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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

Corps is probably not achievable. A division centered on 2 Mechanized Bdes of 2 Bn and 1 Armoured regiment with detailed, established, funded, and formalized augmentation from reserves is doable. A light Bde outside of that is also achievable. You
A deployable division is clearly doable with the numbers we have.
  • 1 Brigade in Edmonton with 41 Brigade (roughly 2.5 million population between Calgary and Edmonton)
  • 2 Brigade in Petawawa with 33 Brigade (1 million population in Ottawa-Gatineau)
  • 5 Brigade in Valcartier with 35 Brigade (730,000 population in Quebec City)
  • 2-1/2 million people in Vancouver (39 Brigade)
  • 758 thousand people in Winnipeg (38 Brigade)
  • around 1 million in London/Windsor/Niagara (31 Brigade)
  • over 5-1/2 million people in the GTA (32 Brigade)
  • over 3-1/2 million people in Montreal (34 Brigade)
  • 350,000 in Halifax (36 Brigade)
  • 250,000ish in Moncton/Fredericton/St. John (37 Brigade)
You have the population potential to create whatever type of Divisional force you want if we use our Reserves effectively, but the question is how much is the GOC willing to spend on equipping the personnel we have and how willing the CAF is to kick over a bunch of existing sand castles to create a workable structure.

I'm not holding my breath for the GOC to spend the money to properly equip an Armoured Division and does a mixed Armoured/Light Division make any sense? You could easily have a Light Division (plus a multinational LAV Brigade for NATO) based on the US Army Light Division 2030 structure as I posted above but many on here would argue that we need to be "heavier" as an Army to be effective.

Edited to add:

Should the CAF decide that for whatever reason that a deployable Division is not the objective and instead chooses to focus on Brigade-sized contributions to allied Divisions, then do we necessarily need to just focus on Armoured/LAV/Light Brigades? Are Artillery Brigades, AD Battalions, Cavalry Squadrons, Engineer Regiments, etc. a potential alternative?
 
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A deployable division is clearly doable with the numbers we have.
  • 1 Brigade in Edmonton with 41 Brigade (roughly 2.5 million population between Calgary and Edmonton)
  • 2 Brigade in Petawawa with 33 Brigade (1 million population in Ottawa-Gatineau)
  • 5 Brigade in Valcartier with 35 Brigade (730,000 population in Quebec City)
  • 2-1/2 million people in Vancouver (39 Brigade)
  • 758 thousand people in Winnipeg (38 Brigade)
  • around 1 million in London/Windsor/Niagara (31 Brigade)
  • over 5-1/2 million people in the GTA (32 Brigade)
  • over 3-1/2 million people in Montreal (34 Brigade)
  • 350,000 in Halifax (36 Brigade)
  • 250,000ish in Moncton/Fredericton/St. John (37 Brigade)

That’s not really relevent at all. If we were able to reliably recruit a given number of that population each year through conscription it would matter. But it doesn’t. What matters is that have x number of positions available and that’s not going to change. @FJAG pointed out a while ago that on a Bde ex in Ontario, 38 (I couldn’t be wrong and am open to correction) managed just an under strength company in the field. That’s what we’re actually working with.
You have the population potential to create whatever type of Divisional force you want if we use our Reserves effectively, but the question is how much is the GOC willing to spend on equipping the personnel we have and how willing the CAF is to kick over a bunch of existing sand castles to create a workable structure.

Population is irrelevant, approved numbers is what matters. Agree about kicking over sand castles.
I'm not holding my breath for the GOC to spend the money to properly equip an Armoured Division and does a mixed Armoured/Light Division make any sense? You could easily have a Light Division (plus a multinational LAV Brigade for NATO) based on the US Army Light Division 2030 structure as I posted above but many on here would argue that we need to be "heavier" as an Army to be effective.

I’m a pragmatic kind of guy. I look back at what we’ve done for the last 35 years and see us deploying BG sized elements constantly. We also need to be able to surge to a Bde for NATO. To me that means we need to be able to. Force generate high readiness light forces for tasks that require short turn around; concurrently we need to have the ability to rotate BG sized elements / provide a force for war. To me that means minimum 2 Mechanized Bdes, and one light. I’m not worried about the division as a field force frankly, we haven’t deployed one since WW2, and I don’t see that changing. If we do think of 1 Can Div as tactical then its two mechanized Bns are up, and its light is able to screen and take on defensive tasks as required.


