Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[FJAG]

But what is artillery? Is it the Russians pounding cities and empty fields with tonnes of hand-bombed HE?

Or is it the Ukrainians observing and correcting every round and using all the precision guided munitions they can lay their hands on?

I could argue that the Ukranians have swapped man-portable PGMs for artillery launched PGMs.

For every precision artillery round they are firing they are firing a hundred dumb projectiles.

The answer is artillery is both. Remember that there is a difference between 'destruction' missions and 'neutralization' missions. The difference is still relevant and the cost and limited number of precision projectiles still makes it impossible to destroy everything.

Cost is one of the reasons I tend to favour guided or autonomous loitering munitions to cannon launched precision rounds. If the cost eventually balances out I might change my mind but even then, a radar isn't about to pick up and hone in on the launching point of certain loitering munitions as easily as it will on a cannon or mortar launched round.

There's a big balancing act that needs to be done here.

 

[Kirkhill]

For every precision artillery round they are firing they are firing a hundred dumb projectiles.

The answer is artillery is both. Remember that there is a difference between 'destruction' missions and 'neutralization' missions. The difference is still relevant and the cost and limited number of precision projectiles still makes it impossible to destroy everything.

Cost is one of the reasons I tend to favour guided or autonomous loitering munitions to cannon launched precision rounds. If the cost eventually balances out I might change my mind but even then, a radar isn't about to pick up and hone in on the launching point of certain loitering munitions as easily as it will on a cannon or mortar launched round.

There's a big balancing act that needs to be done here.

They may be firing dumb projectiles but they are observing and correcting their fall. They are reducing their usage of even their dumb rounds. The Russians seem to be in spray and pray mode.

 

[GR66]

They may be firing dumb projectiles but they are observing and correcting their fall. They are reducing their usage of even their dumb rounds. The Russians seem to be in spray and pray mode.

Who says the Ukrainians aren't also using "spray and pray" fire? Just because they're only showing the precision strikes doesn't mean those are the only type of strikes they are making.

I'm definitely pro-precision fires...but backed up by crap-loads of non-precision for when you need it.

 

[Kirkhill]

The HIMARS appears to have been used in a massive strike against a warehouse in the town of Nova Kakhovka in the Kherson region on Monday night. The strike set off secondary explosions and caused widespread damage, according to satellite imagery reviewed by CNN. The imagery showed how precise the attack had been, leaving just one small crater.

Ukraine's new US rockets are causing fresh problems for Russia

There's a new and potentially very significant factor in the Ukrainian conflict: the Ukrainians' ability to use recently supplied Western systems to hit Russian command posts, logistical hubs and ammunition dumps a long way beyond the front lines.

www.cnn.com

 

[Kirkhill]

Who says the Ukrainians aren't also using "spray and pray" fire? Just because they're only showing the precision strikes doesn't mean those are the only type of strikes they are making.

I'm definitely pro-precision fires...but backed up by crap-loads of non-precision for when you need it.

Do the Ukrainians have the supply lines to support a spray and pray programme? I don't believe so from the reports.

 

[Kirkhill]

Incoming

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/vyylu0

Outgoing (single gun!)

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/vyx7zw

 

[Kirkhill]

In amongst the propaganda...

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/vyo42w

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/vyfkz7

 

[markppcli]

Or maybe I am just reading too much into what the Ukraine battlefield is showing us.

More the Ukrainian memefield

 

[McG]

Kirkhill, did you intend to put those posts on Putin’s invasion in another thread?

… or is there a point on Canadian force structures that you are hoping we will devine?

 

[FJAG]

So, I'm a little bored and do some surfing of the Canadian Army Website about the "Army of Today".

Apparently under the tab for "Organization" and that of the "Regular Force" it says we have an air defence regiment.

As well, there is an engineer support regiment, air defence regiment, and electronic warfare squadron.

Who knew?

 

[GK .Dundas]

I suspect that the Air Defence Regiment currently is based in somewhere in
somebody's desk drawer.in NDHQ.

 

[Kirkhill]

Kirkhill, did you intend to put those posts on Putin’s invasion in another thread?

… or is there a point on Canadian force structures that you are hoping we will devine

Sorry - got carried away on the artillery point. The discussion moved into the precision vs mass field and I found myself cherry picking some anecdotes from Ukraine about the quality of the Russian fire support vice the Ukrainians. If we can believe published "intercepts" then it appears that the Russians are none too impressed with their own guns and technology (missing the target by a grid square and arriving a day late). Meanwhile the Ukrainians, reportedly, are able to accurately engage with a mortar and a drone.

 

[Skysix]

Sorry - got carried away on the artillery point. The discussion moved into the precision vs mass field and I found myself cherry picking some anecdotes from Ukraine about the quality of the Russian fire support vice the Ukrainians. If we can believe published "intercepts" then it appears that the Russians are none too impressed with their own guns and technology (missing the target by a grid square and arriving a day late). Meanwhile the Ukrainians, reportedly, are able to accurately engage with a mortar and a drone.

@Kirkhill have you seen this analysis?

 

[markppcli]

Apparently under the tab for "Organization" and that of the "Regular Force" it says we have an air defence regiment.

Dress for the job you want ?

 

[Kirkhill]

@Kirkhill have you seen this analysis?

Thanks for the reference

 

[FJAG]

Dress for the job you want ?

My guess is that no one who really knows what the force structure is has looked at that web page since 2014 when 4 AD changed its name and function to 4 RCA(GS).

 

[dapaterson]

And note that a change of name of a parent formation means that all subordinate units must have their MOOs and CFOOs amended as well to reflect that change.

 

[FJAG]

And note that a change of name of a parent formation means that all subordinate units must have their MOOs and CFOOs amended as well to reflect that change.

Which brings up another point. 4 RCA(GS) is a renaming/rebranding of 4 AD, which if I'm not mistaken was actually organized as a ResF regiment and as part of the ResF when it was re-established in 1995 notwithstanding its high RegF manning and subsequent ash-canning of its ResF members. I'm not sure if that was ever changed or enshrined in its CFOOs/MOOs.

Have we found the Army's equivalent of the Navy's unenshrined rank name changes?

 

[dapaterson]

4 AD was Reg F; 1 AD (L&R Scots), the unit in Quebec, and the unit in AB were all Res F.

4 GS is Reg F.

 

[Infanteer]

Sorry - got carried away on the artillery point. The discussion moved into the precision vs mass field and I found myself cherry picking some anecdotes from Ukraine about the quality of the Russian fire support vice the Ukrainians. If we can believe published "intercepts" then it appears that the Russians are none too impressed with their own guns and technology (missing the target by a grid square and arriving a day late). Meanwhile the Ukrainians, reportedly, are able to accurately engage with a mortar and a drone.

You are indeed cherry picking. No single round sniping here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1548043185795895296