India (Superthread)
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Good intel from a man who knows
http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2007/03/india_and_pakis_1.php
Archives > March 19, 2007
INDIA AND PAKISTAN HEAD IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS
NEW DELHI - This week, India’s feisty press was gleefully speculating that Pakistan’s embattled President Pervez Musharraf, better known here as `Mush,’ was about to be kicked out by his erstwhile patrons in Washington and replaced by another senior general deemed even more responsive to US policy.
There is indeed growing anger at Musharraf in Washington. The Bush Administration, stuck in an aimless war in Afghanistan, blames Musharraf for its problems and for not crushing Pashtun resistance in Pakistan’s tribal belt. But he has already pushed Pakistan close to civil war in an effort to answer US demands. It’s getting hard to tell who is angrier at the beleaguered general, his own people or Washington.
This week, in an amazingly obtuse move, Musharraf sacked his nation’s respected chief justice, Iftikhar Chaudhry, for daring to inquire into the fate of political prisoners. This disgraceful act, and new press restrictions, ended any democratic pretenses by Musharraf’s regime and left Pakistan looking like a banana republic. It also stood in glaring contrast to India’s vibrant democracy, free press and independent judiciary.
High level sources here tell me Indian PM Manmohan Singh’s able government feels there’s little point conducting serious negotiations with Musharraf over divided Kashmir since he is on the defensive and in deep disfavor with the US. In any event, India has no intention whatsoever of acceding to Musharraf’s latest idea for some sort of autonomy in its portion of Kashmir.
India already has what it wants in Kashmir and sees no reason to negotiate it away. With Musharraf and Pakistan now in the US dog house, Delhi is even less inclined to offer meaningful concessions to Pakistan beyond more confidence building measures and making the Line of Control more porous to trade and travel.
Significantly, Delhi has also concluded that the US and NATO war to dominate Afghanistan has failed. The western powers will withdraw their troops, sooner, think Indian strategists, than later.
India should know. It has hundreds of agents from its intelligence agency, RAW, inside Afghanistan and has spent nearly $1 billion there for `reconstruction,’ a euphemism for renting influence with anti-Pakistani Tajiks, Hazara, and Uzbeks.
More at link
http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2007/03/india_and_pakis_1.php
Archives > March 19, 2007
INDIA AND PAKISTAN HEAD IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS
NEW DELHI - This week, India’s feisty press was gleefully speculating that Pakistan’s embattled President Pervez Musharraf, better known here as `Mush,’ was about to be kicked out by his erstwhile patrons in Washington and replaced by another senior general deemed even more responsive to US policy.
There is indeed growing anger at Musharraf in Washington. The Bush Administration, stuck in an aimless war in Afghanistan, blames Musharraf for its problems and for not crushing Pashtun resistance in Pakistan’s tribal belt. But he has already pushed Pakistan close to civil war in an effort to answer US demands. It’s getting hard to tell who is angrier at the beleaguered general, his own people or Washington.
This week, in an amazingly obtuse move, Musharraf sacked his nation’s respected chief justice, Iftikhar Chaudhry, for daring to inquire into the fate of political prisoners. This disgraceful act, and new press restrictions, ended any democratic pretenses by Musharraf’s regime and left Pakistan looking like a banana republic. It also stood in glaring contrast to India’s vibrant democracy, free press and independent judiciary.
High level sources here tell me Indian PM Manmohan Singh’s able government feels there’s little point conducting serious negotiations with Musharraf over divided Kashmir since he is on the defensive and in deep disfavor with the US. In any event, India has no intention whatsoever of acceding to Musharraf’s latest idea for some sort of autonomy in its portion of Kashmir.
India already has what it wants in Kashmir and sees no reason to negotiate it away. With Musharraf and Pakistan now in the US dog house, Delhi is even less inclined to offer meaningful concessions to Pakistan beyond more confidence building measures and making the Line of Control more porous to trade and travel.
Significantly, Delhi has also concluded that the US and NATO war to dominate Afghanistan has failed. The western powers will withdraw their troops, sooner, think Indian strategists, than later.
