HMCS Algonquin refurbishment

[Ex-Dragoon]

Just going what was relayed to us...

 

[Sub_Guy]

Wouldn't the program need to be funded somewhere between 2005-2008 to be in service 2015-2018?

For our Navy that's late!  If we are going to see hulls in the water by 2015 funding should have started 10 years ago.  >

On a more serious note it is possible if we go with an off the shelf (proven) design that we can build here (too keep everyone happy).

 

[HalfmyLife]

Wouldn't the program need to be funded somewhere between 2005-2008 to be in service 2015-2018?

On the positive side, they were planning the CADRE program for years before they switched to SCSC. So in Theory there was allot of preplanning already done and with the downturn in the economy they might fast track it.

 

[starseed]

In most cases, engagement range is going to be limited by the radar horizon not whatever missile you want to engage with. The frigates and TRUMPs are pretty much the same there.

All too true. The British figured this out the hard way in the Falklands and lost 3 air defense destroyers and 3 frigates, plus some support ships. The Argentines just popped out over the cliff, dropped their bombs  before they had time to launch a SAM. A couple more destroyers were almost sunk as well, but the bombs had the wrong fuses and didn't detonate on impact. Scared the shit out of the Royal Navy, since the Argentinean air force wasn't exactly large.

Doesn't matter how far out your missiles can engage if you can't see them coming in time to fire one

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

All too true. The British figured this out the hard way in the Falklands and lost 3 air defense destroyers and 3 frigates, plus some support ships. The Argentines just popped out over the cliff, dropped their bombs  before they had time to launch a SAM. A couple more destroyers were almost sunk as well, but the bombs had the wrong fuses and didn't detonate on impact. Scared the shit out of the Royal Navy, since the Argentinean air force wasn't exactly large.

Doesn't matter how far out your missiles can engage if you can't see them coming in time to fire one

Thats why you have to plan to position your assets where they would do the most good. There were a lot of painful lessons learned during the Falklands and most western navies doctrines, construction etc reflect that today.

 

[starseed]

Thats why you have to plan to position your assets where they would do the most good. There were a lot of painful lessons learned during the Falklands and most western navies doctrines, construction etc reflect that today.

Absolutely, all it woulda taken to avert many of these losses was AEW. Of course they only had tiny carriers that either couldn't or just didn't carry those planes. The type 45 destroyers and their new Fleet Carriers are a direct result of the, as you say, painful lessons they learned in the Falklands.

edit: As are, one might say, our own Evolved Sea Sparrow and the mounting of Goalkeeper systems on all our ships for point defense

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Lets wait till the UK actually has their new carriers built and in service before going down that path, not to mention their lone Type45 that has sea trials to do....

we don't use the Goalkeeper we use the Phalanx system.

 

[starseed]

Lets wait till the UK actually has their new carriers built and in service before going down that path, not to mention their lone Type45 that has sea trials to do....

we don't use the Goalkeeper we use the Phalanx system.

Same thing. Goalkeeper is just the British, and frankly far more descriptive, name

 

[George Wallace]

Same thing. Goalkeeper is just the British, and frankly far more descriptive, name

Be careful there.  Next thing we'll have is someone saying that the Leopard 2 is the same as a M1 Abrams, only it is German, not American, and a far more descriptive name.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Same thing. Goalkeeper is just the British, and frankly far more descriptive, name

Different calibers, different capabilities so not the same thing and the last time I checked it Dutch not British. :

Not to mention Phalanx is an apt name as well, you do realize the Greeks used the phalanx as a formation for their hoplites and during missile attacks on the formation the ranks of hoplites used to raise their shields and long spears to help deflect the arrows and what have you from the troops.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Still waiting for a rebuttal starseed (I know you have been online since this discussion started), or can you admit you were a wee bit out of your lanes?

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Goalkeeper is actually more of a copy of a TRUMP's systems, down to certain parts in common with the LIROD. It only looks like a Phalanx...totally different system that works on totally different principles.

 

[Neill McKay]

How different or similar Goalkeeper and Phalanx are depends entirely on the observer.  To someone knowledgeable in naval weapons they are evidently quite different.  To the rest of the world, they are both about the same thing: Gatling guns with integral radar mounted on ships for defence against missiles and such.

 

[George Wallace]

How different or similar Goalkeeper and Phalanx are depends entirely on the observer.  To someone knowledgeable in naval weapons they are evidently quite different.  To the rest of the world, they are both about the same thing: Gatling guns with integral radar mounted on ships for defence against missiles and such.

Here we go back to the rest of the world looking at a M1 and a Leo 2.  Yup!  Dems both a tank.  Dems both the same.

Perhaps N. Mckay is ltmaverick25?  They both support the same side of a certain argument.  They have to be the same.

This is a site, where we know the differences.  We are not "the rest of the world".  This is a military forum, where the SMEs are on hand to sort out and enlighten the less knowledgeable.

 

[Neill McKay]

Perhaps N. Mckay is ltmaverick25?  They both support the same side of a certain argument.  They have to be the same.

I'm not ltmaverick25, and I'm not supporting any side of the argument.  I'm only offering, for everyone's consideration, an explanation for how a person not knowledgeable in the subject might be forgiven for thinking that Phalanx and Goalkeeper are the same thing.

This is a site, where we know the differences.  We are not "the rest of the world".  This is a military forum, where the SMEs are on hand to sort out and enlighten the less knowledgeable.

So it is, and I hope they continue to contribute to the thread so that the less knowledgeable do, in fact, get enlightened.

 

[George Wallace]

Whoose!  Right over your head. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I'm not ltmaverick25, and I'm not supporting any side of the argument.  I'm only offering, for everyone's consideration, an explanation for how a person not knowledgeable in the subject might be forgiven for thinking that Phalanx and Goalkeeper are the same thing.

then starseed should not have made the claim that they were the same thing. If you don't know then don't dismissively remark as he did so.

So it is, and I hope they continue to contribute to the thread so that the less knowledgeable do, in fact, get enlightened.

I have no problems sharing my knowledge and experience but idiot comments like he made only serve to drive the knowledge base away. Why should I waste my time answering questions or raising points when some armchair admiral thinks he knows it all?

 

[Neill McKay]

Whoose!  Right over your head. 

Such is the imperfect nature of the Internet.

I have no problems sharing my knowledge and experience but idiot comments like he made only serve to drive the knowledge base away. Why should I waste my time answering questions or raising points when some armchair admiral thinks he knows it all?

I guess I'd suggest that those are the people who need it most, but of course it's your time to use as you like (and there's no sense in wasting it because none of us is getting any more than what we have now!).

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Like you do anything for the site :

 

[ltmaverick25]

Here we go back to the rest of the world looking at a M1 and a Leo 2.  Yup!  Dems both a tank.  Dems both the same.

Perhaps N. Mckay is ltmaverick25?  They both support the same side of a certain argument.  They have to be the same.

This is a site, where we know the differences.  We are not "the rest of the world".  This is a military forum, where the SMEs are on hand to sort out and enlighten the less knowledgeable.

Hah!  I was about to send you a nasty PM and then I realized what you were trying to say!  That was alot of wasted typing power for nothing  ;D

On another note, what exactly to did starseed do to be labelled an idiot?  I have reread the posts and to the best of my knowledge, all I can see is him being mistaken on the differences between the phalanx and the goalkeeper, and I must confess, I am guilty of the same misunderstanding, well, at least until reading this thread anyway.  Were there other posts made that were deleted?