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If America adopts Canada's health care system

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To me the debate often misses the belief that underlies our public health care scheme: that nobody should suffer or die simply because they lack the means to pay for health care. Unfortunately, that very honourable and morally indisputable belief has become lost under a welter of inadequate and badly administered programmes, soaring medical care costs, the vested interests of bureacracies, professions and businesses, an increasingly obese and aging population, political squabbling between Right and Left, provincial and federal, private and public, to the point at which discussing health care in Canada can be almost as explosive as talking about gun control in the US.

To me, we are squabbling about the "how" and losing sight of the "what and why". What matters is that people's quality of life is supported by a guaranteed and dependable quality of care, and that all people who need care can get it without fear of financial ruin. Beyond that, it really doesn't matter to me who delivers the care. For example, we talk about Canada's "public" system, yet what about drug stores? Tell me that drug stores aren't an important part of the total health care system? Yet does anybody seriously propose that the government run drug stores? What about all the hundreds of privately operated clinics across the country?

I think that there is too much fear mongering about market delivery of medical care. Let me draw an analogy. Food is vital for life, right? Probably even more vital than health care, if you get down to it. But does the government run food stores? No, it doesn't. We trust the market to deliver the food we need. If the fear-mongers' logic was correct, then food stores would sell only to the rich and the poor would starve in the street. Of course, this isn't what happens. The great majority of food stores sell to the great majority of Canadians: middle class, with middle class budgets and concern for value for bucks, who want to take care of their families' needs. Are there food stores for rich people? Yes, obviously (Whole Foods comes to mind...) Are there food stores for people with less money to spend? Yes to that, too. The point is that the market does a very good job of delivering a vital necessity of life: food.


So where does the government fit into that? It inspects food stores and food suppliers (perhaps not always as well as it should, but just try the food safety standards in 90% of this world and you'll come right back to Canada every time...). It regulates safety and working conditions in stores. And, for those people who can't afford food, it provides financial assistance through various programs. (Is that financial assistance always adequate? As somebody who has had two close relatives try to survive on govt allowances at different times, the answer is :"not always")

And that, to me, is where the govt should be in the health care game. Working to make sure that all Canadians have access to an excellent basic quality of safe health care, all the time. Help out when people's circumstances prevent them from getting the care they need, so that nobody has to sell their home as a choice against providing care for a child. Investigate and punish the quacks, scammers and rip-off artists, on both sides of the counter. But, except in very particular cases where there is a void, leave the actual delivery of health care to the market. The market, if it's properly regulated, will function by doing what it usually does: by giving most people what they need.

Cheers
 
We are seeing care in Britian being rationed by their NHS. I see this as the ultimate failure of this system. The purpose of national healthcare is to provide care by controlling costs which is an epic fail. Even today in the US the government's involvement prevents the market place from working. Anytime you have a free market prices are controlled by the law of supply and demand. We havent seen this in the US for a very long time.
 
Here's how I see it I like Ted Nugents way of thinking how can people ask for health care if we don't care about our health. We have fluoride in our water and eat food full of words we can't pronounce people are poisoning themselves and then asking the government to solve every problem they create. If more people were in top physical condition rather then being lazy couch potatoes Canada's health care system would be Grade A and need half the funding. Banning this or calorie counting that isn't gonna solve some obesity problem. The people that abuse should pay to use it, disregarding genetic histories of people and concentrating on fitness doctors should put a 1 to a 100 point system together then people get taxed based on how they score. I have a couple of other ideas to promote healthy living but some might not like them like giving raises to the healthier teachers as they often have influential roles over children they should set example in taking care of one's body.

I dunno this is really just my 2 cents I didn't bother to read the whole thread but health care is something I have a strong opinion on. I hope I don't get flamed or anything.
 
And how soon after that do we start sterilizing the disabled, and fire up the eugenics labs, Mein Fuhrer?
 