3 100% reg Force light Bns in Petawawa for the light Bde. Supported by 18 M777, light engineer regiment, and a light Cav formation once they figure that out. I’d like it to be supported by a 4th Bn that would be 10/90 as well for depth.

2 x Mechanized Bdes
2x 70/30 Mechanized Bns of 2 70/30 and 1 30/70 rifle companies. Full regular combat support company.
1x 30 tank regiment with 2 14 tank Sqns, 1 Recce Sqn.
1 x 10/90 TAPV mounted Bn
1x crew replacement regiment training crews to augment / replace AFV crew.
Artillery regiment on some kind of SPG with 1 70/30 and 2 30/70 gun Bty of at least 6 guns. 1 100/0 STA / OP bty.
1 engineer regiment


Divison owns all of this, plus 1 JSR, and 4 AD once the UOR is online. I’d also like to see rocket / missile artillery handled by a Div level reserve asset.

It would allow us to maintain deployed BGs with an alternating Bde cycle, while also surging to a Bde as needed. The 10/90 Bns would be based in large population centres to ensure they can get mass (contradictory I know but if we have to restructure it would make more sense). This would also allow a full Bn of LAVs to stay in Europe, with another Bn set ready to go where ever.

All of this would be wasted effort if there’s no replacement for indirect fires. Which at present is an unfunded project so none of this matters.
 
That’s not really relevent at all. If we were able to reliably recruit a given number of that population each year through conscription it would matter. But it doesn’t. What matters is that have x number of positions available and that’s not going to change. @FJAG pointed out a while ago that on a Bde ex in Ontario, 38 (I couldn’t be wrong and am open to correction) managed just an under strength company in the field. That’s what we’re actually working with.


Population is irrelevant, approved numbers is what matters. Agree about kicking over sand castles.


I’m a pragmatic kind of guy. I look back at what we’ve done for the last 35 years and see us deploying BG sized elements constantly. We also need to be able to surge to a Bde for NATO. To me that means we need to be able to. Force generate high readiness light forces for tasks that require short turn around; concurrently we need to have the ability to rotate BG sized elements / provide a force for war. To me that means minimum 2 Mechanized Bdes, and one light. I’m not worried about the division as a field force frankly, we haven’t deployed one since WW2, and I don’t see that changing. If we do think of 1 Can Div as tactical then its two mechanized Bns are up, and its light is able to screen and take on defensive tasks as required.


3 100% reg Force light Bns in Petawawa for the light Bde. Supported by 18 M777, light engineer regiment, and a light Cav formation once they figure that out. I’d like it to be supported by a 4th Bn that would be 10/90 as well for depth.

2 x Mechanized Bdes
2x 70/30 Mechanized Bns of 2 70/30 and 1 30/70 rifle companies. Full regular combat support company.
1x 30 tank regiment with 2 14 tank Sqns, 1 Recce Sqn.
1 x 10/90 TAPV mounted Bn
1x crew replacement regiment training crews to augment / replace AFV crew.
Artillery regiment on some kind of SPG with 1 70/30 and 2 30/70 gun Bty of at least 6 guns. 1 100/0 STA / OP bty.
1 engineer regiment


Divison owns all of this, plus 1 JSR, and 4 AD once the UOR is online. I’d also like to see rocket / missile artillery handled by a Div level reserve asset.

It would allow us to maintain deployed BGs with an alternating Bde cycle, while also surging to a Bde as needed. The 10/90 Bns would be based in large population centres to ensure they can get mass (contradictory I know but if we have to restructure it would make more sense). This would also allow a full Bn of LAVs to stay in Europe, with another Bn set ready to go where ever.

All of this would be wasted effort if there’s no replacement for indirect fires. Which at present is an unfunded project so none of this matters.

Where are your CSS elements?
 
Where are your CSS elements?
They would remain essentially unchanged. I think the Svc Bn structure is acceptable writhing the regular Bdes at this point. What we lack is people to man them, and my understanding is that gets worse in the reserves so there needs to be a solution there.

