Hillier Arming Canada For War

[Britney Spears]

Oh you know what I meant........

 

[edadian]

CFL re-educate implies there was education. With our obsession in this country lately of only teaching the 3 R's it shouldn't be surprising that people are ignorant of international affairs and defence. Maybe we should all write our MLA and have the role of DND added to grade 9 civics.

I agree with Britney that to be a good peacekeeper you have to scare both sides into compliance. Also mentioned the Foreign Legion, could a Canadian Foreign Legion/Brigade help our recruiting problem? Maybe a new thread in that question.

 

[pbi]

And yet you pass up your chance to go to that other site.

You know, if about 20 professional soldiers went over there, and posted with real names, in a dignified, professional manner, perhaps one or two sheep lurking there might actually learn something.

So what's stoppin' y'all?

I did it! I did it!

Cheers

 

[CanadianBoy92]

I think we need some combat aircraft and some aircraft to take us over there before going.  I think it makes no sense to rely on other countries to take us over.  We have to stop piggy backing other countries and get some our selves.  There is no way we can't afford aircraft such as these, we are the 2nd largest country and have 3rd largest land mass.  We should have enough resources to afford these things.  Also we only have a small polpulation.  We need chinooks, some nice combat aircraft, some humvees would be good to.

 

[Dog]

I think we need some combat aircraft and some aircraft to take us over there before going.  I think it makes no sense to rely on other countries to take us over.  We have to stop piggy backing other countries and get some our selves.  There is no way we can't afford aircraft such as these, we are the 2nd largest country and have 3rd largest land mass.  We should have enough resources to afford these things.  Also we only have a small polpulation.  We need chinooks, some nice combat aircraft, some humvees would be good to.

^
^
^
That is, quite simply put, prose.

You should be writing defence policy.... or speeches for the PM.

 

[George Wallace]

Link to this discusion on VoyForums is now useless.

 

[48Highlander]

I agree with Britney that to be a good peacekeeper you have to scare both sides into compliance.

This is the key point really, and it's why most arguments about international law are pointless.  In our own legal system, the state has the power to back it's decisions, and to enforce a compromise.  That's why we go to courts to settle civil disputes, because you know that, while you may not end up totaly satesfied with the outcome, it'll be a fair compromise and the state will use it's power to make sure the other guy meets his end of the bargain.  Peacekeeping is, or should be, the same deal.  The UN, or whoever the neutal party on the ground is, says "this is the way it's going to be".  And they bring enough boots and guns to make sure both sides know that anyone who violates the terms is not going to get away with it.  Without that, having troops there is pointless.  Who'd bother going to a civil court if you knew that any judgement was not going to be enforced?

 

[ImanIdiot]

This is the key point really, and it's why most arguments about international law are pointless.   In our own legal system, the state has the power to back it's decisions, and to enforce a compromise.   That's why we go to courts to settle civil disputes, because you know that, while you may not end up totaly satesfied with the outcome, it'll be a fair compromise and the state will use it's power to make sure the other guy meets his end of the bargain.   Peacekeeping is, or should be, the same deal.   The UN, or whoever the neutal party on the ground is, says "this is the way it's going to be".   And they bring enough boots and guns to make sure both sides know that anyone who violates the terms is not going to get away with it.   Without that, having troops there is pointless.   Who'd bother going to a civil court if you knew that any judgement was not going to be enforced?

Well said....you should post this in the other forum, perhaps it will further their education of what peacekeeping really is.....but I doubt it. Some people wont except anything other than us handing out teddy bears and bandaids, and that's the way its always going to be.

 

[Haggis]

Arm Canada for War? What do these people think our job is? Not to mention the 80 odd Canadian civilians murdered in NYC Sept 11 2001, a pretty dramatic declaration of war by the other side.

It was only 23, Art.   (One of whom was an uncle of one of my soldiers.)   Lucky for Al Queda, none were killed with an unregistered firearm.   Otherwise, the Liberals would be on a CRUSADE to root out and legislate against Islamic terrorism.   Since the aircraft used on 9/11 were duly registered, 9/11 was no big deal to the Canadian ruling class.   Ergo, no need for a just "war" by Canada.

... am I ranting???

 

[TCBF]

Hey, remember there are two Classes of Canadians.

In class two, you have Canadians working in dangerous places - like New York - not to mention "Working for the Yankee Dollar", so they don't really count in Ottawa.

Class two also includes Canadians of dual citizenship who refuse to divest themselves of the history, culture and politics of 'the old country' thus draging  Ottawa into a situation it finds inconvenient.  Like those poor souls on the bombed Air India flight.  None even counted as statistical 'Canadians killed by terrorism'.

To bad the bombers are Sihk and not AQ, or we could ship'em to Gitmo and 'put them to the question'.

Tom

 

[Eland]

Methinks the news media are blowing things out of proportion here (surprise, surprise). Buying barely more than a battery's worth of 155mm howitzers and 50 armoured patrol vehicles equipped with GPMG's is hardly what I would call true preparation for war.

Now, if DND had announced large-scale purchases of tanks, tracked infantry fighting vehicles, attack helos and a requirement for large numbers of combat troops, then I would have no trouble believing the media reports.

I applaud the decision to start buying weapons and kit quickly to ensure, as far as is possible given the dilapidated state of the CF, that our troops have some of the essentials when they land. I wish that DND had gone a little further.

