Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[quadrapiper]

The problem with any ‘peacetime’ Army concept in Canada is Canadians have zero interest in kitting it out properly or with any depth of equipment to sustain even 1 Bde in Cbt.

Alternatively, the Canadian public has zero specific interest in any number of Federal things vital to maintaining our shared existence, but just expect, broadly and vaguely, that someone's dealing with that, because there's far too much going on in the federal apparatus for anyone to really keep track of, unless they're of the Cabinet, Treasury Board, or Privy Council.

The Army is just an easy thing for politicians to not bother with, as it's expensive, complicated, and will continue to do most of its domestic functions (providing relatively simple assistance to other bits of government) even if you neglect it. Also, the most expensive and complicated units and equipment have a tendency to sit around far more than the Navy or Air Force.

The British have recently reorganized their Divisions to break up their formerly geographical focus.

Might be a good place for us to start, wihtout having to buy new kit etc, to avoid perpetuating self-defeating geographical 'siloes':

Does that apply in the same way when the British Isles would fit inside most (all?) of the CBGs' footprints with space left over, and their transport network is really only replicated in Canada along the St Lawrence corridor?

 

[Kirkhill]

You’re obviously aware the Queens Division is administrative just like the Prince of Wales division and that there hasn’t been geographic divisions ins decades. They’re just ways of massing regiments to efficiently run career courses and posting plots.

The only tactical divisions in the British Army are 1st, 3rd, and 6th.

Administrative

Tactical

 

[Kirkhill]

Does that apply in the same way when the British Isles would fit inside most (all?) of the CBGs' footprints with space left over, and their transport network is really only replicated in Canada along the St Lawrence corridor?

One notable exception - try taking the train from Manchester to Leeds. 35.69 miles.

 

[Prairie canuck]

Isn't that where we should expect our GO/FOs and politicians to think beyond the populace and do what's right while articulating why to the populace regardless of their short sighted wants ?

Correct. Politicians, CAF leadership, and bureaucracy are the limiting factor. Not the general Canadian population. If you want the population educated then there has never been more opportunity to use the vast variety of media, social and semi mainstream, to educate. You don't need an official body to do this. Take a page out of the special interest/protest groups playbooks. A guy I know heard from a guy who has a friend who works in the cafeteria in Ottawa...

 

[Prairie canuck]

Administrative

Tactical

Implementing in real world conflict

 

[daftandbarmy]

You’re obviously aware the Queens Division is administrative just like the Prince of Wales division and that there hasn’t been geographic divisions ins decades. They’re just ways of massing regiments to efficiently run career courses and posting plots.

The only tactical divisions in the British Army are 1st, 3rd, and 6th.

Yes, I know. They grouped their Infantry into 'Divisions' years ago, ostensibly for greater alignment amongst units with things in common (e.g., Light, Scottish, Guards, Fish and Chip Mobs ) etc. to try to get a bit of a grip on all the chaos that normally reigns in amongst the 'Stabby People'.

It also became a way to downsize/ amalgamate within defined regions when various reorgs were imposed from above. If you're going to cancel a regiment, at least there's one nearby they can connect with.

One of the problems with that though is that regional affiliations can be counter-productive when you're trying to run a big, 'seamless' Army.

I assume this latest effort is to get people thinking more corporately, and outside of regional silos, which our current Admin Divisional struncture (e.g. 3 Div of the West) tends to disincentivize I think.

 

[markppcli]

Administrative

Tactical

That would be more apt if those infantry Bns were also assigned to formations. The UK army’s field Divisons fight. The infantry Divisons determine who you do your career course with

 

[markppcli]

Yes, I know. They grouped their Infantry into 'Divisions' years ago, ostensibly for greater alignment amongst units with things in common (e.g., Light, Scottish, Guards, Fish and Chip Mobs ) etc. to try to get a bit of a grip on all the chaos that normally reigns in amongst the 'Stabby People'.

It also became a way to downsize/ amalgamate within defined regions when various reorgs were imposed from above. If you're going to cancel a regiment, at least there's one nearby they can connect with.

One of the problems with that though is that regional affiliations can be counter-productive when you're trying to run a big, 'seamless' Army.

I assume this latest effort is to get people thinking more corporately, and outside of regional silos, which our current Admin Divisional struncture (e.g. 3 Div of the West) tends to disincentivize I think.

Yeah but all of our senior leadership stuff is joint anyways. Which I think is the end state of the British “infantry divisions.” I also assume there’s a benefit to running courses jointly and not having a single Bn regiment try and run its own training course.

 

[FJAG]

Day by day I have a better liking for the American's numbered battalions in numbered regiments with a nickname that you put on small enamel plate on your chest and where you post people around as needed and stand up, stand down and repurpose battalions as needed and the biggest uniform affectation is cavalry wearing cowboy hats and yellow bandanas with their ACUs.