What I would like to see happen if a shift in how we recruit trades people. If we could full on offer apprenticeships with certification and staged contracts we’d be doing better I think. Ie: Steve wants to be a mechanic, he joins the army on a four year contract and completes his apprenticeship through full time or part service, as part of his contract he’s a reservist for a further 3 years and works out of the Svc Bn closest to him. Something like that across the board. Caveat here being I’m neither logistician or a trades person so Im pretty far out of my lane, but instead of reserve Svc Bns would it not be workable to have trained tradesmen working by themselves with some kind of standards branch ensure quality control ?
 
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Whisper the word 'tours' in any militia armoury and you'll start a stampede to the BOR...
Hopefully they have pass ports and security clearances done and haven’t been told “they’ll wave that.”

I’ve also had compatriots in the reserves that stayed home from deployments because defence and security tasks were beneath them. If it’s not sexy tip of the spear stuff I don’t expect reservists to reliable show up.
 
Hopefully they have pass ports and security clearances done and haven’t been told “they’ll wave that.”

I’ve also had compatriots in the reserves that stayed home from deployments because defence and security tasks were beneath them. If it’s not sexy tip of the spear stuff I don’t expect reservists to reliable show up.

We have guys like that in the Navy as well. On MELs and can't do anything. But the moment work ups is over and the ship is about to leave for that sweet tax free money they are suddenly all better.

And then broken again as soon as PDL is over.
 
A deployable division is clearly doable with the numbers we have.
  • 1 Brigade in Edmonton with 41 Brigade (roughly 2.5 million population between Calgary and Edmonton)
  • 2 Brigade in Petawawa with 33 Brigade (1 million population in Ottawa-Gatineau)
  • 5 Brigade in Valcartier with 35 Brigade (730,000 population in Quebec City)
  • 2-1/2 million people in Vancouver (39 Brigade)
  • 758 thousand people in Winnipeg (38 Brigade)
  • around 1 million in London/Windsor/Niagara (31 Brigade)
  • over 5-1/2 million people in the GTA (32 Brigade)
  • over 3-1/2 million people in Montreal (34 Brigade)
  • 350,000 in Halifax (36 Brigade)
  • 250,000ish in Moncton/Fredericton/St. John (37 Brigade)
You have the population potential to create whatever type of Divisional force you want if we use our Reserves effectively, but the question is how much is the GOC willing to spend on equipping the personnel we have and how willing the CAF is to kick over a bunch of existing sand castles to create a workable structure.

I'm not holding my breath for the GOC to spend the money to properly equip an Armoured Division and does a mixed Armoured/Light Division make any sense? You could easily have a Light Division (plus a multinational LAV Brigade for NATO) based on the US Army Light Division 2030 structure as I posted above but many on here would argue that we need to be "heavier" as an Army to be effective.

Edited to add:

Should the CAF decide that for whatever reason that a deployable Division is not the objective and instead chooses to focus on Brigade-sized contributions to allied Divisions, then do we necessarily need to just focus on Armoured/LAV/Light Brigades? Are Artillery Brigades, AD Battalions, Cavalry Squadrons, Engineer Regiments, etc. a potential alternative?

Looking at what the GOC may fund I suggest that the CAF would be better off with a Light Div, of 2 Light Bde’s and 2 Medium (LAV).

I personally would prefer to have 1 Airmobile BCT (Edmonton 70/30) , 1 Para BCT (Petawawa 70/30) 1 Armor BCT (R22eR) and a LAV BCT (Gagetown 30/70)
(with equipment for a 2nd LAV BCT as well)
With the ABCT predeployed to Europe, and equipment for the second LAV BCT prepositioned as well, and DIV Arty and other Div enablers.
To me the ABCT requires a HIFV-T and more MBT’s, plus tracked SPG, AD, AVLB, AEV, ARV etc.

All of which requires a massive influx of capital acquisition projects to equip. However none of which should be a stretch for Canada given its territory, population and GDP.
 
That’s not really relevent at all. If we were able to reliably recruit a given number of that population each year through conscription it would matter. But it doesn’t. What matters is that have x number of positions available and that’s not going to change. @FJAG pointed out a while ago that on a Bde ex in Ontario, 38 (I couldn’t be wrong and am open to correction) managed just an under strength company in the field. That’s what we’re actually working with.


