IAP/BOTP Bypass

[cda84]

Good day all,

I would like to know why we are wasting time on sending Reg F OCdts with previous experience, through IAP. I myself have been through BMQ(R), BOTP(R) and a Reg F CAP this past spring. (Serial 0601). I then CT'd to the Regs. I was demoted from 2LT to OCdt and was sent on IAP. It was an absolute waste of time and money, not to mention a tough pill to swallow. If I had stayed in the Reserves I was slotted on Inf Phase III for May 28th. Instead I did basic over again. I am currently in the process of applying for a BOTP bypass to keep moving forward with my phase training; hopefully PFT this summer.

I have a friend who is now just completing his second IAP in 6 months. He was on the same summer serial as myself, I0078E, and was told to redo it due to the new BOTP style that he was aiming to be on in the late fall. IAP, twice, in a row.

Any thoughts or insights? We are looking for good people to join the forces, and when we get them, they spend countless hours wasted away at CFLRS. Wasted time and wasted taxpayer dollars. Any ideas who is to blame here? It is so very frustrating. I wouldn't be surprised if it cause many good people to say, 'enough, this is ridiculous'.

Any ideas or comments ladies and gents? An explanation from someone out there would be even better if it does indeed exist.

Cheers

OCdt Chris Allan

 

[Quag]

How about this:

You are switching components.  Whereas you were once a part-time reservist, you are now doing it as a living, which apparently requires more training time (eg: BMQ Reg vs. BMQ PRes.)

IAP is 9 weeks.  What was your BMQ?  If I'm not mistaken it was less than a month.  In fact, you didn't have IAP at all in reserves.

I don't think you will be given IAP or BOTP bypass (subject to further information).

Whatever you do, you DO NOT want to be that "reservist guy" who pretends he knows everything during courses because he has a year in doing weekends and parade nights.  Those guys get chewed up and fed to the dogs very quickly.

Good Luck

 

[cda84]

Quag,

I see you are "3 Years Reg ROTP CIVIU". If I'm not mistaken that means you did your IAP before your first year, BOTP and SLT after your first year, CAP after your second year, and have done or are to do Phase III Troop Leader after your third year?

What if I told you, I, as a reservist, completed CAP with you (12 weeks, not CAP(R)), and was to be on your Troop Leader course very soon? However, before we went on the same Phase III course together, being great buddies from Phase II, I transfered to the Regs and lets assume I stayed combat arms. No problem Quag, I'll see you on Phase III in a few weeks. However, as a reservist, I was given Phase I in BMQ(R) / BOTP2(R) way back when. Upon my CT, instead, I was sent back to do Phase I to learn how to shine boots over again while my good buddy from CAP is going on to do Phase III. Fair and a good use of time? I think not.

I was NOT one of those reservists. I would like to say I hope you are NOT one of those Reg Force guys who sees a reservist and doesn't give him the time of day. There are many. 15-20% (I believe, not sure on the exact number) of our forces overseas are Reservists. Yes, they have 4 week BMQs, but everything after that is now par on par.

So, that being said, why send me backwards? Not to mention the case of a friend of mine who had to repeat IAP upon completion?

Please lets not get into the Reservist vs. Reg F question. I am simply looking for a valid answer to these training delays.

 

[Quag]

CDA84,

I think I understand now what you mean.  I took your original post in another context.

I cannot provide a definite answer.

I am not one of those guys that doesn't give the time of day to reservists.  I extremely appreciate PRes. volunteering to go overseas. I just find with my extremely little TI, that SOME people that have a little TI in reserves or cadets, think they know everything. 

It is terrible when you are doing change parades because "that guy" said:

"Well Sgt., in the reserves this is how we did it..." 

I was just giving you a heads up, nothing else.

I say this, but I have met many, many more reservists that are willing to lend a hand in private getting you up to snuff.

In regards to the original question, I would assume that they send you backwards so that you can complete IAP (which is not only a "basic training" but a test to see if you have the leadership potential to lead troops in the Reg F.)  Perhaps because they do not have IAP in reserves for some reason, that is why you are being sent back.

 

[Shamrock]

Interesting point, cda84.

I joined the reserves in '95.  Did my QL2 followed by QL3 infantry from April - September.  Joined the regular forces in December.  Redid my QL2 and then did QL3 Armoured (at the time, the difference between the two was a week was taken away from section attacks and replaced with MLVW qualification).  A buttload of qualifications follow, some gongs, even a PLQ.

Now, I'm an officer with ROTP.  I still do not get an IAP bypass.  Nor would anyone else in a similar situation (a fellow ROTP candidate told me of having a former Warrant on his IAP).  You are overlooking the obvious: you have not completed what the CF requires you to complete.  Take a looksee at the TP of Phase I (Reserve) and Phase I (Regular), you'll probably notice discrepancies beyond length.

Should you successfully bypass this, cudos to you.  I'd be interested in hearing how you do and how you did it.  I'm not looking forward to returning to the school of early mornings, but if I'm told I gotta, I oughta.  I don't have the advantage of having recently done my basic, so I'll be able to relearn some things that I may have forgotten.  

 

[mhawk]

I don't you guys are understanding what he's asking.  He completed CAP reg force, which needs a prerequisite of IAP and BOTP before taking the course.  It has nothing do with PLQ or BMQ.

 

[Redeye]

I agree with the original poster - the length of his early courses is irrelevant - having completed "Reg F" CAP - there is only one CAP standard now - means he shouldn't have to go back to IAP/BOTC.  What sense is there in sending him to an indoctrination and basic leadership course when the fact that he passed CAP means that he already has a grip on the standard expected of him.  Since he, if he stayed in the Reserve, would be going on to MOC training anyhow, that's where he should go in the Reg F.  Especially if his MOC is infantry, since there is no difference in the course, Reg and Reserve all take the same Phase III now to (again!).  It does sound like this guy has just had a whole load of his time wasted.

 

[Quag]

I don't you guys are understanding what he's asking.  He completed CAP reg force, which needs a prerequisite of IAP and BOTP before taking the course.  It has nothing do with PLQ or BMQ.

I don't think you understand.  IAP is not a prerequisite.  IAP is ONLY for Reg Force.

 

[HCA123]

Look at your time line for when you start IAP/BOTP and try and do a PLA (prior learning assessment). I was in a bit of a different situation - with PLQ and close to 8 years in the reserves - and didn't get an IAP bypass. Yet people that were on my same PLQ course got the bypass (I didn't have enough time to submit a PLA - less than a month between my offer and my IAP)... sometimes it's just the person that looks at your file that makes the difference. I bit the bullet - shut off the brain, checked the ego at the door and then looked at it as a full day's pay. Tough, yes - but what goes around, comes around. Since I've made the jump to the regs in I've been able to PLA an 8-month course and trying for a couple of other things.

See if you can make friend's with someone at your recruiting centre to go to bat for you with Kingston or Borden (whoever evaluated your file). Go in with your course report and another other course reports and make sure your MPRR is up to date (through your OR). If the recruiting tells you to fight it when you get to St-Jean - you can forget about it. I talked to my Pl WO when I got on the ground and he basically said I shouldn't be there for IAP - but there was nothing I could do about it. Also, there is a spreadsheet somewhere on the DIN that outlines what courses can write-off which (for example - PLQ (L) is suppose to give you IAP and CAP).

On another note - it is common for pers who do the Commission from the Ranks program (MCpl and above who get commissioned as Lt's or Capt's) without the SLC/ILQ to get a write-off for IAP and CAP - but NOT for BOTP. So having done CAP or equivalent does not necessarily give you BOTP (but should give you IAP and obviously CAP).

Good luck with reversing recruiting's decision - from my experiences you'll need it.

 

[George Wallace]

I don't you guys are understanding what he's asking.  He completed CAP reg force, which needs a prerequisite of IAP and BOTP before taking the course.  It has nothing do with PLQ or BMQ.

I guess you don't understand, either.  If he requires IAP, and he has not done it, then he will have to do it.

 

[cda84]

Good evening all,

Well thankyou for the replies.

I guess you don't understand, either.  If he requires IAP, and he has not done it, then he will have to do it.

I have completed IAP. I began IAP 57 days after I completed CAP.

Essentially there is Basic Training, whatever form it is received in. Redeye summed it up very well. Right now, your 'Basic Officer Training', however it is rreceived is a prerequisite for further phase training. IAP/BOTP or BMQ(R)/BOTP(R)2 are both acceptable prerequisites for CAP. Therefore both convey the message that 'yes the CF agrees you are ready for this stage of training and will be on par with everybody else beginning that course'. IAP is one prerequisite for CAP. However there are others.

I did go into IAP with an open mind. I ended up becoming bored silly. Looking over the PO's, I had already completed them within the last 12 months on my other courses. It was utterly a waste of time; frustrating as well because I really did (and do) want to get on with my training. I want to learn. I am far from a 'I've done this before', but I did and had a difficult time understanding why I was being sent so far back in my learning process.

I would honest to god rather go on Phase III Inf DP1, with no relevance to my new trade, rather than go over BOTP again, for the simple reason of it is new and could only help me.

HCA123, good points. Thanks. The MPR is a good point especially. However I know my bypass memo is being looked at tomorrow in Borden, so hopefully it comes through ok. I'll keep all posted.

From (my young and brief) experience, this process of 'What the CF Requires', can drift far too much into ridiculous bureaucracy

Another point which was brought up was the CFR. A MCpl from my old unit went as a DEO, as did an equally trained peer of his. One of them was given IAP/BOTP/CAP bypass and one went on IAP. The one who did receive a CAP bypass went on his Phase III & IV, aced them and is now in battalion only a year later. His peer, I have no clue. So yes it does seem it depends on who looks at your file. There seem to be reasonable people out there giving bypasses where they are needed, and yet in some cases there are not.

Also, there is a spreadsheet somewhere on the DIN that outlines what courses can write-off which (for example - PLQ (L) is suppose to give you IAP and CAP).

HCA123 when I'm down at the armoury this week on the DIN I will look into that thankyou.

I guess point being, lets move guys/girls forward in their training if they are ready for it rather than make sure every "i" is dotted and "t" crossed.

Cheers

 

[Wookilar]

Again, depending on who/what/where they looked at your file, a PLQ does not give you an automatic bypass for IAP or CAP (or anything else, for that matter). I work with ex-Sgt's/PO's that got out of IAP, but had to do BOTP. NCM's 9including Combat Arms) that are supposed to do CAP, even though they have worked in field units for over a decade (and have the UER's to prove it). I went through IAP with MCpl's, their JLC didn't count, apparently (I don't have JLC or PLQ so I can't complain. Still didn't learn anything though).

The whole process for those of us that switched to the dark side, whether Reg or Res,  is screwy.

I'm supposed to go on CAP next summer. I'm just wondering, after nearly a decade and a half in the field (Advanced Winter Warfare, Machine-Gunner, yadda yadda. Mind you, I still suck on a C6. Need more time on a range), what I will be learning on a Common Army Phase that is meant to indoctrinate new recruits into the Army way of doing things?

(None of you OCdt's, my peers, out there get all uppity about that comment either. If you think after a few weeks, total, in Farnham that you know how to do the Army stuff......)

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I think the one thing not mentioned here is the PLAR process that CFRG does when there is a Component Transfer.  PLAR=Prior Learning And Recognition or something like that...

CFRG does the PLAR...and the folks that do it are called MA's (lingo my MCC used with me).  They are the ones that decide what you get to bypass/what you don't.  I didn't ask but assumed MA means "MOC Advisor" or something close to that.

As I am not an Officer and not part of CFRG, I can only tell you that some of the PLAR results are what decides the trng equivalencies a mbr gets.

FWIW, I remember reading on a thread that...to get an IAP bypass as a NCM going officer, you must have completed PLQ.  To get a BOTP bypass, you would have to have ILQ, and presumably, a 6B qual in your MOC.

Now...if you are throwing in a OT with the CT...well thats a whole new ballgame.  ( I am currently doing a CT with an OT...).

I am not saying I agree/disagree with the original posters situation, or any of the comments.  Just thought I would put the spotlight on the PLAR process CTs are subject to, and how it decides what trng bypass's are granted.  IF you wanted to point the finger somewhere's...

MRM

 

[cda84]

Good day all,

Just an update. I did recieve the bypass. So I'm pretty happy. Also shows that I should never have been on IAP.

Lesson learned, if you want something in the CF, ask. If it makes sense you just might get it, despite opinions you will hear.

OCdt Allan

 

[Wookilar]

Good to hear. It gives the rest of us some hope.

Also, one of our guys here managed to get a CAP bypass approved last week (through a PLAR at CFRG). I'll be putting my memo in right after Christmas. Keeping my fingers and toes crossed.

Question: Now that CAP is divided into modules, does anyone know if people are actually getting course loaded for a few modules or is it still the whole thing or nothing? I am being told here (RMC  ^-^) that is a possibility, but I am trying to confirm that this is actually being done (from a reputable, knowledgeable source.....preferably).

 

[Foxman]

Wookilar,

Last year I did the first Mod in the spring. Then went to Gagetown for 2-4. Now I am back at brigade doing the last one. I had work commitments preventing me from doing all 5 at once. My unit was not super happy about breaking it up, but 6 weeks is the longest I could get off in one stretch. There were people who were loaded for a single Mod. Two guys in fact, were doing one Mod per year. (why anyone would do this is beyond me-dumb idea)

I'm a reserve Infantry Officer, it might be different for RMC.

Regards

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Question: Now that CAP is divided into modules, does anyone know if people are actually getting course loaded for a few modules or is it still the whole thing or nothing?

Yes,  in my unit there is an officer doing her CAP in modules.  This is in a reserve unit, obviously.  She jokes about how I'll finish CAP before her,  because I can take the needed time off in the summer.  It can be done, if for a good reason, but from what I've seen if you can afford the time to get it done, do it.

Now I know that "Someone in my unit is doing it" doesn't really pass the creditable test.  So here is better information.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/32cbg_hq/Battle_School/BSL_trg_dates_e.htm
"CAP (decentralized POs of mods 1 and 2 and mod 4) host unit TBC

16-18 Sep          weekend 1                  Fire PWT 2 with TF A or C
29 Sep-1 Oct      weekend 2                  Observe Range with TF A
20-22 Oct            weekend 3                  Meaford – Grenades and Pistol
17-19 Nov            weekend 4                  Meaford – Navigation with GPS
8-10 Dec            weekend 5                  Army Fitness
5-7 Jan              weekend 6                  M of I
26-28 Jan            weekend 7                  M of I "

:warstory: