Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[Fabius]

We had the Leo 2s since let's say 2010 ( there are nuances to that date as we had them before then but they were on loan)

Regardless in the decade and a bit since we fielded the Leo to we can still barely keep them running in a sustainable way. We have barely even addressed a number of the concerns including recovery, transportation, overhaul and most importantly infrastructure needed to support tanks. We have we have stretched the technician line to the point that the Canadian Army almost individually manages technicians that are qualified to repair tanks. We have no capacity to turn that all over and ramp up another line without some significant significant effort.

I know war might be that significant effort but we're not at that stage nor do I think we will go down that road anytime soon.

Its a sad commentary on the state of DND, the CAF and the Army when that is the reality. We can't sort out a relatively small capability on one item in a longer period of time than it took to mobilize the state and defeat the axis powers in WW2.
If we were a corporation that would result in the CEO, CFO, half the executive and likely some of the board of directors being fired/replaced. lol

What makes the F2025 plan more likely to succeed?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Its a sad commentary on the state of DND, the CAF and the Army when that is the reality. We can't sort out a relatively small capability on one item in a longer period of time than it took to mobilize the state and defeat the axis powers in WW2.
If we were a corporation that would result in the CEO, CFO, half the executive and likely some of the board of directors being fired/replaced. lol

 

[KevinB]

Its a sad commentary on the state of DND, the CAF and the Army when that is the reality. We can't sort out a relatively small capability on one item in a longer period of time than it took to mobilize the state and defeat the axis powers in WW2.
If we were a corporation that would result in the CEO, CFO, half the executive and likely some of the board of directors being fired/replaced. lol

What makes the F2025 plan more likely to succeed?

The glossy paper it was printed on...

 

[daftandbarmy]

The glossy paper it was printed on...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

How about a civilian manned facility where the tanks are rotated through frequently for upgrades and new parts, reducing the line maintenance burden on the military maintainers?

 

[KevinB]

How about a civilian manned facility where the tanks are rotated through frequently for upgrades and new parts, reducing the line maintenance burden on the military maintainers?

Like most other NATO countries do...

 

[FJAG]

How about a civilian manned facility where the tanks are rotated through frequently for upgrades and new parts, reducing the line maintenance burden on the military maintainers?

I kind of like military maintainers because you can take them to war with you. That said, a good static and well equipped civilian maintenance facility with a stable workforce is very valuable.

 

[Kirkhill]

I kind of like military maintainers because you can take them to war with you. That said, a good static and well equipped civilian maintenance facility with a stable workforce is very valuable.

Even in a production plant I prefer an idle, on line spare to waiting for a mechanic to fix a pump and get my plant up and running again.

 

[dapaterson]

How about a civilian manned facility where the tanks are rotated through frequently for upgrades and new parts, reducing the line maintenance burden on the military maintainers?

We could call it 202 workshop, and locate it in Longue Pointe.

 

[Kirkhill]

Rheinmetall

Rheinmetall Canada offers various services like Industrial and Technological Benefits Management (ITBs), in-service support/ILS , and subassemblies.

www.rheinmetall.ca

 

[MJP]

How about a civilian manned facility where the tanks are rotated through frequently for upgrades and new parts, reducing the line maintenance burden on the military maintainers?

That is exactly what they're doing. A decade and a half later than it probably should have been put in place. Essentially because they burnt out every maintainer across the CAF that had a tank qualification and on top of it we just literally don't have the infrastructure to do that kind of repair and overhaul work.

We could call it 202 workshop, and locate it in Longue Pointe.

Even they don't have the capacity to take care of the tanks.

As Kevin said, regular R&O at a civilian facility needs to be part and parcel of the program. Every other NATO country seems to grasp this concept except us. We tried to do it on the cheap or more likely "Oh we'll just get to it later" and in doing so did some serious damage to the fleet and our people

 

[Kirkhill]

That is exactly what they're doing. A decade and a half later than it probably should have been put in place. Essentially because they burnt out every maintainer across the CAF that had a tank qualification and on top of it we just literally don't have the infrastructure to do that kind of repair and overhaul work.


Even they don't have the capacity to take care of the tanks.

As Kevin said, regular R&O at a civilian facility needs to be part and parcel of the program. Every other NATO country seems to grasp this concept except us. We tried to do it on the cheap or more likely "Oh we'll just get to it later" and in doing so did some serious damage to the fleet and our people

Rule of three applies - Grandma's version

One on, one in the wash, one in the drawer.

For every vehicle you field you need two more. One being used, one being maintained and one in nice pristine condition ready to go.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That is exactly what they're doing. A decade and a half later than it probably should have been put in place. Essentially because they burnt out every maintainer across the CAF that had a tank qualification and on top of it we just literally don't have the infrastructure to do that kind of repair and overhaul work.


Even they don't have the capacity to take care of the tanks.

As Kevin said, regular R&O at a civilian facility needs to be part and parcel of the program. Every other NATO country seems to grasp this concept except us. We tried to do it on the cheap or more likely "Oh we'll just get to it later" and in doing so did some serious damage to the fleet and our people

Not to mention a mountain of spares, including extra engine packs, several extra turrets. With extra turrets and packs, you can upgrade those at your leisure, replace the packs, final drives, torsion bars, wheels and tracks, do some upgrades to the hull, drop the new turret in and out it goes, that turret goes for refurbishment and upgrades.
At first you be behind and eat a lot of parts, but eventually the operational rate of the tanks and the condition of the vehicles coming in will be improved, so your costs go down again.

 

[Fabius]

Any idea where the civilian maint facility will be?

 

[MJP]

Any idea where the civilian maint facility will be?

I don't think the project has gone to tender so unable to give definitive answer but likely either Germany or Bathhurst NB given that FFG is our main supplier for the tanks. I think it will really boil down to if the NB facility can be upgraded (if needed) and the amount of CANCON needed on the project

 

[Fabius]

Thanks, interesting but not surprising that it’s no where close to where the tanks are based. Hopefully it will at least be in NB vs Germany.

 

[MJP]

Thanks, interesting but not surprising that it’s no where close to where the tanks are based. Hopefully it will at least be in NB vs Germany.

Many countries R&O lines are no where near where tanks are used, it is a red herring. Hell many heavy equip R&O lines are not near their customers or their customers are too spread out. Transport generally isn't that expensive or at least isn't the expensive aspect of R&O or overly hard to do. Only the CAF struggles to send heavy equipment to far flung places, industry seems to be able to do it with ease.

What would make no sense is to build infrastructure from scratch just to support closeness. Unless forced too companies are smart and will leverage/upgrade already owned infra vice building new.

 

[GK .Dundas]

We really did miss out back in the day when we cancelled those 300 M1A1HA .But we really needed to.save that money and it's not like the Russians are really a threat.

 

[McG]

I don't think the project has gone to tender so unable to give definitive answer but likely either Germany or Bathhurst NB given that FFG is our main supplier for the tanks. I think it will really boil down to if the NB facility can be upgraded (if needed) and the amount of CANCON needed on the project

Biggest down side of NB is that our AEV are so heavy that QC will not accept them as highway loads for months around spring and fall each year.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

We really did miss out back in the day when we cancelled those 300 M1A1HA .But we really needed to.save that money and it's not like the Russians are really a threat.

I bet a lot of people in DND/CAF are eating g crow over that prevailing sentiment.