• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Informing the Army’s Future Structure

A detail breakdown of the Brigade Combat Team down here
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN31505-FM_3-96-000-WEB-1.pdf

The IBCT's and SBCT's each have 3 Inf Battalions -- the ABCT does not - as it has 3 Combined Arms Battalions, 1 Inf Heavy and 2 Armor Heavy.

When you start to dig into the constructs, once can see that Canada's Army is significantly Infantry heavy compared to the US Army.
- each Bde has 3 x 6 gun close support batteries, the gap widens from there.
You could equally say that Canada's Army is significantly armour/artillery light compared to the US Army.

I'm certainly not saying that an Infantry-heavy Brigade is the only option that Canada COULD go with, but I guess I'm saying that an Infantry-heavy Brigade is the only option Canada CAN go with based on the equipment we have currently. And I don't see any programs on the books to increase the number of tanks we have, so....
 
You could equally say that Canada's Army is significantly armour/artillery light compared to the US Army.

I'm certainly not saying that an Infantry-heavy Brigade is the only option that Canada COULD go with, but I guess I'm saying that an Infantry-heavy Brigade is the only option Canada CAN go with based on the equipment we have currently. And I don't see any programs on the books to increase the number of tanks we have, so....

I remember that movie! ;)

 
You could equally say that Canada's Army is significantly armour/artillery light compared to the US Army.
No Armor exists in the SBCT or IBCT's currently (thought the Light Tank Program will most likely change that).

I'm certainly not saying that an Infantry-heavy Brigade is the only option that Canada COULD go with, but I guess I'm saying that an Infantry-heavy Brigade is the only option Canada CAN go with based on the equipment we have currently. And I don't see any programs on the books to increase the number of tanks we have, so....
The CA has continually screwed itself in the drive for Symmetry, and divesting PY's for a variety of rather bizarre reasons.
 
The ABCT to my count has 84 Abrams tanks.
6 Companies of them @ 14 / Coy (4 / Platoon and 2 in HQ)
1 Company in the Inf Heavy Bn, 2 Coy each in the Armor Heavy Bn, and 1 in the Cav Squadron.

So unless my count is off (and it very well could be) - Canada does have enough tanks to create an Armoured Brigade out of 1 CMBG.

But the wheels fall off is one is honestly looking at the requirement of a fully kitted out BCT, I don't think Canada could field more than 1, and then would have some significant gaps.

For reasons I don't pretend to understand Canada seems to beat to it's own drum and prefers to make believe that it has multiple Brigades that are capable of operations....
 
The ABCT to my count has 84 Abrams tanks.
6 Companies of them @ 14 / Coy (4 / Platoon and 2 in HQ)
1 Company in the Inf Heavy Bn, 2 Coy each in the Armor Heavy Bn, and 1 in the Cav Squadron.

So unless my count is off (and it very well could be) - Canada does have enough tanks to create an Armoured Brigade out of 1 CMBG.

But the wheels fall off is one is honestly looking at the requirement of a fully kitted out BCT, I don't think Canada could field more than 1, and then would have some significant gaps.

For reasons I don't pretend to understand Canada seems to beat to it's own drum and prefers to make believe that it has multiple Brigades that are capable of operations....
By my count 2 tanks short for an ABCT (20 x 2A6M's, 20 x 2A4M's and 42 x 2A4's retained for training purposes according to Wikipedia) and that assumes that all are serviceable, none for the schools, etc., the doctrinal squadron size reduced from 19 to 14 and even that only gets you at the start line on Day 1.

No spares to cover combat/mechanical losses, so your one ABCT is unsustainable so would begin degrading in combat ability immediately. Pretty soon you'd end up with exactly what is being complained about...and Infantry Brigade (but now an understrength one compared to a CMBG).
 
No Armor exists in the SBCT or IBCT's currently (thought the Light Tank Program will most likely change that).

You mean the new SturmGeschutz? The tracked MGS? The Infantry Support Tank?

At the scale of 1 battalion per division?


These will not be turning the Light and Airborne Divisions into Shock and Awe assets. Not with a Battalion per Division designed to be penny-packeted out to the Brigades at the rate of 1 Company per Brigade. A Company which will require a minimum of 7 C17s to land and unload the MPFs at the rated of two per aircraft.

Interesting also that early adopters will be the National Guard.

The CA has continually screwed itself in the drive for Symmetry, and divesting PY's for a variety of rather bizarre reasons.

For sure.
 
In a strict sense you of course are correct, but the number of Infantry Battalions is not really out of line from what the Government says it expects from the Army. Strong, Secure, Engaged states that:

THE BRIGADE GROUP The Army trains to fight at the brigade group-level. This is the minimum level at which it is possible to execute joint campaigns while integrating various components, be they from another service, government department, non-governmental organization, or coalition partner
I find it a contradiction when SSE, in a sidebar, recognizes that a brigade group "is the minimum level at which it is possible to execute joint campaigns" and then sets task that do not go above BG levels - I guess technically they aren't all that joint ... but still.

If you expect the Brigade to consist of 3 x Infantry Battalions and you expect to be able to deploy your Brigade within a reasonable time frame in a crisis (i.e. keeping a portion of your force at heightened readiness) and if you expect to have enough depth in the Army to sustain that Brigade in combat then an Army consisting of 3 x Brigades (9 x Infantry Battalions) is not out of line for that expectation.
I think what @KevinB is pointing out is that a brigade doesn't call for three infantry battalions but three manoeuvre units. That's eventually how 4 CMBG ended up with one tank regiment and two infantry battalions.

I'm really not so sure that you need 3 brigades (9 battalions) to deploy 1 brigade. What you really need is one full brigade group to deploy and then a force generation structure behind that to generate rotos, replacements and lost equipment to keep it up to strength. You do not need a two supporting one structure nor a managed readiness cycle.

If you recall, 1st Canadian Army in Europe had three infantry divisions, 2 armoured divisions, two armoured brigades and a hockey sock of Army and Corps troops in Europe but back in Canada there were only three other divisions and an armoured brigade but there was a force generation structure to replace losses.

I think that the Army has lost the plot. It settled on a RegF army structure several decades ago and have fought ever since to maintain its status quo by finding roles and processes to justify its existence and every PY. We would never have been able to deploy 4 CMBG to Europe if we had sent them on 6 month rotos with a managed readiness program. It would have required 6 brigades to do that. As it stands each corps fights tooth and nail for every PY and every capability in order to maintain its relevance. It needs a review and reality check.

Of course you can adjust the structure of the Brigade which will affect the number of component units you'd need and you can adjust the portion of the Brigade you expect to be available at high readiness for deployment and how quickly you expect to be able to put together the balance of the Brigade (as well as how long you plan to be able to sustain it in combat) which will all affect what portion of the Brigade should be Reg Force and what portion should be Reserves, but overall the basic current structure of the Army broadly reflects the structure you'd need in order to be able to fight a Brigade.
In very broad and general terms I agree with that. The problem is that the devil is in the details - artillery batteries are at 4 guns because M777s require a crew of 10 vice 7 and because each battery had to shift extra people into an expanded FSCC and extra FOO parties. There are now 2 gun batteries in a regiment vice 3 because the Army recognized that Surveillance and Target Acquisition was important. BUT - it wouldn't give one additional PYs to the artillery for those FSCCs or FOOs or STA or gun det members - hence we have a 8 gun regiments rather than an 18 gun one. The Army is trying to squeeze ten pounds of s**t into five pound bags. It will pay for that one day.