Population is irrelevant, approved numbers is what matters. Agree about kicking over sand castles.
Agreed. There are sufficient authorized ResF positions to man, in conjunction with the RegF field Army PYs, 2 divisional structures.

The issue, however, isn't just authorized manning but pragmatically how filled are they. It's some time since I've looked at manning levels, but the 10 ResF CBGs were manned at roughly 1,200 to 2,200 pers each for, at that time, a total of roughly 16,500. And then there is the whole Class B dilemma that syphons of people and funding.

The population base is relevant, but only if it can be motivated to join and stay with the program. How we allocate positions is another matter.

Just as an aside, the term, 2 fully manned divisions does not necessarily have to equate to fully equipped divisions. In particular, ResF heavy brigades only need enough equipment in the first instance to ensure that they can be fully trained on it. OTOH, RegF heavy units intended for quick reaction work need both the equipment for training and the equipment for deploying with. In other words, the first thing that we need is a plan for want we want to be before we start planning for equipment. That's an entirely different question from reorganizing for the purpose of improving the management and training of the ResF which should be done regardless of whether we equip them fully or not.
I’m a pragmatic kind of guy. I look back at what we’ve done for the last 35 years and see us deploying BG sized elements constantly. We also need to be able to surge to a Bde for NATO. To me that means we need to be able to. Force generate high readiness light forces for tasks that require short turn around; concurrently we need to have the ability to rotate BG sized elements / provide a force for war.
That's the way I see it too.
To me that means minimum 2 Mechanized Bdes, and one light.
IMHO we are bound to the reality of 3+1 bdes and 9 (12 in a pinch) deployable BG HQs. I don't think that's enough for a proper rotation scheme for the number of BG tasks that SSE demands the CAF can do (and most of those fall on the Army). One thing that a 30/70 structure in part of the force does, is provide more deployable/rotatable BG and Bde HQs.
I’m not worried about the division as a field force frankly, we haven’t deployed one since WW2, and I don’t see that changing. If we do think of 1 Can Div as tactical then its two mechanized Bns are up, and its light is able to screen and take on defensive tasks as required.
I do not like the 1 Div construct. It runs multiple missions for CJOC and isn't well structured to become a deployed div HQ. OTOH we currently invest in 4 administrative divisional headquarters. I could see getting rid of 1 Div as structured and putting those resources and tasks directly into CJOC. In the meantime the 4 existing div HQs could be contracted into 2 proper div HQs one of which would have the role for being an expeditionary HQ while the other concentrates on defence of Canada.
3 100% reg Force light Bns in Petawawa for the light Bde. Supported by 18 M777, light engineer regiment, and a light Cav formation once they figure that out. I’d like it to be supported by a 4th Bn that would be 10/90 as well for depth.
I agree with a light brigade that is predominantly RegF. I would prefer to keep the arty and engineer resources out of the brigade and in their own formations (an Arty bde and a CS brigade). Both arty and engineer resources can be allocated as required tailored for each mission. There obviously needs to be some training crossover for appropriate FSCC, FOO, JTAC, STACC, ASCC and ESCC. Arty gunlines are rarely needed on peacetime mission. Engrs more often.
2 x Mechanized Bdes
2x 70/30 Mechanized Bns of 2 70/30 and 1 30/70 rifle companies. Full regular combat support company.
1x 30 tank regiment with 2 14 tank Sqns, 1 Recce Sqn.
1 x 10/90 TAPV mounted Bn
1x crew replacement regiment training crews to augment / replace AFV crew.
Artillery regiment on some kind of SPG with 1 70/30 and 2 30/70 gun Bty of at least 6 guns. 1 100/0 STA / OP bty.
1 engineer regiment
Same comment on arty and engineers. IMHO you need several 100/0 gun batteries to ensure proper career development for leadership offrs and NCMs. The rest can be 10/90. You probably need more than one 100/0 OP battery - again for career development. STA can be predominantly ResF - say 30/70.
Divison owns all of this, plus 1 JSR, and 4 AD once the UOR is online. I’d also like to see rocket / missile artillery handled by a Div level reserve asset.
(y)
It would allow us to maintain deployed BGs with an alternating Bde cycle, while also surging to a Bde as needed.
As noted above I don't think we have enough HQs for those rotations if we continue on 6 month cycles. We need to ad hoc too often rather than deploying an established entity. As an example, if you take 1 CMBG (with 4 x BG HQs) and 3 CBGs and use its RegF & ResF components to create 3 x 30/70 bdes you would end up with 3 x deployable Bde staff and 9 x deployable BG HQs which would more than double the ability to create rotational HQs. The issue that is left is the number of deployable RegF sub units which remain the same but offer a better possibility to long-term plan and train reservists to fill the blank files. This would work well with such known and established tasks such as the eFP.