Hillier warned us that Afghanistan was going to be a twenty-year commitment when all was said and done. That said, I suspect that this deployment of 2,000 troops and the new kit purchases are just the beginning. I could easily see the Afghan mission being expanded in the next several years. That might even see very rapid expansion if Israel (or the US) jumps on Iran - at that stage, the US will need forces in Afghanistan to protect its northwestern flanks.

 

[Dog]

Methinks the news media are blowing things out of proportion here (surprise, surprise). Buying barely more than a battery's worth of 155mm howitzers and 50 armoured patrol vehicles equipped with GPMG's is hardly what I would call true preparation for war.

Now, if DND had announced large-scale purchases of tanks, tracked infantry fighting vehicles, attack helos and a requirement for large numbers of combat troops, then I would have no trouble believing the media reports.

I applaud the decision to start buying weapons and kit quickly to ensure, as far as is possible given the dilapidated state of the CF, that our troops have some of the essentials when they land. I wish that DND had gone a little further.

Hillier warned us that Afghanistan was going to be a twenty-year commitment when all was said and done. That said, I suspect that this deployment of 2,000 troops and the new kit purchases are just the beginning. I could easily see the Afghan mission being expanded in the next several years. That might even see very rapid expansion if Israel (or the US) jumps on Iran - at that stage, the US will need forces in Afghanistan to protect its northwestern flanks.

While it's not feasible, nor strictly necessary, to buy the equipment you mentioned above, I fail to see why even purchases like that should be argued against. Buying some new tanks, instead of the MGS, and some Apaches, and maybe a few nuclear subs, with an aircraft carrier wouldn't be seen as a problem around here. And there has been talk by the Liberals and the Conservatives to increase the mapower of the CF by 5,000-15,000..... not a small jump when compared to total strength of the CF as a whole.... personally I think we should have a more robust army in order to assume a more independent and assertive role in the world, that way we can take people to task for situations like Darfur. But talk is cheap..... that's why politicians have gotten away with starving the military to the point where the purchase of a rifle can be noted and scrutunized.

 

[GO!!!]

While it's not feasible, nor strictly necessary, to buy the equipment you mentioned above,

WTF? How many suicide bombs and IEDs have to happen before we get a real armoured patrol vehicle? That no one has died in an up armoured LUVW is a bloody miracle, and speaks more to the incompetence of the bad guys than the great kit that we use. It is adequate, but pardon me for saying that we deserve the best - not the bare minimum.

The Nyala will save lives, but apparently we are better off thinking along the lines of saving $40,000, per patrol vehicle and sending more flag draped coffins home.

What exactly is your definition of "feasible"?

 

[kincanucks]

I thought it would be appropriate to add this to the thread.  The CDS was the Attestation Officer at an enrolment ceremony in Ottawa today.  One of the enrollees was his son who is going to be an Armoured Officer under CEOTP.  Unfortunately, for some unknown reason, there was no media there to cover the event.  Too bad as it would have been interesting to see the headline: "Canada's top soldier does his part by enrolling his own son."


[EDITTED to remove " " from text.]

 

[pbi]

Gen Hillier was the Guest of Honour at the 09 Dec graduation for the Adv Mil Studies Course here at CFC. I finally met him, and heard him speak. He has more charisma and "people qualities" than almost all the Cdn generals I have ever met, with a very few notable exceptions. He is making some enemies, both internally and externally, but that is what happens when you try to change a military institution and a national way of thinking.

Cheers

 

[Danjanou]

I thought it would be appropriate to add this to the thread.   The CDS was the Attestation Officer at an enrolment ceremony in Ottawa today.   One of the enrollees was his son who is going to be an Armoured Officer under CEOTP.   Unfortunately, for some unknown reason, there was no media there to cover the event.   Too bad as it would have been interesting to see the headline: "Canada's top soldier does his part by enrolling his own son."

Sad, and it speaks to the mindset ( is that an oxymoron ?) of this once proud and great nation that for some perverse reason we still seem to love and defend. In almost any other "allied" nation US, UK Australia NZ etc this would have made the news. :

 

[Dog]

WTF? How many suicide bombs and IEDs have to happen before we get a real armoured patrol vehicle? That no one has died in an up armoured LUVW is a bloody miracle,....

What exactly is your definition of "feasible"?

It's not feasible because the Canadian public would create an uproar, and opposition to a plan that includes purchases of this magnitude would be impossible for our Parlimentary "leaders" to ignore. It would be the EH-101 all over again.

Could you imagine what would happen if we purchased M1's, Attack choppers, and a surface battlegroup? Let alone actually used them in an aggressive role?

Don't get me wrong.... I'd love to see our Military get the best kit available, hell, I'm going to be heading to A'stan eventually.... but I'm perfectly willing to admit that even with our current CDS it's not going to happen.

 

[Infanteer]

Could you imagine what would happen if we purchased M1's, Attack choppers, and a surface battlegroup? Let alone actually used them in an aggressive role?

He's talking about the RG-31

 

[Dog]

He's talking about the RG-31

I wasn't, otherwise I wouldn't have posted in the first place.

I think the RG-31 is a good idea.

 

[RCD]

I personally have no problem with the Military being armed.We need the equipment first before being commtied