India should know. It has hundreds of agents from its intelligence agency, RAW, inside Afghanistan and has spent nearly $1 billion there for `reconstruction,’ a euphemism for renting influence with anti-Pakistani Tajiks, Hazara, and Uzbeks.
More at link
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Interesting. I never knew that India had 'Commandos', nor that they had workers there in Afghanistan that were working on building roads. Good read.
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Yeah after some research the Indian commandos are MARCOS.
My apologies on the spelling, forgot to give it a look over. Douke, you are largely right that the Ghurkas are from Nepal, though they have traditionally served with the Indian Army, and I believe that a small portion of the Ghurkas are from India. Though, I'm a bit out my lane in that regard.
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Ahh typos happens! I am not a huge history expert either, but it is possible since India was part of the British empire at that time. But I know for sure that Ghurka is a Nepalese word and that it is the designation for Nepal commandos serving the British crown.
exspy
Full Member
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Kirkhill,
I know that India has a large and effective military which includes paratroops, special forces etc and an equally large national police force with various special operations capabilities. I have never, until now, heard of the para-military commandos of the ITBP.
Well just a short internet search later and I've found out about the Indo-Tibetan Border Police or ITBP. They are a sub-service of the Indian Police Service (IPS) which is India's national force.
QUOTE:
The ITBP is trained in mountaineering, disaster management, and nuclear, biological and chemical disasters. ITBP personnel have been deployed abroad to UN peacekeeping missions in Bosnia and elsewhere.
and
ITBP Commando units provice security to the Embassy and consulates of India in Afghanistan. Besides this two Companies of the ITBP are providing security in Afghanistan.
UNQUOTE.
It was the para-military commandos aspect of the news article which piqued my curiosity. I could not understand why Pakistan would not be raising holy hell with the stationing of Indian troops, albeit in minuscule numbers, on its western border.
Like you said, an interesting summer is coming.
Dan.
I know that India has a large and effective military which includes paratroops, special forces etc and an equally large national police force with various special operations capabilities. I have never, until now, heard of the para-military commandos of the ITBP.
Well just a short internet search later and I've found out about the Indo-Tibetan Border Police or ITBP. They are a sub-service of the Indian Police Service (IPS) which is India's national force.
QUOTE:
The ITBP is trained in mountaineering, disaster management, and nuclear, biological and chemical disasters. ITBP personnel have been deployed abroad to UN peacekeeping missions in Bosnia and elsewhere.
and
ITBP Commando units provice security to the Embassy and consulates of India in Afghanistan. Besides this two Companies of the ITBP are providing security in Afghanistan.
UNQUOTE.
It was the para-military commandos aspect of the news article which piqued my curiosity. I could not understand why Pakistan would not be raising holy hell with the stationing of Indian troops, albeit in minuscule numbers, on its western border.
Like you said, an interesting summer is coming.
Dan.
Retired AF Guy
Army.ca Veteran
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The official Indian government website has this entry for the ITPB:
Indo-Tibetan Border Police
"The Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) was raised on 21 October 1962 after the Chinese aggression as an integrated intelligence/signal/pioneer/engineering/ medical and guerrilla unit and was initially placed under the Intelligence Bureau for operational control. In 1975 the primary task of the ITBP was redefined as security of northern borders, to check illegal immigration and transborder crimes.
ITBP is given the responsibility of providing security/communication/ medical cover to the pilgrims during Kailash-Mansarover Yatra besides being the Nodal Agency Disaster Management in the Central and Western Himalayan region. The ITBP has 29 battalions including four specialist battalions."
No clarification on what "specialist battalions" are responsible for.
The link is here:
http://india.gov.in/sectors/defence/indo-tibetan_police.php
Indo-Tibetan Border Police
"The Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) was raised on 21 October 1962 after the Chinese aggression as an integrated intelligence/signal/pioneer/engineering/ medical and guerrilla unit and was initially placed under the Intelligence Bureau for operational control. In 1975 the primary task of the ITBP was redefined as security of northern borders, to check illegal immigration and transborder crimes.