I was simply suggesting we set aside the uncontrollable genetics and work on creating an accountability for the lazy fast food eaters. Yea sure people have the freedom to be fat but not at the cost of my freedom to be rich. If I don't use the system because I am healthy why should I pay the same amount into it as the guy who east McDonald's for breakfast lunch and dinner and must see a doctor for any number of health problems associated with poor nutritional habits.
 
And if that fat bastard is genetically blessed and lives to be 100, but you go on a run to get healthy and get hit by a bus, should he then have to pay to keep you alive and blowing into a straw for mobility?  And, if the difference between being rich or not is your annual contribution to health care, I'd suggest you ask CRA for an audit, you're paying way too much.
 
Then after we can shoot skiers, and those that play rugby need to be exterminated, and......
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Then after we can shoot skiers, and those that play rugby need to be exterminated, and......

"...and I stayed silent, for I was not a Skier."    ;D
 
The irony is that fat, out of shape guys never visit the doctor and often die of a heart attack at age 50  which is less of a drain on our health care system funds than someone who lives to 100 in extended care with old age related chronic problems.
 
Tom_Swift said:
I was simply suggesting we set aside the uncontrollable genetics and work on creating an accountability for the lazy fast food eaters. Yea sure people have the freedom to be fat but not at the cost of my freedom to be rich. If I don't use the system because I am healthy why should I pay the same amount into it as the guy who east McDonald's for breakfast lunch and dinner and must see a doctor for any number of health problems associated with poor nutritional habits.


The same reason my Super Healthy Nut, that you could go out tomorrow and get hit by a snow removal vehicle and spend the rest of your days on Life Support.

Need I quote or list countless other reasons, by your reasoning  should I pay the same, because you were too careless or stupid to watch out while stepping off the curb.

Edited: Sorry "Kat" , I didn't continue reading before replying.
 
Loachman said:
We should tax the stupid, too.

We do. That's what lotteries are: voluntary taxes for those who feel that the governments don't get quite enough of their money.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
That's what lotteries are: voluntary taxes for those who feel that the governments don't get quite enough of their money.

Lotteries, and other government taxed gambling, have been described as, "A tax upon imbeciles".
 
FastEddy said:


The same reason my Super Healthy Nut, that you could go out tomorrow and get hit by a snow removal vehicle and spend the rest of your days on Life Support.

Need I quote or list countless other reasons, by your reasoning  should I pay the same, because you were too careless or stupid to watch out while stepping off the curb.

Edited: Sorry "Kat" , I didn't continue reading before replying.

I'm saying everyone pays x amount to cover annual checkups and accident insurance like system. People who abuse the system pay x+y
 
the more you break our monolithic healthcare system down into seperate business models, the more levels of interaction there will be between private businesses. At each level of interaction there will be money syphoned off for profit.

no business will do things at a loss or for free.

in the current system, tax dollars go in, service and salaries come out.

in a private system, Tax dollars will go into the government regulated system, and more money will come out of your pocket to pay for your insurance.

right there is the first increase in cost to you the tax payer... the lowering of taxes that feed healthcare won't be dropped as much as we pay in if at all.


then when you have an accident, the insurance company will spend some of your premiums on investigating if they have to pay out... ie you might be faking, you might have had a pre existing condition, you might not be who you say you are.

then they will have to pay the hospitals to take care of you, and the hospital being a private business with shareholders will have to also charge a profit margin.

the doctors and nurses hired by the hospital won't get a profit margin above their wages, but what if all the doctors and nurses develop their own contracting agency, they also now get a profit margin.

there is 4 levels of new money's being taken out of the system where none were before, while making it more difficult for the less fortunate to get healthcare.

where is this money going to come from? some directly from your pocket, the rest will come from DECREASING services.

we will be left with a more costly and less effective service.

Only the rich, ie people making 500 000 a year or more will be able to afford top notch service, just like they do today, and the middle class will be left with a more expensive and less capable system while the owners of the new system get a little bit richer.
 
tomahawk6 said:
We are seeing care in Britian being rationed by their NHS. I see this as the ultimate failure of this system. The purpose of national healthcare is to provide care by controlling costs which is an epic fail. Even today in the US the government's involvement prevents the market place from working. Anytime you have a free market prices are controlled by the law of supply and demand. We havent seen this in the US for a very long time.

Here in Canada, sir tomahawk, private health insurance are allowed under commercial laws to thrive. But my private insurer is partially reimbursed by national health care. I clung to my private insurer as provider of my disability because government insurance is low. What my private insurer did is to have my disability insurance partially paid by the government. All my medicines are also reimbursed to private insurer. My private used to shoulder all expenses. Now it's between them and the government.

I believe that market forces should also be allowed to determine premiums. There is a law which states that if you're smoking and you get ill and your sickness is related to your smoking, you have to reimburse the government for all the expenses which amount to hundreds of thousands. That's what good about having a private insurer if one is smoking.

My argument against that is cancer can also be caused by bad eating habits. If you consume peanut butter to the maximum allowed by your body, you can have cancer. If you consume fats all the time, you become vulnerable to cancer.
 
mediocre1 said:
My argument against that is cancer can also be caused by bad eating habits. If you consume peanut butter to the maximum allowed by your body, you can have cancer. If you consume fats all the time, you become vulnerable to cancer.

Uh, what? Eating a lot of peanut butter causes cancer? That sounds a lot like the kind of misinformation spread on the internet like the factoid that we eat 8 spiders in our sleep during a year that was made up in '94. It is not the diet high in fats in itself that is cancerous, it's the lack of grains, fruits and vegetables in such a diet that could reduce the risk of cancer, as well as the fact that people eating a lot of fats tend to be less physically active. Correlation does not imply causation.

So far studies only show that fats can help spread tumors in mice, not that they are the cause.
 
mediocre1 said:
My argument against that is cancer can also be caused by bad eating habits. If you consume peanut butter to the maximum allowed by your body, you can have cancer.

You better have some substantive proof to back that up. Oh, and include the links.
 
recceguy said:
You better have some substantive proof to back that up. Oh, and include the links.

I read it in a health book about 10 years ago. If I stand corrected, I can make up by saying that 'not only cigarettes can cause of cancer.'
 
mediocre1 said:
I read it in a health book about 10 years ago.

Oh em gee, conflicting informations on 'teh intarwebz', which will you believe?

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2006/03/03/2003295475

Though I don`t blindly trust that article either, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI, which applies to more than science vs religion.

There is this problem about misleading or outdated health beliefs. For example, for a while, it was generally thought that low-tar cigarettes were less cancerous, but it was later said untrue by another study. And there's also much biased, conflicting or exaggerating studies.

And here's what happens if we look up Peanut Butter on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peanut_butter
The peanut plant is susceptible to the mold Aspergillus flavus which produces a carcinogenic substance called aflatoxin.[5] Since it is impossible to completely remove every instance of aflatoxins, contamination of peanuts and peanut butter is monitored in many countries to ensure safe levels of this carcinogen. Average American peanut butter contains about 13 parts per billion of aflatoxins, a thousand times below the maximum recommended safe level.
Sadly, even this might be false or in part false, as there are no link referring to this statement.

What about aflatoxin? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aflatoxin#cite_note-1
Aflatoxin-producing members of Aspergillus are common and widespread in nature. They can colonize and contaminate grain before harvest or during storage. Host crops are particularly susceptible to infection by Aspergillus following prolonged exposure to a high humidity environment or damage from stressful conditions such as drought, a condition which lowers the barrier to entry.
[...]
Crops which are frequently affected include cereals (maize, sorghum, pearl millet, rice, wheat), oilseeds (peanut, soybean, sunflower, cotton), spices (chile peppers, black pepper, coriander, turmeric, ginger), and tree nuts (almond, pistachio, walnut, coconut, brazil nut).
The toxin can also be found in the milk of animals which are fed contaminated feed.

My verdict would be that there's not enough of the stuff to be a direct cause of cancer and that studies suggesting that ingesting peanut butter is highly dangerous cancer-wise are exaggerating, a lot.
 
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