 

[Kirkhill]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1630529024005906433

This is the replacement for the Gepard - Skyranger and Skynex.

The turret is the same Millenium 35 turret (I believe) as found on HDMS Absolon in the B and X positions.

L-16 F-341 HDMS Absalon Frigate Command Support Ship RDN

f-341 hdms absalon l-16 frigate command support ship royal danish navy kongelige danske marine

www.seaforces.org

More opportunity for common acquisitions in the GBAD roles of the RCA with the RCN and the RCAF.

 

[Ostrozac]

One notable exception - try taking the train from Manchester to Leeds. 35.69 miles.

The Transpennine Express will do that trip in under an hour, which isn’t too bad, as it’s faster than driving. That’s probably never going to improve — no one’s laying high speed rail through the Peak District. Looks reasonably priced, too, by British standards.

 

[ArmyRick]

Day by day I have a better liking for the American's numbered battalions in numbered regiments with a nickname that you put on small enamel plate on your chest and where you post people around as needed and stand up, stand down and repurpose battalions as needed and the biggest uniform affectation is cavalry wearing cowboy hats and yellow bandanas with their ACUs.

The regimental system/family/mafia seems to have more negatives than positives about it.

Ahhh well, I should't complain. Afterall it was great having a Lt Col lead 50 guys in the field. That is part of the symptoms of "sacred cows" like historical regiments and the like.

 

[FJAG]

The regimental system/family/mafia seems to have more negatives than positives about it.

Ahhh well, I should't complain. Afterall it was great having a Lt Col lead 50 guys in the field. That is part of the symptoms of "sacred cows" like historical regiments and the like.

You had an atypical experience.

Generally in those regiments they have a lieutenant lead the 50 folks in the field while the Lieutenant-Colonel stays in the office and does reports on band uniforms.

 

[GR66]

Maybe a solution might be a little bit of "Column A" (Reg Force/Reserve Force integration into "Total Force" units) and a little bit of "Column B" (properly trained and equipped Reserve Force units capable of deployment).

The units of the CBGs that are geographically surrounding the existing Reg Force Brigades could be integrated directly into the Reg Force units as augmentees filling out Platoon/Troop/Battery positions in a 70/30 or 30/70 type structure depending on the specific unit requirements.

• 33 CBG units would integrate into 2 CMBG units in Petawawa
• 35 CBG units would integrate into 5e Brigade units in Valcartier/Quebec
• 37 CBG units would integrate into 2 CMBG/CCSB units in Gagetown
• 38 CBG units would integrate into 1 CMBG units in Shilo
• 41 CBG units would integrate into 1 CMBG units in Edmonton

That leaves the following CBG's that are in the most densely populated areas of Canada:

• 31 CBG - London
• 32 CBG - Toronto
• 34 CBG - Montreal
• 36 CBG - Halifax
• 39 CBG - Vancouver

Each of these CBGs could have their existing Regiments re-grouped into individual Battalions/Regiments to form a Reserve Brigade Group under a Reg Force Brigade & Battalion HQ structure. The goal of this Reserve Brigade could initially be to deploy individual Light units/augmentees in support of a deployed Reg Force Brigade but eventually the goal would be to acquire enough vehicles and equipment to mechanize the Brigade as a force expansion/force sustainment option. The large population centers of these areas should allow for enough recruiting for fully manned units and also provide the resources for proper support structures.

 

[ArmyRick]

You had an atypical experience.

Generally in those regiments they have a lieutenant lead the 50 folks in the field while the Lieutenant-Colonel stays in the office and does reports on band uniforms.

Actually in my last 6 years in the P Res, every exercise was a whole different ORBAT experience. 1 x Ex we actually had a 2 small platoon company (woo hoo), then two exercises later, we have 2 section soldiers in a platoon for a patroling ex meanwhile in the CP, we had 2 of us WO, an MWO, the CO, the OPS O, the adj, the RQ. We took turns manning the range control radio and shooting the shit. Alot. Many of war stories told.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The regimental system/family/mafia seems to have more negatives than positives about it.

Ahhh well, I should't complain. Afterall it was great having a Lt Col lead 50 guys in the field. That is part of the symptoms of "sacred cows" like historical regiments and the like.

Wait, you had a CO that went into the field ... with the troops?

But the RSSO was still home guarding the TV all weekend, as is the tradition, right?

 

[KevinB]

Maybe a solution might be a little bit of "Column A" (Reg Force/Reserve Force integration into "Total Force" units) and a little bit of "Column B" (properly trained and equipped Reserve Force units capable of deployment).

The units of the CBGs that are geographically surrounding the existing Reg Force Brigades could be integrated directly into the Reg Force units as augmentees filling out Platoon/Troop/Battery positions in a 70/30 or 30/70 type structure depending on the specific unit requirements.

