High Ranking Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly
- Thread starter Bruce Monkhouse
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A useful ten minute primer: Warrantless Arrests - Criminal Law Notebook
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So, how can a police officer meet the minimum standards when they are prohibited by law from using a firearm?
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I'd say the same way not a zero percentage of military folks can't pass a fitness test....
He may not. We’ll see what OPS professional standards and a conduct authority decide.
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Flying a desk or reorganizing the archives in the basement?
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There are adequate be precedents to put such an individual o leave without pay
Haggis
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That's probably a requirement of his collective agreement. Now that he's been convicted that may be nullified.
I've seen officers from my agency sacked for less.
It’s not. Purely provincial regulation.
Booter
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i don’t have any of my stuff with me- but I believe the last time I was involved in applying for a pay stoppage for someone who is off on conduct- the general rule of thumb for cop discipline- had to be that there had to be a great probability that they would lose their job, so if the precedent of a firearm prohibition for a year usually gets the axe- then it may result in a stoppage.
But I don’t believe it’s the case. Cops with suspended licences go off the road for a year in an admin capacity- then return. I believe they argued the same in these cases successfully.
I don’t believe you’ll see a pay stoppage.
I’m really going off some dated memory though. I don’t agree- but I believe it’s the case.
What is needed- is a system that finished disciplinary hearings after the person retires. Currently too many officers are not getting that much needed conclusion on discipline matters by retiring. It may mean nothing- and it can’t lead to meaningful consequences but we should be at least adding notes on their file and finishing.
But I don’t believe it’s the case. Cops with suspended licences go off the road for a year in an admin capacity- then return. I believe they argued the same in these cases successfully.
I don’t believe you’ll see a pay stoppage.
I’m really going off some dated memory though. I don’t agree- but I believe it’s the case.
What is needed- is a system that finished disciplinary hearings after the person retires. Currently too many officers are not getting that much needed conclusion on discipline matters by retiring. It may mean nothing- and it can’t lead to meaningful consequences but we should be at least adding notes on their file and finishing.
Booter
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The Ontario reference I found:
Not the case here. I couldn’t see any other without pay authorities.
(Ontario “Police Services Act”)
Suspension without pay
(6) If a chief of police, deputy chief of police or other police officer is convicted of an offence and sentenced to a term of imprisonment, the chief of police or board, as the case may be, may suspend him or her without pay, even if the conviction or sentence is under appeal. 2007, c. 5, s. 10.Not the case here. I couldn’t see any other without pay authorities.
(Ontario “Police Services Act”)
lenaitch
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There isn't any. The Community Safety and Policing Act, which contains provisions for 'suspension w/o pay, was passed in 2019 but is not in force. The government has been working "really hard" to get it passed and the e-laws webpage now says April 1, 2024. We'll see. There has been a lot of background changes to areas such as police service boards but I don't know where the specific regulation regarding suspensions stands (the Act itself will allow it but the details will be in the regulation). There are obviously two fairly dig in sides here: the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police and the various bargaining units.The Ontario reference I found:
Suspension without pay
(6) If a chief of police, deputy chief of police or other police officer is convicted of an offence and sentenced to a term of imprisonment, the chief of police or board, as the case may be, may suspend him or her without pay, even if the conviction or sentence is under appeal. 2007, c. 5, s. 10.
Not the case here. I couldn’t see any other without pay authorities.
Booter
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Real reformation of the conduct process across the country is needed at every agency is needed in my opinion. Which counts for nothing. I’ve yet to see one that moves at a reasonable pace and keeps ahead of itself. Edmonton Police Service is closest.
You’d need to adjust the various provincial acts and the rcmp act.
There should be a service court of delegated authority in each province with its own investigators and conduct authorities, they have a year from a report to get it to the court and have it heard.
It is in most cases not in the best interest of the cops that are accused to live under the accusation and complaint for years. Get it. Get it heard. Get it done.
It needs to be way faster than it is presently to hear founded conduct issues.
The present system only works to say “there is a system” but it serves no one. Not the good cops. Not the services. Not the public trust.
I am admittedly a “lots of low level discipline, early, saves high level conduct later” guy. Combine that with experienced leaders on the road and you’d see Better results
You’d need to adjust the various provincial acts and the rcmp act.
There should be a service court of delegated authority in each province with its own investigators and conduct authorities, they have a year from a report to get it to the court and have it heard.
It is in most cases not in the best interest of the cops that are accused to live under the accusation and complaint for years. Get it. Get it heard. Get it done.
It needs to be way faster than it is presently to hear founded conduct issues.
The present system only works to say “there is a system” but it serves no one. Not the good cops. Not the services. Not the public trust.
I am admittedly a “lots of low level discipline, early, saves high level conduct later” guy. Combine that with experienced leaders on the road and you’d see Better results
OldSolduer
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Couldn't agree moreReal reformation of the conduct process across the country is needed at every agency is needed in my opinion. Which counts for nothing. I’ve yet to see one that moves at a reasonable pace and keeps ahead of itself. Edmonton Police Service is closest.
You’d need to adjust the various provincial acts and the rcmp act.
There should be a service court of delegated authority in each province with its own investigators and conduct authorities, they have a year from a report to get it to the court and have it heard.
It is in most cases not in the best interest of the cops that are accused to live under the accusation and complaint for years. Get it. Get it heard. Get it done.
It needs to be way faster than it is presently to hear founded conduct issues.
The present system only works to say “there is a system” but it serves no one. Not the good cops. Not the services. Not the public trust.
I am admittedly a “lots of low level discipline, early, saves high level conduct later” guy. Combine that with experienced leaders on the road and you’d see Better results
lenaitch
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We'd still be stuck with the criminal side for serious matters. I would suspect that the pending Ontario 'suspension w/o pay' regulations will largely deal with matters arising from criminal activity.Real reformation of the conduct process across the country is needed at every agency is needed in my opinion. Which counts for nothing. I’ve yet to see one that moves at a reasonable pace and keeps ahead of itself. Edmonton Police Service is closest.
You’d need to adjust the various provincial acts and the rcmp act.
There should be a service court of delegated authority in each province with its own investigators and conduct authorities, they have a year from a report to get it to the court and have it heard.
It is in most cases not in the best interest of the cops that are accused to live under the accusation and complaint for years. Get it. Get it heard. Get it done.
It needs to be way faster than it is presently to hear founded conduct issues.
The present system only works to say “there is a system” but it serves no one. Not the good cops. Not the services. Not the public trust.
I am admittedly a “lots of low level discipline, early, saves high level conduct later” guy. Combine that with experienced leaders on the road and you’d see Better results
Police conduct legislation is basically specialized employment law. The Ontario legislation hasn't effectively changed in years, but has become bogged down in process. Blame lies on both sides. The days of being hauled up before the Superintendent for a yelling with extreme prejudice then everybody moving on, is long gone. Everybody lawyers/reps-up, investigators assigned, Briefs prepared. Management's main focus seems to be 'has the Service been embarrassed? The Association's main focus seems to be go to the wall on every little issue.
Booter
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Lenaitch, I’m not shooting the messenger- and I know what you’re saying is true. But I’m just not accepting that anymore. Dedicate specialized resources to it and clean up the speed. Have the reps and go as far as you’d like in defence of them.
I’m sick and tired of the same objections. Overhaul the damn system. At least a dozen (edit) senior NCOs off for sexual misconduct- for years. Collecting cheques, sitting at home. Ditto multi times over discipline issue officers.
There is going to be an update to a story from a few months ago coming soon- a member that was suspended and coded and at their hearing we got a parade of “he’s a good guy” and the female hearing officer said “police officers are people too and make mistakes”
Now we’re back for the same issue again. Right back to the news- right back to another multi year process. Maybe he ll hit twenty years and retire. And we lose the whole thing. And they’ll have been eating cheetos playing Nintendo for years.
The system needs to do better or disappear. Because it’s a farce and so is any police officer who would defend it (you weren’t defending it- you were explaining the current circumstances- I don’t mean you and or anyone in here)
We don’t have power over the length of time criminal matters take or that it makes sense to deal with those first. The majority of conduct does not have an adjacent criminal process. We can’t control that- but we can control our side of the house.
It requires legislation changes. Recently discussing these issues with another profession board- they were mortified that our process moves like it does and the process just ends if they resign. Their board finishes the hearing and the finding even if they can’t enforce the outcome- and the person can continue to make their defence if they like- but the process doesn’t just disappear. It should be no different for every police officer in Canada.
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lenaitch
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Agree, but I'm not sure how much we can control our side of the house or how effective any legislative change would be; although the fact that another professional board seems to do better gives some hope. I'm not familiar at all with the RCMP process, but the entire regulatory system - which the Police Services Act Code of Conduct process in Ontario is part of - has been allowed to bog down, largely by the courts. Motions are made, applications for judicial review made on the motions decision, appeals to different regulatory levels; it goes on and on.Lenaitch, I’m not shooting the messenger- and I know what you’re saying is true. But I’m just not accepting that anymore. Dedicate specialized resources to it and clean up the speed. Have the reps and go as far as you’d like in defence of them.
I’m sick and tired of the same objections. Overhaul the damn system. At least a dozen (edit) senior NCOs off for sexual misconduct- for years. Collecting cheques, sitting at home. Ditto multi times over discipline issue officers.
There is going to be an update to a story from a few months ago coming soon- a member that was suspended and coded and at their hearing we got a parade of “he’s a good guy” and the female hearing officer said “police officers are people too and make mistakes”
Now we’re back for the same issue again. Right back to the news- right back to another multi year process. Maybe he ll hit twenty years and retire. And we lose the whole thing. And they’ll have been eating cheetos playing Nintendo for years.
The system needs to do better or disappear. Because it’s a farce and so is any police officer who would defend it (you weren’t defending it- you were explaining the current circumstances- I don’t mean you and or anyone in here)
We don’t have power over the length of time criminal matters take or that it makes sense to deal with those first. The majority of conduct does not have an adjacent criminal process. We can’t control that- but we can control our side of the house.
It requires legislation changes. Recently discussing these issues with another profession board- they were mortified that our process moves like it does and the process just ends if they resign. Their board finishes the hearing and the finding even if they can’t enforce the outcome- and the person can continue to make their defence if they like- but the process doesn’t just disappear. It should be no different for every police officer in Canada.
Other than the players and venue, a Martian walking in on a disciplinary hearing could be excused for thinking they walked in on a judge-alone criminal trial. The 'quasi' part of what has historically been a quasi judicial process has largely gone out the window. The fact that there are several lawyers who pretty much exclusively practice in PSA matters should be telling.
I don't think it is just us. Media reports of efforts to discipline/toss other professions like doctors or teachers don't seem to suggest they are doing much better, at least in Ontario. Sometimes it might simply be a matter of adequate funding or staffing to move matters along, but I honestly think that the system, supported by the courts, is too ripe for gaming.
There is an inquest just started regarding a fatal police shooting that happened 10 years ago. Inquests have their role, but nobody is in jeopardy from their outcome. Criminal/PSA matters have long past; civil matters are ongoing and completely separate. They've trying to get this thing underway since 2022 but it has been bogged down in motions and other procedural wrangling.
Don't get me wrong; I'm all for protecting individual rights to fair treatment, but the institution, and the public, have rights as well that employees follow the rules they said they would.
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