commander, I am not sure that advisory role ever left the RCAC, and it would have been really unusual to give the unit an independent mission, witheut or without other troops. In a brigade combat team, the US Army might adopt another course, and they would only do so after lots of thought, trials, and exercises.

I think what you are talking about is exactly what the US, and thus its allies, are all currently wrestling with. Adaptive. Dispersed. Operations.

How adaptive can a small body of troops be? How big an arms locker can they manage? How far apart can they be dispersed? What is their Area of Influence and how does it compare to its Area of Observation? How will it operate? How will it be controlled? Supported? Turned into a cohesive effective force?

As near as I can figure most infantry battalions are fielding about 24 Javelin type ATGMs each. I no longer know if they qualify as medium or heavy, short, medium or long range. And I suspect a lot of other folk are working throw that.

Some armies/units issue Javelins, which have a range of 2500 to 4750m apparently depending on the CLU and how stable the CLU is, at section level (27 per battalion). Some hold them at Platoon, 2-3 per, some at Company, 6 per, and some at Battalion - and some a combination of all of the above. The difference between the TOW and the Javelin is becoming so marginally small that the USMC is ditching TOWs in its Weapons companies for additional Javelins. The Strykers are adding CLUs to their ROWS so as to be able to launch a missile from under armour without having to dismount their sections, who will still have their own CLUs.

The Bradleys with their two TOW launchers and 7 onboard missiles, also carry a pair of CLUs per platoon and 4 to 6 Javelins so a Bradley infantry company of 14 vehicles carries 98 TOWs and up to 18 Javelins for a total of 116 Anti-Tank rounds with 4750m range.

The Israelis are complicating things further their Spike series of missiles.

Their 8 kg Short Range weapon is a 1500m disposable weapon for platoons.

The 14 kg Medium Range weapon has a range of 2500 kg which makes it a direct replacement for the early model Javelin.

The same 14 kg Long Range weapon was also marketed with a longer range of 4000m or that of the later model Javelins

The Long Range weapon has been upgraded to 5500m with a weight of 12.7 kg

There is also the larger 34 kg Extended Range missile with a range of 8000m that is compatible with light vehicles

The Extended Range weapon has also been upgraded to a range of 10,000m.

And finally there is the 70 kg N-LOS Spike with a range of >> 25 km.

And for targeting these things we have 40mm Drone-40s with 10 km ranges that can be launched from an under barrel grenade launcher or by hand.

So the same section that prior to Afghanistan was built around the post-WW2 200m battle now, potentially has the ability to reach out beyond 1000m to 5000m and observe 10,000m. And kill tanks and bunkers.

But, at the same time it is now more vulnerable to being struck from above by those same 40mm drones and airbursting munitions launched from 2000m away by launchers like the CG-84.



I just don't think anybody knows how all this is going to play out.

Sept 1914. What is the effect of Vickers and Maxims and QF 13 and 18 pdrs with airburst shrapnel?


I sense that the aim is to disperse the troops as much as possible while concentrating their fires with effect at the longest possible ranges. But how do you keep them in control. And how do you support them? With Fires. With Beans. With Bullets.

There seems to be an awful lot of upheaval at the moment and an awful lot of experimentation.

And not much for answers.

And somebody is asking what is Force 2025 going to look like.


I'm pretty sure that the answer is going to involve lots of artillery in the form of long range guns, missiles, loitering munitions, UASs and a requirement for GBAD-CRAM systems with EW and Directed Energy capabilities.

I am not sure what it going to mean for heavy forces which take time to mass at a point that may have moved by the time they get there. And what it means for the Engineers if the enemy spends less time on roads and fixed routes.
 
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Ah the "toss it in lav" school of thought, my nemesis. A Javelin is 47 inches long, an nearly a foot with protective caps. How many of those can you realistically store in a LAV with everything else you need to fight?

How many people do you need to put in a LAV to fight? What else do you need to carry? And what is to be carried at the CQ or RQ level to be issued according to a prepared plan.

And you always have those big bins hanging off the side. :D


How do the yanks manage to carry 7 TOWs and a couple of Javelins in a Bradley?


Throw out a couple of bodies that you don't have and can't hire in any case. Send them over to the Arty.
 
And further to developments in missile technology that threatens vehicles and fixed targets


Drone Guides Tank-Killing Missile Shot Beyond Visual Range​

European missile-makers MBDA have demonstrated for the first time a guided missile hitting a tank beyond the operator’s range of vision with target data from a small drone. The test firing, carried out by the French Army at Canjuers in the south of France, and announced this week, shows how tactical quadcopters could change the battlefield.
MBDA’s Missile Moyenne Portée (‘Medium-Range Missile’), or MMP, entered service in 2017. The soldier-portable, 33-pound missile is the equivalent of the U.S. Javelin, and is capable of taking out the heaviest tanks from 4,000 meters away. The missile has an infra-red seeker for identifying and locking on to targets. It can be locked on before launch, or fired and then locked on in flight. In addition to the normal direct fire modes, the MMP is network-enabled and has the ability to receive third-party target designation, as seen in the firing demonstration.
The spotter drone was an NX70 made by French company Novadem. This 2.2-pound quadcopter looks much like a consumer drone, but is rather more capable, with 45-minute endurance and the ability to operate in 40-mph winds. It also has an encrypted data link, a thermal imaging camera and a sophisticated software suite. A digital terrain model provides target georeferencing – in other words, you can point the camera at a target and it will generate the precise coordinates on the ground, without using a laser rangefinder which might give away the drone’s position.