• 33 CBG units would integrate into 2 CMBG units in Petawawa
• 35 CBG units would integrate into 5e Brigade units in Valcartier/Quebec
• 37 CBG units would integrate into 2 CMBG/CCSB units in Gagetown
• 38 CBG units would integrate into 1 CMBG units in Shilo
• 41 CBG units would integrate into 1 CMBG units in Edmonton

That leaves the following CBG's that are in the most densely populated areas of Canada:

• 31 CBG - London
• 32 CBG - Toronto
• 34 CBG - Montreal
• 36 CBG - Halifax
• 39 CBG - Vancouver

Each of these CBGs could have their existing Regiments re-grouped into individual Battalions/Regiments to form a Reserve Brigade Group under a Reg Force Brigade & Battalion HQ structure. The goal of this Reserve Brigade could initially be to deploy individual Light units/augmentees in support of a deployed Reg Force Brigade but eventually the goal would be to acquire enough vehicles and equipment to mechanize the Brigade as a force expansion/force sustainment option. The large population centers of these areas should allow for enough recruiting for fully manned units and also provide the resources for proper support structures.

You can’t really think the PRes could do that.

 

[GR66]

You can’t really think the PRes could do that.

In reality they actually are already...just really inefficiently. Our Reg Force units are only manned to 70% and require Reserve augmentation to deploy already, so formalizing the integration of the nearby units directly into the Reg Force units (say a single 30/70 Company per Battalion equivalent?) simply cuts out the middle man (and Reserve HQ overhead).

Realistically the rest of the Reserve units are too far away from the Reg Force units to efficiently integrate but are fortunately(?) located in the most population dense parts of the country. We know that there are already too many small Reserve units so re-organizing them into a small number of Battalions under Reg Force HQs just makes sense.

The units in this Reserve Brigade don't have any heavy vehicles/weapons currently and almost certainly won't for quite some time, so organizing them as Light role units fits in with their current equipment and training capabilities. They can continue to be a source if individual augmentees for Reg Force deployments as they are now, but under Reg Force leadership can start training for the capability of deployment at sub-unit and eventually unit levels. For example they could Force Protection Companies to accompany a Reg Force deployment (eventually even full Battalions in the FP role or even as combat elements for a deployed Reg Force Light Brigade).

If at any time in the future the GOC/Army see fit to secure enough vehicles to properly outfit the Reserve Brigade with vehicles and heavy weapons then by that time we should hopefully be able to put in place the support systems required (or at the very least centralize the equipment with the Reg Force and have it on hand for work-up training for a required Reserve call-up).

 

[KevinB]

In reality they actually are already...just really inefficiently. Our Reg Force units are only manned to 70% and require Reserve augmentation to deploy already, so formalizing the integration of the nearby units directly into the Reg Force units (say a single 30/70 Company per Battalion equivalent?) simply cuts out the middle man (and Reserve HQ overhead).

Realistically the rest of the Reserve units are too far away from the Reg Force units to efficiently integrate but are fortunately(?) located in the most population dense parts of the country. We know that there are already too many small Reserve units so re-organizing them into a small number of Battalions under Reg Force HQs just makes sense.

The units in this Reserve Brigade don't have any heavy vehicles/weapons currently and almost certainly won't for quite some time, so organizing them as Light role units fits in with their current equipment and training capabilities. They can continue to be a source if individual augmentees for Reg Force deployments as they are now, but under Reg Force leadership can start training for the capability of deployment at sub-unit and eventually unit levels. For example they could Force Protection Companies to accompany a Reg Force deployment (eventually even full Battalions in the FP role or even as combat elements for a deployed Reg Force Light Brigade).

If at any time in the future the GOC/Army see fit to secure enough vehicles to properly outfit the Reserve Brigade with vehicles and heavy weapons then by that time we should hopefully be able to put in place the support systems required (or at the very least centralize the equipment with the Reg Force and have it on hand for work-up training for a required Reserve call-up).

My point was toward the separate REAL Brigade’s.
To me that is a fools errand, the only way the ARNG works now is all the officers have Res Commissions, and GWOT was a great trial by fire. The PRes doesn’t have the depth of experience in the SNCO and SrO levels to do much beyond a Coy.

 

[GR66]

My point was toward the separate REAL Brigade’s.
To me that is a fools errand, the only way the ARNG works now is all the officers have Res Commissions, and GWOT was a great trial by fire. The PRes doesn’t have the depth of experience in the SNCO and SrO levels to do much beyond a Coy.

Which is why I suggested that the Reserve units should have a Reg Force Brigade and Battalion HQ structure. Ties the units together under Reg Force direction and unified training, gives you an additional deployable Brigade HQ (plus several Battle Group HQs) if required and provides a pool of senior Reg Force officer and NCM positions to provide depth of experienced personnel to draw on if we ever have to face to prospect of combat losses.