Obviously the quick reaction forces are a different issue and need to be handled differently.
The 10/90 Bns would be based in large population centres to ensure they can get mass (contradictory I know but if we have to restructure it would make more sense). This would also allow a full Bn of LAVs to stay in Europe, with another Bn set ready to go where ever.
I would go so far as to put a fully equipped Type 44 armoured regiment and two LAV battalions into Europe and conduct all bde level training (RegF and ResF) there on that equipment. (I'll leave aside how much of that it rotationally manned and how much is fly-over) That leaves enough tanks and LAVs in Canada to equip 6 LAV coys and 2 tank squadrons for training within the 3 x 30/70 bdes (in Ontario and on the Prairies) and another 6 LAV companies in Quebec.

All of this would be wasted effort if there’s no replacement for indirect fires. Which at present is an unfunded project so none of this matters.
I'm less sanguine about that. GBAD is a must have. ATGMs are a must have. We can risk manage the M777s and other deteriorating guns for a bit longer, but not much longer.

If we went to a 30/70 arty gun battery structure our 33 guns could provide 1 x 6 gun battery forward deployed and 4 x 6 gun batteries (generating 4 x 30/70 regiments). That leaves 3 spare for technical reference with RCEME and RCSA. (I'd move all training on the M777 to the regiments - and yeah. That really leaves the RCSA short but IMHO it's more critical that the field units can train as six-gun batteries)

That said, we do need a good 155mm/L52 or better SP and soon.

I must admit, I like this thread. There have been some very good ideas here that have made me modify my thoughts quite a few times.

🍻
 
Agreed. There are sufficient authorized ResF positions to man, in conjunction with the RegF field Army PYs, 2 divisional structures.

The issue, however, isn't just authorized manning but pragmatically how filled are they. It's some time since I've looked at manning levels, but the 10 ResF CBGs were manned at roughly 1,200 to 2,200 pers each for, at that time, a total of roughly 16,500. And then there is the whole Class B dilemma that syphons of people and funding.

The population base is relevant, but only if it can be motivated to join and stay with the program. How we allocate positions is another matter.

Just as an aside, the term, 2 fully manned divisions does not necessarily have to equate to fully equipped divisions. In particular, ResF heavy brigades only need enough equipment in the first instance to ensure that they can be fully trained on it. OTOH, RegF heavy units intended for quick reaction work need both the equipment for training and the equipment for deploying with. In other words, the first thing that we need is a plan for want we want to be before we start planning for equipment. That's an entirely different question from reorganizing for the purpose of improving the management and training of the ResF which should be done regardless of whether we equip them fully or not.

That's the way I see it too.

IMHO we are bound to the reality of 3+1 bdes and 9 (12 in a pinch) deployable BG HQs. I don't think that's enough for a proper rotation scheme for the number of BG tasks that SSE demands the CAF can do (and most of those fall on the Army). One thing that a 30/70 structure in part of the force does, is provide more deployable/rotatable BG and Bde HQs.

I do not like the 1 Div construct. It runs multiple missions for CJOC and isn't well structured to become a deployed div HQ. OTOH we currently invest in 4 administrative divisional headquarters. I could see getting rid of 1 Div as structured and putting those resources and tasks directly into CJOC. In the meantime the 4 existing div HQs could be contracted into 2 proper div HQs one of which would have the role for being an expeditionary HQ while the other concentrates on defence of Canada.

I agree with a light brigade that is predominantly RegF. I would prefer to keep the arty and engineer resources out of the brigade and in their own formations (an Arty bde and a CS brigade). Both arty and engineer resources can be allocated as required tailored for each mission. There obviously needs to be some training crossover for appropriate FSCC, FOO, JTAC, STACC, ASCC and ESCC. Arty gunlines are rarely needed on peacetime mission. Engrs more often.