 
How many people do you need to put in a LAV to fight? What else do you need to carry? And what is to be carried at the CQ or RQ level to be issued according to a prepared plan.

And you always have those big bins hanging off the side. :D


How do the yanks manage to carry 7 TOWs and a couple of Javelins in a Bradley?


Throw out a couple of bodies that you don't have and can't hire in any case. Send them over to the Arty.
I realize I've taken this far to literally but I went into a google search so you can all suffer though these pictures too.

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So the answer is that they store them in purpose built racks, not just tossed inside. Speaking to an American Tank guy I know, apparently the TOW reloads get swapped for Javelin rounds as there is no space for both, so it's not just addition it's exchange.

Fundamentally I agree with lots of ATGMs being a good thing, but I don't like using stuff like NTC as an experiment because they don't have to worry about the logistics of reloading those launchers. That not only effects your chain, but also your Infantry's ability to do it's job of seizing ground when they're all loaded down with a four foot long missile.
 
I realize I've taken this far to literally but I went into a google search so you can all suffer though these pictures too.

View attachment 65665

View attachment 65666
View attachment 65667

So the answer is that they store them in purpose built racks, not just tossed inside. Speaking to an American Tank guy I know, apparently the TOW reloads get swapped for Javelin rounds as there is no space for both, so it's not just addition it's exchange.

Fundamentally I agree with lots of ATGMs being a good thing, but I don't like using stuff like NTC as an experiment because they don't have to worry about the logistics of reloading those launchers. That not only effects your chain, but also your Infantry's ability to do it's job of seizing ground when they're all loaded down with a four foot long missile.

For reference, here's what it looks like when you bring a Javelin to a firefight as dismounted Infantry.

'Holy f*ck' went through my mind a couple of times, I must admit:

 
For reference, here's what it looks like when you bring a Javelin to a firefight as dismounted Infantry.

'Holy f*ck' went through my mind a couple of times, I must admit:

Okay. Perhaps just being a tad critical here but they just fired a $150,000 missile to take out a sniper where a few $300 60 mm mortar rounds would have probably been more effective and lighter to lug around. And I'm not even going to mention using a few 105 mm artillery rounds for a few hundred more that require no lugging around by the grunts at all.

:unsure:
 
That's where the 84mm comes in handy. I remember a sister platoon employing one to great effect in Afghanistan. We forget the central, important role of HE in winning engagements. There are alternatives to very expensive guided AT system to produce that effect.
 
M72. 40mm grenade launchers of various types. In the Canadian context likely a 25mm not too far away. Lots of options out there. But I'm not going to criticize someone using a tool they had available at the time. It's not like the Taliban had lots of armour you needed to save that missile for.
 
If funds were unlimited I'd not mind expending any amount whatsoever, too. Since funds are limited, expensive munitions in place of cheaper ones means something else is being shorted, which can always be interpreted to ultimately mean that lives are lost.
 
If funds were unlimited I'd not mind expending any amount whatsoever, too. Since funds are limited, expensive munitions in place of cheaper ones means something else is being shorted, which can always be interpreted to ultimately mean that lives are lost.
An Excalibur round (which is at the high end of precision munitions) costs half of what a Javelin costs and even better, a "dumb" 155 with a PGK precision guidance system comes in at around $10k and would be more effective.

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M72. 40mm grenade launchers of various types. In the Canadian context likely a 25mm not too far away. Lots of options out there. But I'm not going to criticize someone using a tool they had available at the time. It's not like the Taliban had lots of armour you needed to save that missile for.
I recall analysis that indicated the M72 was too small/short ranged and the 40mm HE was next to useless - not enough to cause suppression (and hence shock) and too easily blown off course.

I wonder if an upgrade on the Folgore could be made into a something potent, yet economical. Basically an upgunned 84.

 
That's where the 84mm comes in handy. I remember a sister platoon employing one to great effect in Afghanistan. We forget the central, important role of HE in winning engagements. There are alternatives to very expensive guided AT system to produce that effect.
Yeah I think the Javelin advantage in Afghanistan was just because of how those grape huts and other structures were built, much easier to go through the roof as it were.

You're of course very correct about us and forgetting what winning the firefight actually looks like. We train to achieve that in the time it takes to submit a contact report, when the reality is that you could be spending an hour doing it. Rangisms and the need to get everyone through trump everything I suppose.
 
Assuming that the fire fight is won?

Advance to contact Sept 1914...When was the firefight won?
 
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