Hydrogen Peroxide As Fuel

[tomahawk6]

http://www.livescience.com/technology/eco-friendly_china_041018.html

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Hydrogen_20Peroxide_20Car_20Motor

Looks like a pretty viable technology that we could start using now. We dont need a new type of engine just tweaks of the existing ones. This isnt drug store hydrogen peroxide but far more pure with a composition of 3% water and 97% hdrogen peroxide.

http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:Hydrogen_Peroxide_as_Fuel

 

[Armymatters]

The Germans tried Hydrogen Peroxide in World War II as a fuel for submarines. The entire history of it is here:
http://www.uboat.net/types/walter_hist.htm
The British experiments with it are here:
http://www.submariners.co.uk/Boats/Barrowbuilt/Postwar/
The main issue with the fuel back then was how flammable the fuel was (the Brits abandoned the technology in submarines in the 1950's due to how flammable it was), the fact that hydrogen peroxide is HIGHLY reactive with metals (see the HMS Sidon tragedy and the Kursk tragedy regarding hydrogen peroxide and metal), and how inefficient it was to use hydrogen peroxide as a fuel, as the fuel comsumption was sky high.

 

[a_majoor]

Slight correction here, H2O2 is an Oxidizer, rather than the fuel. It allows closed cycle operation of Diesel, turbine and other types of engines (decomposing to provide oxygen to support the combustion of normal fuels), and also has been used as the oxidizer for rocket engines.

Highly concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide is highly reactive, and very corrosive to human flesh, which is the primary reason this technology hasn't been embraced. There are some niche roles this might work well in (high altitude UAV engines could "breath" with H2O2 assist, for example), but there are other exotic technologies that are a lot less dangerous to explore.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Was mentioning this in chat- I worked with peroxide (not the baby stuff you get in stores) in a chem plant and it's crazy.  If you split some on work gloves, dependong on the % of perozide, they would start smoking and heat up and burn your hand in seconds all the way to making your gloves burst into flames.  Reacts with organic material.  Same thing with wood. Makes it smolder and smoke or catch fire.  Burns it leaves on your skin are very painful too.

 

[George Wallace]

From the above information, I am beginning to wonder about the Safety of occupants of these vehicles in the case of an accident.  What sort of protection or safety containment is used to prevent the serious injury or death of car drivers if they are involved in an accident?  What kind of 'Fuel' storage and dispensers will we find at 'Gas Stations'?  What type of protective training and clothing must people have to refuel these vehicles?

It may turn out to be an efficient means of powering autos, but not a practical and safe means.

 

[a_majoor]

I remember reading about the use of H2O2 as the oxidizer in the ME-163 rocket plane used near the end of WW II. In addition to the various insane risks the pilots were taking (the undercarriage was jettisoned on take off, rather than retracted. The unit would sometimes bounce high enough to impact the still climbing plane, causing a crash. If that wasn't bad enough, after using the rocket to climb to altitude and attack the bombers, you were out of fuel and flying a glider back to base, with hordes of pissed off American pilots in high performance fighters racing after you....), the oxidizer could spontaniously decompose (explode) if there was any sort of contamination in the tank or lines (i.e. the oil from a single finger print) or there was a sharp shock to the airframe (something which might occur when people are shooting at you).

Since the Germans are nothing if not thourough, they explored all these issues aboard submarines as well (using several tonnes of the stuff in big Type XVIII submarines as opposed to a hundred kilograms or so on a rocket plane). Submariners were somewhat underwhelmed, and decided the best COA was taking the hull, ripping out the oxidizer tank and replacing it with massive battery banks. The Type XXI "Battery Boat" was the best submarine design of the war, and the basis of our late Oberon submaring designs and Soviet "Whiskey" class boats as well.

 

[George Wallace]

Perhaps this is how it was so easy for the Slave Labourers to sabotage the project.  Their involvement in the construction of these aircraft made it easy to take steps to sabotage different flight and propulsion systems of the aircraft on the assembly lines.

 

[3rd Herd]

John Cornwells "Hitler's Scientists,Science, Warandthe Devil's Pact"(2003) cites several problems in the field of hydrogen peroxide. First at the developmental stage when speed was the main tangent of research and design rather than submerged duration by Helmut Walter. Secondly the success of the VII and IX series already in production. In conjunction was the limited amount of hydrogen peroxide available to the German war industry in total. Most of which was going to the A4 Rocket program. Further, was the requirement to construct several production facilities, a low priority. The test bed U-791 was destroyed in a bombing raid in 1942. Lastly Corwell quotes Clay Blair,
    Since there was not enough room in the Walter boat for both a big 
    rechargeable storage battery and hydrogen peroxide tankage, and that
    tankage was not , of course, unlimited in size, the submerged endurance of
    such a boat was restricted.............until such a time a means could be 
    devised to replenish this exotic fuel at sea.
Hydrogen Peroxide as was mentioned a non renewable fuel unlike rechargeable batteries.

In the realm of aircraft, again referring to Cornwell, "by the Autumn of 1937 Ohain was testing a hydrogen fuelled engine and planning  an aircraft specifically designed for jet flight, the He 178" which first flew in August of 1939.

 

[kyleg]

Funny how a thread that starts off with the future in mind brings out all the history buffs ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

Funny how a thread that starts off with the future in mind brings out all the history buffs ;D

Have you not heard how there is nothing new under the sun? 

 

[Synthos]

what about using H2O2 in rockets/missles if it's not already used. (which I beleive it is) Other than that it sounds too volatile to use properly

 

[3rd Herd]

Funny how a thread that starts off with the future in mind brings out all the history buffs ;D

Do you not just hate it when we rear our ugly heads to bore you to death. A little more recent history on the subject of alternative fuels. In 1990, rule changes in the Western Eastern Road Racing(WERA)format in the Formula USA(unlimited cc. displacement and horsepower) we 4 stroke riders found ourselves competing against Grand Prix V 4 two strokes. Some what of an unfair arrangement. To equal the odds myself and an ex USMC member from the ELTorro base looked in our history books and came up with methanol.

What we learned through the cooperatin of Kerkker Exhausts(dyno time) and Mikuni Carburetors Japan(free carbs and jets) is the following. Yes, there was a dramatic in horsepower. But, methanol is hydro-scopic in that it sucks moisture out of the air resulting in both fuel tanks and carburetors filling with rust over night. Solution here was to coat the gas tank with tank sealent courtesy of the USAF. One problem solved, methanol has an extremely high flash point and cold starting a bike was a no go. Warm up on regular gas then switch carbs and tank to methanol for the race. Which is why I suspect that some of the new hybrid vechicles today have both an electric/methanol motor or a gasoline/methanol compatible motor. Lastly, after being unhorsed so to speak at Willows Springs was the fact that when ignited methanol burns with no visible flame or smoke. Much to the displeasure of the track marshalls who went to corral our unwieldy steed.

As some mentioned in an earlier post was the corrosiveness of hydrogen peroxide. This has also been an area of concern with the F-1 cars running their special brews. Additionally, medical research was done on the cancer causing potential of these fuels along with your normal complaints of blurred vision and massive headaches. Which is why today if you chance to watch a race the gas passer in the pit resembles a mummy. I will close this post with a long remember quote from South African motorcycling racing great Robbie Peterson "I knew in my country the Light Infantry were crazy but you guys are absolutely insane"(Brainard Speedway 1990)

 

[kyleg]

Ok, guess I'll chime in with a little history trivia re: H2O2. It decomposes slowly releasing water and heat. If a catalyst, such as manganese dioxide is added, the reaction is sped up quite dramatically, giving off large amounts of steam. According to Dr. Joe Schwarcz this reaction was used in the V2 rockets that were fired at England during WWII. The H2O2 decomposition was catalysed by manganese dioxide within the rocket, and the resulting steam drove a small turbine, that powered the propeller of the rocket. This is just off the top of my head, so I might be a little off, but the point of the story is that hydrogen peroxide is quite versatile. It's said that in I Dream of Jeannie the "genie" escaping from the lamp was steam created by the same method.

Cheers,
Pinky