Same comment on arty and engineers. IMHO you need several 100/0 gun batteries to ensure proper career development for leadership offrs and NCMs. The rest can be 10/90. You probably need more than one 100/0 OP battery - again for career development. STA can be predominantly ResF - say 30/70.

(y)

As noted above I don't think we have enough HQs for those rotations if we continue on 6 month cycles. We need to ad hoc too often rather than deploying an established entity. As an example, if you take 1 CMBG (with 4 x BG HQs) and 3 CBGs and use its RegF & ResF components to create 3 x 30/70 bdes you would end up with 3 x deployable Bde staff and 9 x deployable BG HQs which would more than double the ability to create rotational HQs. The issue that is left is the number of deployable RegF sub units which remain the same but offer a better possibility to long-term plan and train reservists to fill the blank files. This would work well with such known and established tasks such as the eFP.

Obviously the quick reaction forces are a different issue and need to be handled differently.

I would go so far as to put a fully equipped Type 44 armoured regiment and two LAV battalions into Europe and conduct all bde level training (RegF and ResF) there on that equipment. (I'll leave aside how much of that it rotationally manned and how much is fly-over) That leaves enough tanks and LAVs in Canada to equip 6 LAV coys and 2 tank squadrons for training within the 3 x 30/70 bdes (in Ontario and on the Prairies) and another 6 LAV companies in Quebec.


I'm less sanguine about that. GBAD is a must have. ATGMs are a must have. We can risk manage the M777s and other deteriorating guns for a bit longer, but not much longer.

If we went to a 30/70 arty gun battery structure our 33 guns could provide 1 x 6 gun battery forward deployed and 4 x 6 gun batteries (generating 4 x 30/70 regiments). That leaves 3 spare for technical reference with RCEME and RCSA. (I'd move all training on the M777 to the regiments - and yeah. That really leaves the RCSA short but IMHO it's more critical that the field units can train as six-gun batteries)

That said, we do need a good 155mm/L52 or better SP and soon.

I must admit, I like this thread. There have been some very good ideas here that have made me modify my thoughts quite a few times.

🍻

Random observation on a tangent: I find the fact that we still think of various formations in terms of 10/90, 30/70, or whatever, which ironically reflects the depth of the lack of integration in our Army.

Anyways, please carry on while I scrub me puttees over here... ;)
 
Random observation on a tangent: I find the fact that we still think of various formations in terms of 10/90, 30/70, or whatever, which ironically reflects the depth of the lack of integration in our Army.

Anyways, please carry on while I scrub me puttees over here... ;)
I wish that I'd kept mine but had to turn them in. Kept my weights for quite a few years and even used them during our brief fling with the coat of many colours, high-topped boots fetish. When we finally scrapped that I threw them out. Like I said before-I still have my small pack as a souvenir.

:giggle:
 
Random observation on a tangent: I find the fact that we still think of various formations in terms of 10/90, 30/70, or whatever, which ironically reflects the depth of the lack of integration in our Army.

Anyways, please carry on while I scrub me puttees over here... ;)
At the end of the day a mixed total force system is the only reasonable way forward for Canada.
The PRes need Regular Force structures and the Regular Army needs personnel.

If Canada had a major PRes mobilization and commitment of PRes complete units during GWOT like the ARNG that may be different. But right now the Army doesn’t buy the PRes equipment and due to both that and experience issues from time available etc there is now way for the PRes to organically develop the needed senior leadership.
 
Random observation on a tangent: I find the fact that we still think of various formations in terms of 10/90, 30/70, or whatever, which ironically reflects the depth of the lack of integration in our Army.

Anyways, please carry on while I scrub me puttees over here... ;)
You mean as opposed just thinking of full time and part time positions ? I tend to agree, but with the service and training requirements being as different as they are, it would take a large shift.

Interestingly in the new DP1 scheme the artillery has devised, independent of reason and logic it seems, reservists will be much more qualified after their course in that they’ll actually see a howitzer.
 
Interestingly in the new DP1 scheme the artillery has devised, independent of reason and logic it seems, reservists will be much more qualified after their course in that they’ll actually see a howitzer.
By which, I presume you mean an M777. They've all seen plenty of C3s or LG1s.

I'd be interested in knowing how they'll pull that off. Ship everyone to the four bases that have them or, heaven forbid, take the guns to the reservists?

:giggle:
 
By which, I presume you mean an M777. They've all seen plenty of C3s or LG1s.

Oh no, the new DP1 doesn’t involve arty comms or any work on a howitzer at all. Or section attacks, patrolling, or defensive operations… that’s all to be done “at the unit” which of course means no more money or reduction in collective training to meet this.

I'd be interested in knowing how they'll pull that off. Ship everyone to the four bases that have them or, heaven forbid, take the guns to the reservists?

:giggle:

Oh no no the reservists get qualified in their guns on DP1 is what I mean.
 
Oh! I get it now.

Let me restart. I presume that the guns are still part of the training required for DP1 but its done at the unit rather than at RCSA.

Takes me back to the early 70's when we had to surge training to expand for the air defence expansion. Did what was then called the Trade Level 3 course (basically army fieldcraft and crew served weapons and the 105mm howitzer combined) and then did Trade Level 4 (gun number OJT) all at 2 RCHA.

Each training troop had a staff of five full-time for admin and instruction and were augmented by around a dozen as drivers, FOOs, CP staff for the live-fire exercise. We had a troop in-house three months at a time for about a year - sometimes two. It really didn't interfere with unit training and was wildly successful. I'm a great fan mainly because I ran two back-to-back troops as a young lieutenant. It was quite rewarding.

🍻
 
You mean as opposed just thinking of full time and part time positions ? I tend to agree, but with the service and training requirements being as different as they are, it would take a large shift.

Interestingly in the new DP1 scheme the artillery has devised, independent of reason and logic it seems, reservists will be much more qualified after their course in that they’ll actually see a howitzer.

Yeah, I guess.

Rather than approaching everything from a 'Balkanized' point of view it would be a refreshing change to see a 'capability' identified, and all the resources aligned accordingly to achieve it, whether full or part time (or civilian).
 
Yeah, I guess.

Rather than approaching everything from a 'Balkanized' point of view it would be a refreshing change to see a 'capability' identified, and all the resources aligned accordingly to achieve it, whether full or part time (or civilian).
Agreed, which is one reason I use Mixed Total Force.
It doesn’t matter who is filing the role; it solely matters the roles are filled by trained capable personnel who have equipment to do their jobs.

I tend to use 30/70 or 70/30 to describe the mix of personnel full or part time in units for simple PY allocation.
 
I've been looking at the latest US Army proposed Divisional structures again and I think that a modified version of the Light Division 2030 could work for Canada.

A deployable division is clearly doable with the numbers we have.
  • 1 Brigade in Edmonton with 41 Brigade (roughly 2.5 million population between Calgary and Edmonton)
  • 2 Brigade in Petawawa with 33 Brigade (1 million population in Ottawa-Gatineau)
  • 5 Brigade in Valcartier with 35 Brigade (730,000 population in Quebec City)
  • 2-1/2 million people in Vancouver (39 Brigade)
  • 758 thousand people in Winnipeg (38 Brigade)
  • around 1 million in London/Windsor/Niagara (31 Brigade)
  • over 5-1/2 million people in the GTA (32 Brigade)
  • over 3-1/2 million people in Montreal (34 Brigade)
  • 350,000 in Halifax (36 Brigade)
  • 250,000ish in Moncton/Fredericton/St. John (37 Brigade)

I was looking at Battle Order again and noticed the express allowance for the 2 Bn OCONUS LBCT/MBCT, which got me thinking- how far are we from executing that Light Division with just the assets of the current 4 and 5 Division? (assuming full manning, reserve reform and utilization.) That would leave the 2nd and 3rd Division free with all the LAV's and tanks for Mech BG's (wartime surge to Bde's)

Building with 2 CMBG and 5x CBG's (31/32/33/36/37)
Base it across Petawa, Gagetown, and Borden (yes infrastructure investment) spreading divisional assets where needed to get the reserve bodies

Each Base has:
Bde HQ, 100/0 Light Bn, 10/90 Light Bn, 100/0 Light Cavalry Squadron, 0/100 MPF/DF Squadron*, 0/100 Gun Bty*, 0/100, AD Bty*, 0/100 Engineer Squadron*

At Division - Petawawa
RCD Regimental HQ and a 100/0 Squadron (MPF/DF) (*Bde squadrons nominally report to)
2 RCHA HQ, OP/STA Bty, and 100/0 Gun bty, (** ditto)
4AD HQ, 100/0 AD Bty,( **** ditto)
Combat Engineer Regiment (*** ditto)


This works on the assumption that the Ontario CBG's and the amalgam of 36 and 37 can (could/should) each provide 3x Inf coy, 1x Weapons/ CS Coy, 1x MPF Sqn, 2x Artillery Bty (one each gun and AD), one engineer squadron, plus the bodies to beef up the expanded and geographically spread out 2 Service Bn. That also leaves one full Southern Ontario CBG untouched to address gaps like the tube artillery shortage ( 4 bty's instead of 9) and Service Bn's/ Sustainment. Aviation is missing, as are MP and CBRN from the Protection Bde. (Army assets?). I haven't addressed where the PY's would come from for the Bn Hq's for the 3x 10/90 Bn's.
 
I was looking at Battle Order again and noticed the express allowance for the 2 Bn OCONUS LBCT/MBCT, which got me thinking- how far are we from executing that Light Division with just the assets of the current 4 and 5 Division? (assuming full manning, reserve reform and utilization.) That would leave the 2nd and 3rd Division free with all the LAV's and tanks for Mech BG's (wartime surge to Bde's)

Building with 2 CMBG and 5x CBG's (31/32/33/36/37)
Base it across Petawa, Gagetown, and Borden (yes infrastructure investment) spreading divisional assets where needed to get the reserve bodies

Each Base has:
Bde HQ, 100/0 Light Bn, 10/90 Light Bn, 100/0 Light Cavalry Squadron, 0/100 MPF/DF Squadron*, 0/100 Gun Bty*, 0/100, AD Bty*, 0/100 Engineer Squadron*

At Division - Petawawa
RCD Regimental HQ and a 100/0 Squadron (MPF/DF) (*Bde squadrons nominally report to)
2 RCHA HQ, OP/STA Bty, and 100/0 Gun bty, (** ditto)
4AD HQ, 100/0 AD Bty,( **** ditto)
Combat Engineer Regiment (*** ditto)


This works on the assumption that the Ontario CBG's and the amalgam of 36 and 37 can (could/should) each provide 3x Inf coy, 1x Weapons/ CS Coy, 1x MPF Sqn, 2x Artillery Bty (one each gun and AD), one engineer squadron, plus the bodies to beef up the expanded and geographically spread out 2 Service Bn. That also leaves one full Southern Ontario CBG untouched to address gaps like the tube artillery shortage ( 4 bty's instead of 9) and Service Bn's/ Sustainment. Aviation is missing, as are MP and CBRN from the Protection Bde. (Army assets?). I haven't addressed where the PY's would come from for the Bn Hq's for the 3x 10/90 Bn's.
You may theoretically have PY’s (which I doubt) but you definitely don’t have equipment.

I think that any CA plan for larger than 1 Div is just wishing away equipment issues.
 
You may theoretically have PY’s (which I doubt) but you definitely don’t have equipment.

I think that any CA plan for larger than 1 Div is just wishing away equipment issues.
Isn't this thread based on the premise of proposing end states that require many issues to be wished away? And this isn't very different than many of the 4 Bde plan's put forward. 1 and 5 CMBG would remain essentially as is, each with 2x70/30 and 1x 30/70 Mech Bn's plus a hybrid armour and artillery regiment each. The only real difference is that by using the OCONUS LBCT structure and 10/90 Light Bn's you create the ability for your QRF tasked force to pivot and deploy a short division in war time, while 2 and 5 share the task of sustaining Mech Nato Tasking

Equipment wise:
TAPV as placeholder for both Light Cav and Direct Fire Vehicles (JLTV and MPF to replace)
Pool all towed howitzers and L16's in the division (SP 155 and 120 for 1 and 5 CMBG)

A lot of the rest would be covered by existing projects no? As long as said projects were scoped to account for the division
TMP + Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement + LUV to provide light-> Motorized flexibilty
ATGM Replacement
GBAD
 
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