ITBP is given the responsibility of providing security/communication/ medical cover to the pilgrims during Kailash-Mansarover Yatra besides being the Nodal Agency Disaster Management in the Central and Western Himalayan region. The ITBP has 29 battalions including four specialist battalions."
No clarification on what "specialist battalions" are responsible for.
The link is here:
http://india.gov.in/sectors/defence/indo-tibetan_police.php
- Reaction score
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Ever since the partition, India has always cultivated friendly relations with Afghanistan. Pakistan's support for the Taliban and radical Mujaheddin forces before them was, in part, to bring Afghanistan into Pakistan's orbit, or at least force them out of India's Sphere of Influence.
Speculation Alert
Having Afghanistan back in the fold may be an important long term goal for India, so I expect to see more aid and trade flowing north, although I suspect any military presence will be very carefully masked. Private security forces (a la the Chinese in the Sudan, or American "security contractors" throughout the third world) may be the preferred MO.
Speculation Alert
Having Afghanistan back in the fold may be an important long term goal for India, so I expect to see more aid and trade flowing north, although I suspect any military presence will be very carefully masked. Private security forces (a la the Chinese in the Sudan, or American "security contractors" throughout the third world) may be the preferred MO.
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I know I'm going off topic here, but can someone give me a link to where this is talked about in much more detail. I have read some stuff on the Chinese involvement with Sudan, but not a whole lot on a Chinese presence there.a_majoor said:
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Yet another reason to continue to peacefully engage with this fellow Commonwealth member nation and emerging superpower.
Indian navy showcases rising might
* Story Highlights
* Indian naval ships in rescues 2,900 kilometers (1,800 miles) from home port
* Country seeks to expand navy from coast guard duties to major military power
* India buying symbols of naval power: aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines
NEW DELHI, India (AP) -- The helicopter carrying Indian commandos swooped in low over the distressed Saudi Arabian chemical tanker, firing its machine guns and sending three speedboats filled with pirates fleeing for the lawless Somali coast.
Indian Naval Ship INS Nashak, with Missile Launchers, takes part in exercises off Porbandar coast in 2006.
Twenty minutes later they rescued a nearby Indian ship, navy officials said, foiling another hijack attempt by a different band of pirates in east African waters of the Indian Ocean.
Tuesday's rescues, by forces based on an Indian warship patrolling some 2,900 kilometers (1,800 miles) from their home port, mark a significant step for the South Asian giant, which is determined to translate its growing economic strength into global military and political clout.
"India now has the demonstrable capacity to project force beyond its border," said Ashok Mehta, a retired Indian army general and leading strategic analyst, adding that this was the first time commandos had been used so far from Indian shores.
At the heart of this effort -- which has seen the country of 1.1 billion people become a nuclear power and actively campaign for a seat on the United Nations Security Council -- is a program to expand the navy from traditional coast guard duties to one of the world's largest sea forces.
Speaking at a recent conference, Indian naval chief Adm. Sureesh Mehta vowed that the navy would ensure "a secure and peaceful environment in the Indian Ocean region and further India's political, economic, diplomatic and military objectives."
In the process, India is acquiring the biggest visible symbols of naval power -- aircraft carriers -- and nuclear submarines.
India plans to have three aircraft carriers at sea in the next decade -- a refurbished Russian one and two made locally.
India is also leasing an advanced Russian Akula-class submarine and designing a homegrown version, the Advanced Technology Vehicle, which is expected to begin sea trials in the next two years after long delays as Indian engineers struggled to miniaturize their nuclear reactor to fit inside the hull.
India's attempts to secure nuclear submarines surfaced this week after 20 people were killed in an accident on a Russian submarine undergoing sea trials Saturday in the Sea of Japan. Russian and Indian media reports said the craft was destined for India, though the Indian navy refused to comment and Russia insisted the sub would be commissioned in its own navy.
However, India's navy chief said last month that a Russian submarine would be used to train the crews that will, eventually, man Indian nuclear subs.
India currently operates 16 diesel-powered submarines.
Nuclear submarines, which can cruise undetected for long periods undersea, have been nuclear deterrents since the early days of the Cold War -- virtually assuring that a country that possesses them can respond to a nuclear attack.
In part, India's efforts are in response to moves by China. The two countries are increasingly competing for influence over vital Indian Ocean shipping lanes, and India fears China's large and increasingly sophisticated submarine fleet.
The U.S. military says China already has eight nuclear submarines, three of which are believed to be able to launch nuclear weapons.
While Indian and Chinese relations are the closest in decades, the Indian military also harbors a long-standing mistrust of China dating back to a brief 1962 border war in which China routed India's forces.
But even as it waits for its aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines, the Indian navy has been slowly expanding its scope of operations. It played a major role in rescue operations during the 2004 tsunami and sent warships to rescue Indians trapped in Lebanon during the 2006 war between Israel and the Hezbollah guerrilla group.
They have also embarked on a series of joint maneuvers with other navies active in the area, particularly the United States.
But Tuesday's missions against pirates marked the first time the navy had fired shots in anger so far from home to protect India's overseas interests.
The Indian warship, the INS Tabar, was dispatched to the Gulf of Aden in October after a spike in piracy and hijackings off the coast of Somalia, which is caught up in an Islamic insurgency and has had no functioning government since 1991.
As of Monday, there have been 83 attacks this year in Somali waters and 12 vessels, including a Ukrainian freighter loaded with tanks and weapons, remain in the hands of pirates. Many of the ships were Indian or had Indian crews.
While several other countries sent warships to the region, India was particularly worried. Much of India's trade and the energy supplies vital to fueling India's economy flow through those waters.
The patrols "are intended to protect Indian merchant vessels from being attacked by pirates and also to instill confidence in our large seafaring community," the navy said in a statement.
And it seems that Indian ships may become regular sights in faraway ports.
"We operate from the Strait of Malacca to the Gulf of Aden," said navy spokesman Commander Nirad Sinha. "Ours is a growing, developing navy."
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/...r.ap/index.html
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Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
Updated Wed. Nov. 26 2008 3:34 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff
At least 78 people have been killed and 200 others wounded after heavily armed gunmen attacked several sites in Mumbai, including two five-star hotels, state officials and media reports said Wednesday.
The attacks also took place at the city's crowded train station, at a police station and at a well-known restaurant popular with foreigners.
Two of the city's landmark hotels, the Taj Mahal and the Oberoi, were targeted, officials said.
Shortly after the hotel attacks, police engaged in a firefight with the gunmen, officer A.N. Roy said.
"The terrorists have used automatic weapons and in some places grenades have been lobbed, the encounters are still going on and we are trying to overpower them," Roy told The Associated Press.
Gunmen also opened fire at a police station in the city's south end.
"We are under fire, there is shooting at the gate," Const. A. Shetti told The Associated Press by phone from the police station.
The street battle continued to rage Wednesday afternoon. Johnny Joseph, a government official for the region of Maharashtra, said at least 90 people have been hurt and that the death toll could rise.
No terrorist groups have yet claimed responsibility for the attacks and a motive wasn't clear Wednesday afternoon.
Janice Sequeira, a tourist who was eating at the Taj Mahal Hotel, said the situation was frightening.
"It was like the sound of loud crackers, not one but several, we just ran out of there," she said. The AP reported that several European lawmakers were staying at the hotel.
According to police, officials blocked off the Oberhoi hotel after gunfire erupted inside. Local media said that two gunmen were still inside the hotel, and that a commando operation had been launched.
Meanwhile, armed men with AK-47 rifles and grenades had barricaded themselves inside the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station, local media reported. The attacks started around 10:00 p.m. local time.
The Times of India reported that the city's police chief, Hemant Karkare, and another top official were killed during the firefight.
The Press Trust of India, a news agency, reported that gunfire had erupted at Leopold's restaurant, forcing customers to panic and flee. Blood stains and bullet holes could also be seen at the site.
Mumbai has been targeted in several attacks since 1993, when Muslim rebels bombed several sites in the city in retaliation for hundreds of Muslim deaths during earlier religious riots.
In 2007, several massive bomb blasts ripped through commuter trains and stations, killing 187.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27928718/
Updated Wed. Nov. 26 2008 3:34 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff
At least 78 people have been killed and 200 others wounded after heavily armed gunmen attacked several sites in Mumbai, including two five-star hotels, state officials and media reports said Wednesday.
The attacks also took place at the city's crowded train station, at a police station and at a well-known restaurant popular with foreigners.
Two of the city's landmark hotels, the Taj Mahal and the Oberoi, were targeted, officials said.
Shortly after the hotel attacks, police engaged in a firefight with the gunmen, officer A.N. Roy said.
"The terrorists have used automatic weapons and in some places grenades have been lobbed, the encounters are still going on and we are trying to overpower them," Roy told The Associated Press.
Gunmen also opened fire at a police station in the city's south end.
"We are under fire, there is shooting at the gate," Const. A. Shetti told The Associated Press by phone from the police station.
The street battle continued to rage Wednesday afternoon. Johnny Joseph, a government official for the region of Maharashtra, said at least 90 people have been hurt and that the death toll could rise.
No terrorist groups have yet claimed responsibility for the attacks and a motive wasn't clear Wednesday afternoon.
Janice Sequeira, a tourist who was eating at the Taj Mahal Hotel, said the situation was frightening.
"It was like the sound of loud crackers, not one but several, we just ran out of there," she said. The AP reported that several European lawmakers were staying at the hotel.
According to police, officials blocked off the Oberhoi hotel after gunfire erupted inside. Local media said that two gunmen were still inside the hotel, and that a commando operation had been launched.
Meanwhile, armed men with AK-47 rifles and grenades had barricaded themselves inside the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station, local media reported. The attacks started around 10:00 p.m. local time.
The Times of India reported that the city's police chief, Hemant Karkare, and another top official were killed during the firefight.
The Press Trust of India, a news agency, reported that gunfire had erupted at Leopold's restaurant, forcing customers to panic and flee. Blood stains and bullet holes could also be seen at the site.
Mumbai has been targeted in several attacks since 1993, when Muslim rebels bombed several sites in the city in retaliation for hundreds of Muslim deaths during earlier religious riots.
In 2007, several massive bomb blasts ripped through commuter trains and stations, killing 187.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27928718/
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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MUslim extermist attempting to incite India to prevent the Pakistan army from pulling resources off the Eastern front to combat Taliban and insugents in the NWF and FATA?
J
jollyjacktar
Guest
Colin P said:
An interesting suggestion and perhaps very valid.
But, I honestly do wonder how much real effort is being expended by the Pakastani government in the NWF and other trouble spots. Or are they just providing "lip service" for public/allied consumption. Are they more concerned with not throwing rocks at a hornets nest, than exacting a full measure of effort. This also goes without saying of reports of latent support for insurgent activities from some elements within the government.
To the victims and families affected by events in Mumbai, my deepest sympathies.
To the perps, I hope none of you survive to face "due process" ...
- Reaction score
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MUMBAI: A terrorist group by the name Deccan Mujahideen has claimed the responsibility of terrorist strikes in Indian financial capital on late Wednesday that claimed as many as 80 lives and left over 450 injured.
No further information regarding the proofs claiming responsibility was released.
*I have heard the same name in the MSM as well as on blogs. You know how it goes: once a name is out there - its next to impossible to find out who really did it IF the named one did not.
Whatever the group or motivation - may they burn, baby, burn!
:flame:
No further information regarding the proofs claiming responsibility was released.
*I have heard the same name in the MSM as well as on blogs. You know how it goes: once a name is out there - its next to impossible to find out who really did it IF the named one did not.
Whatever the group or motivation - may they burn, baby, burn!
:flame:
