Good day everyone I need wisdom, the cost of repairs was 15000$ on this truck. They're telling me I'm responsible for it, I'm confused though it's an accident. If I crashed my own vehicle its covered by collision insurance. I know people who have driven LAV3s off bridges, wrote off 100,000 RHIBS and crashed HMCSs into other ships and didn't pay anything. Should I be held liable for this ?
I damaged DND vehicle, need advice
- Thread starter sumyungi
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Being responsible for the accident and having to pay the damages are two different things.
A
aesop081
Guest
sumyungi said:
It is covered by insurance because you pay for insurance.
Without knowing how these things happen, you cannot compare them to your situation.
If the investigation concludes that you were negligent, then yes.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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CDN Aviator said:
As CDN Aviator said; if you are found negligent, then you will have to pay. It has happened in the past, where drivers through their negligence have cause damage to vehicles and have had to pay for repairs/replacement. The precedence is there.
MedCorps
Sr. Member
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I have seen a few members billed for vehicle damage caused by negligence before. One of the more memorable cases was where a MCpl was the "Fuel Point NCO" and he allowed gasoline to be put into a diesel SMP vehicle at the end of a road move.
He split the cost of damages (which was not as high as I would have guessed, but still some pretty serious cash) with the Pte (T) driver who was doing the fueling. Both claimed during the investigation that they were not paying attention during the fueling process.
Who would have guessed that you cannot put gas in a diesel truck?
Negligence is negligence. The Crown should not have to pay for your f'up if indeed it is negligence.
MC
He split the cost of damages (which was not as high as I would have guessed, but still some pretty serious cash) with the Pte (T) driver who was doing the fueling. Both claimed during the investigation that they were not paying attention during the fueling process.
Who would have guessed that you cannot put gas in a diesel truck?
Negligence is negligence. The Crown should not have to pay for your f'up if indeed it is negligence.
MC
I mean an employer with any sense would insure their 50,000$ vehicles against accidents. Shouldn't expect anything from their broke employees who can't afford to pay. Whether you're at fault or not its still an accident. I'm a reservist and not working is there ANYway to reduce the cost ?
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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sumyungi said:
You need to do some (a lot of) reading and research. Then you will understand.
A
aesop081
Guest
sumyungi said:
This is irrelevant. DND vehicles are not insured. You can whine about insurance until you are blue in the face if you want.
If you are "at fault", it is no longer an accident.
I'm just saying if I owned this 2012 truck I wouldn't casually drive around with no insurance thinking 'Oh if I crash I'll just pay for everything from my own pocket no big deal'
Its just my opinion but an employer should be responsible for its own assets and employees. If I injure myself at work even if its negligent every things paid for period.
Like I said before, I know a handful of people who have wrote off military vehicles that are exponentially more expensive through misuse and unsafe practice and didn't pay anything.
I'm not looking for responses defending the crown, rather advice to avoid charges I can't afford and places to research this topic
Its just my opinion but an employer should be responsible for its own assets and employees. If I injure myself at work even if its negligent every things paid for period.
Like I said before, I know a handful of people who have wrote off military vehicles that are exponentially more expensive through misuse and unsafe practice and didn't pay anything.
I'm not looking for responses defending the crown, rather advice to avoid charges I can't afford and places to research this topic
A
aesop081
Guest
sumyungi said:
Yes, we got it. You crashed a truck and do not think you should pay for it because DND should carry insurance. DND does not. If you have 404s, you should have known that already.
Ask your transport section to show you why you are being made to pay. Start with the investigation report.
MedCorps
Sr. Member
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You could always ask to be charged under NDA 124. If found not guilty then make the rightful argument that you were indeed not negligent while performing your military duty as a driver. If you are found not guilty, therefore not negligent and therefore no need to pay the 15K in damages.
What was the circumstance of the accident? We might in our heads be thinking the worst.
MC
What was the circumstance of the accident? We might in our heads be thinking the worst.
MC
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sumyungi said:
This may be of interest.
4) Where wilfulness is not involved and liability arises under subparagraph (1)(a) or (b) or paragraph (2) of article 38.01 only by reason of negligence on the part of an officer or non-commissioned member:
(b) where the negligence is not of a minor character, an administrative deduction ordered under paragraph (2) shall not exceed
v. where the amount involved is more than $ 500, one-fifth of the amount or $ 125 whichever is the greater, subject to the limitation that where liability arises out of his negligence in operating a motor vehicle the deduction shall not exceed $ 250.:
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/doc/chapter-chapitre-038.pdf
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Opposing point of view here... it wouldn't be the first time somone got over zealous, and arbitrarily claimed "You're paying for this!" in either some misguided attempt "scare" the member staight, or for reasons of their own personal inadequacy.
I did some minor cosmetic damage to a DND vehicle some years ago as a private (For what it's worth, it was determined that I was not in any way negligent, and the cause was both a fault in the vehicle, and a very poorly placed steel hand rail on a stair case.... which had alredy been struck by multiple other vehicles.).
Shortly after (the next day or so) I was summoned to our local base transport section, where I was given a good two hour blast from several MSE ops of ranks between MCPL and WO about how I was a terrible driver, how I was going to be charged, and how I was going to be held fully responsible for the full amount of repairs (which was the cost of a new bumper, I believe it was abuot $1700, no small sum to a class A reservist).
Ultimately, I was not held responsible for any of it, and I got my 404s back within a week, no charges, not even any remedial training.
At the time, I was appropriately frightened that I would be paying $1700.
In retrospect, , the MSE section, while they did conduct the investigation on the damage, despite their ranting, had no authority to charge me, or collect any money, they can make all the recommendations they like in their report, but the authority to charge and fine lies with the CO.
I did some minor cosmetic damage to a DND vehicle some years ago as a private (For what it's worth, it was determined that I was not in any way negligent, and the cause was both a fault in the vehicle, and a very poorly placed steel hand rail on a stair case.... which had alredy been struck by multiple other vehicles.).
Shortly after (the next day or so) I was summoned to our local base transport section, where I was given a good two hour blast from several MSE ops of ranks between MCPL and WO about how I was a terrible driver, how I was going to be charged, and how I was going to be held fully responsible for the full amount of repairs (which was the cost of a new bumper, I believe it was abuot $1700, no small sum to a class A reservist).
Ultimately, I was not held responsible for any of it, and I got my 404s back within a week, no charges, not even any remedial training.
At the time, I was appropriately frightened that I would be paying $1700.
In retrospect, , the MSE section, while they did conduct the investigation on the damage, despite their ranting, had no authority to charge me, or collect any money, they can make all the recommendations they like in their report, but the authority to charge and fine lies with the CO.
A
aesop081
Guest
a Sig Op said:
One that is perfectly valid. I just stopped caring about the OP's problem because of his "DND should have insurance" defence.
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You do realise there's other disciplinary measures available? If the member was being negligent, toss the book at them, there's been far too many accidents and even deaths caused by extremely stupid things done with DND vehicles.
If you suddenly fine a member the amount of, or close to, their annual income, that member suddenly becomes very useless. Even if it's self-imposed, or if they "deserved" it, they're still in severe financial hardship. They've suddenly become a huge security risk.
The only effective way to correct that security risk is to either release them immediately after being fined, or lock them up until they've got a positive cash flow again... you want that for every dented bumper?
In the mean time, the OP needs to:
1. Talk to his chain of command about what's happening administratively
2. Read (reference posted by MarioMike for ease of spoon-feeding)
3. Wait for the investigation to complete
Bonus:
If you want wisdom, here's some. "Consider the source". Who's saying you have to pay?
If you suddenly fine a member the amount of, or close to, their annual income, that member suddenly becomes very useless. Even if it's self-imposed, or if they "deserved" it, they're still in severe financial hardship. They've suddenly become a huge security risk.
The only effective way to correct that security risk is to either release them immediately after being fined, or lock them up until they've got a positive cash flow again... you want that for every dented bumper?
In the mean time, the OP needs to:
1. Talk to his chain of command about what's happening administratively
2. Read (reference posted by MarioMike for ease of spoon-feeding)
3. Wait for the investigation to complete
Bonus:
If you want wisdom, here's some. "Consider the source". Who's saying you have to pay?
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