You could equally say that Canada's Army is significantly armour/artillery light compared to the US Army.
Interestingly a Canadian brigade seems to be established at 4,800 (as per SSE - I actually think its lighter at around 4,400 established positions but don't have access to the actual numbers these days) and that's considering shortfalls in critical areas that need ResF augmentation. In the US, on the other hand, an ABCT is fully manned at 4,200; an SBCT at 4,440 and an IBCT at 4,230. And they do have 18 gun artillery battalions. So we're already equal to, if not heavier, than a BCT as far as personnel are concerned. Surprisingly though, an SBCT rifle battalion is larger than ours at 780 (inclusive of its Forward Support Company) while Canada's RegF battalions are allocated roughly 600 PYs.

I'm certainly not saying that an Infantry-heavy Brigade is the only option that Canada COULD go with, but I guess I'm saying that an Infantry-heavy Brigade is the only option Canada CAN go with based on the equipment we have currently. And I don't see any programs on the books to increase the number of tanks we have, so....
I think the fallacy is that we look at equipment as the big ticket item when what really cost the big cash is the annual paycheck for the folks manning it. An M777 and a LAV has 10 folks running it. A tank has 4. An ABCT tank company has an establishment of 62 while a rifle company has 135. That's less than half on the recurring paychecks albeit gas is more expensive. Not sure about ammo considering infantry now shoot pretty pricey missiles in training too.

If you go to an SP gun that has a crew of 5 including ammo handlers then you cut the annual recurring personnel costs in half. Even better if 50% of those are properly trained ResF members on a standby status until needed.

There are many places where one can cut personnel costs. Infantry dismounts within a battalion isn't one of those. But does Canada really need nine RegF battalions of infantry and a SOR when our current recurring deployed needs are a half battalion for Latvia and another half battalion of smaller taskings? Or can Canada do it with three or four such battalions and force generate rotations for peacetime missions as required from less expensive ResF or short term contracts soldiers on an as required basis?

Would we be better served by one RegF brigade group which is fully organized, trained and equipped as a deployable combat entity for NATO backed up by two to four primarily ResF brigades (but RegF led) and a second RegF brigade whose role is simply to hold a varying number of unit HQs and RegF personnel whose role is to force generate contingents for specific "peacetime" missions by way of recruiting and ResF mobilization?

:unsure:
 
I find it a contradiction when SSE, in a sidebar, recognizes that a brigade group "is the minimum level at which it is possible to execute joint campaigns" and then sets task that do not go above BG levels - I guess technically they aren't all that joint ... but still.


I think what @KevinB is pointing out is that a brigade doesn't call for three infantry battalions but three manoeuvre units. That's eventually how 4 CMBG ended up with one tank regiment and two infantry battalions.
Agreed. As I mentioned you could absolutely do that but as noted we currently have barely enough tanks to do that with no replacements. With no plans on the books to purchase more tanks it really doesn't make any sense to go that route.
I'm really not so sure that you need 3 brigades (9 battalions) to deploy 1 brigade. What you really need is one full brigade group to deploy and then a force generation structure behind that to generate rotos, replacements and lost equipment to keep it up to strength. You do not need a two supporting one structure nor a managed readiness cycle.

If you recall, 1st Canadian Army in Europe had three infantry divisions, 2 armoured divisions, two armoured brigades and a hockey sock of Army and Corps troops in Europe but back in Canada there were only three other divisions and an armoured brigade but there was a force generation structure to replace losses.

I think that the Army has lost the plot. It settled on a RegF army structure several decades ago and have fought ever since to maintain its status quo by finding roles and processes to justify its existence and every PY. We would never have been able to deploy 4 CMBG to Europe if we had sent them on 6 month rotos with a managed readiness program. It would have required 6 brigades to do that. As it stands each corps fights tooth and nail for every PY and every capability in order to maintain its relevance. It needs a review and reality check.
Again I'll come back to the situation we find ourselves in now. We're talking Force 2025 (or whatever it is now) not "if I were king for a day". Many members here have made it abundantly clear that the Reserves as they are currently structured simply do not have the capability to force generate mechanized units. They could possibly force generate light infantry units but many members more knowledgeable than I question even that.

We can talk about how the whole Reserve system could be changed top to bottom but unfortunately I've heard zero mention of that kind planning in the Force 2025 discussions. I've seen things about moving LAVs around between Battalions and giving the RCAC a Cavalry role, but no mention of additional PY's, moving PY's between the various branches or frankly anything related to the Reserve system overall.

Frankly all the Army is looking at with Force 20xx is how to move the deck chairs around, not how to build a modern and effective Army. Anything we suggest here that goes beyond cosmetic changes is unfortunately more the realm of fantasy than anything that might realistically be implemented by this initiative. Sad but true.
In very broad and general terms I agree with that. The problem is that the devil is in the details - artillery batteries are at 4 guns because M777s require a crew of 10 vice 7 and because each battery had to shift extra people into an expanded FSCC and extra FOO parties. There are now 2 gun batteries in a regiment vice 3 because the Army recognized that Surveillance and Target Acquisition was important. BUT - it wouldn't give one additional PYs to the artillery for those FSCCs or FOOs or STA or gun det members - hence we have a 8 gun regiments rather than an 18 gun one. The Army is trying to squeeze ten pounds of s**t into five pound bags. It will pay for that one day.
Makes a good argument for pulling all of the Artillery Regiments (both Reg Force and Reserve) out of the Brigade Groups and concentrating them in an Artillery Brigade so they can focus on adequate augmentation of the Reg Force Regiments with additional Reserve Batteries.
Interestingly a Canadian brigade seems to be established at 4,800 (as per SSE - I actually think its lighter at around 4,400 established positions but don't have access to the actual numbers these days) and that's considering shortfalls in critical areas that need ResF augmentation. In the US, on the other hand, an ABCT is fully manned at 4,200; an SBCT at 4,440 and an IBCT at 4,230. And they do have 18 gun artillery battalions. So we're already equal to, if not heavier, than a BCT as far as personnel are concerned. Surprisingly though, an SBCT rifle battalion is larger than ours at 780 (inclusive of its Forward Support Company) while Canada's RegF battalions are allocated roughly 600 PYs.
The latest numbers I saw (from Force 2013) give an establishment strength of a Canadian Infantry Battalion of 833 (834 for a Light Battalion) with a Generation strength of 593 (560 for Light Battalions). That could very well have changed.
I think the fallacy is that we look at equipment as the big ticket item when what really cost the big cash is the annual paycheck for the folks manning it. An M777 and a LAV has 10 folks running it. A tank has 4. An ABCT tank company has an establishment of 62 while a rifle company has 135. That's less than half on the recurring paychecks albeit gas is more expensive. Not sure about ammo considering infantry now shoot pretty pricey missiles in training too.

If you go to an SP gun that has a crew of 5 including ammo handlers then you cut the annual recurring personnel costs in half. Even better if 50% of those are properly trained ResF members on a standby status until needed.
100% agreed. Unfortunately we need to see programs to purchase that equipment though before we can realize any PY savings. Not to mention changes to the Reserve system to give them the support they need to manage that equipment.
There are many places where one can cut personnel costs. Infantry dismounts within a battalion isn't one of those. But does Canada really need nine RegF battalions of infantry and a SOR when our current recurring deployed needs are a half battalion for Latvia and another half battalion of smaller taskings? Or can Canada do it with three or four such battalions and force generate rotations for peacetime missions as required from less expensive ResF or short term contracts soldiers on an as required basis?

Would we be better served by one RegF brigade group which is fully organized, trained and equipped as a deployable combat entity for NATO backed up by two to four primarily ResF brigades (but RegF led) and a second RegF brigade whose role is simply to hold a varying number of unit HQs and RegF personnel whose role is to force generate contingents for specific "peacetime" missions by way of recruiting and ResF mobilization?

:unsure:
I'm sure there are multiple ways to achieve a more efficient Army. Unfortunately Force 20xx isn't really looking at that.
 
That’s because a stated constraint of Force 2025 was no increase to PYs… all this discussion exists within that confine. We aren’t going to be magically authorized an increase to 100 000, nor are we getting billions in additional funding. The CAF needs to adjust the CA into a more lethal force within the confines of what it has.
 
... We're talking Force 2025 (or whatever it is now) not "if I were king for a day".
Yup. And it really wasn't Force 2025 I was addressing. IMHO, Force 2025 has died a septic death and we really don't need to concern ourselves more about it. What did peak my interest was the fact that we still have 3 RegF brigades and 9 RegF infantry battalions and I asked myself: why? So I engaged in a bit of devil's advocacy to test the waters.

Frankly all the Army is looking at with Force 20xx is how to move the deck chairs around, not how to build a modern and effective Army.
Exactly. And it will be that way until the CAF gets the idea out of its head that we need a full-time standing army. The money the Army is getting from the government is going to be finite for quite a few years. As long as the Army's fight is to protect PYs, it's budget will be consumed by personnel costs and will prevent it acquiring the equipment and munitions needed to be a credible force. It will forever be like Blanche DuBois and will be 'relying on the kindness of strangers' to provide what Canada won't. I know that the fear is that once you cut back on PYs you'll bever see them again but that's alright as long as the equipment plan stays funded and you develop a better yet effective way to man it.

The latest numbers I saw (from Force 2013) give an establishment strength of a Canadian Infantry Battalion of 833 (834 for a Light Battalion) with a Generation strength of 593 (560 for Light Battalions). That could very well have changed.
Those are the numbers I'm still working off as well

100% agreed. Unfortunately we need to see programs to purchase that equipment though before we can realize any PY savings. Not to mention changes to the Reserve system to give them the support they need to manage that equipment.

I'm sure there are multiple ways to achieve a more efficient Army. Unfortunately Force 20xx isn't really looking at that.
Check, and check.

🍻
 
Multiple armies?

Armies of the demos? The infantry and the cavalry? The cavalry, historically, is the army of the rich demos. They are the armies of the Adjutant-General and the Militia. Sandhurst. Scarlets.

Armies of the ordnance? The commissariat, engineers, artillery, air force and navy? Fortifications and communications? They are the armies of the Master-General of Ordnance and the Arsenal. Woolwich. Blues.

The Scarlets rely on the taxpayers. The Blues rely on the taxes.

Even under the current conditions the Brits are still de-emphasising the Scarlets to emphasise the Blues.

Ukraine is demonstrating that the Arsenal takes longer to replenish than the Militia. It used to be that it took longer to train the Ordnance than the Militia but technology (smart-technology, plug-and-play, user-friendly) and a better qualified demos (cell phone and computer operators, gamers, drivers) is narrowing that gap.

But technology, the Ordnance, is still about taxes. Fighting is still about taxpayers and the MIlitia.

How many taxpayers, how much of the Militia, should be kept on strength permanently?

The more of the Militia on strength the fewer taxpayers there are to pay taxes and keep the Ordnance supplied.
 
That’s because a stated constraint of Force 2025 was no increase to PYs… all this discussion exists within that confine. We aren’t going to be magically authorized an increase to 100 000, nor are we getting billions in additional funding. The CAF needs to adjust the CA into a more lethal force within the confines of what it has.

You mean 'we have to agree amongst ourselves', which is the hardest thing imaginable to do but spectacular to watch ;)

Mad Lou Piniella GIF by YES Network
 
Are you guys suggesting that the real purpose of the Army isn't to have and maintain the Army? What other possible purpose could there be???
 
So let's assume the Army does the easiest deck chair shuffle and makes 1 Bde all LAV with all the tanks concentrated in the Strathconas as a "Heavy" Brigade, 2 Bde becomes all "Light" and 5 Bde gets LAVs and a Cavalry Regiment in the 12 RBC.

How many Reg Force Battalions (and at what manning level) should be in each?
 
Back
Top