HF - Lost art or Lost Cause

[luck881]

There was supposed to be a cell system in TCCCS, it was one of the options we didn't buy.   SCRA, I think it was called... you remember that RadOp?

 

[Bert]

Due to the frequencies used, the propagation effects and the topology of the comms network,
the frequency band (HF, VHF, UHF, SHF, and beyond) has it own uses, draw-backs and capabilities. 
You wouldn't want to replace a "cell" network with a VHF system.

HF is hard to keep secure.  The frequency band used and propagaton effects doesn't lend itself well to
high bandwidth digital encoding/decoding, encryption, or managable mobile antenna systems.  Yet,
for reasonably low power transmission, unsecure voice comms can travel a good distance that doesn't
have to be near "line of sight" like other bands.  Cost of equipment is lower than radio systems at other
bands and can be easily modified in the field.  HF certainly has its place. 

 

[Radop]

Interesting discussion... if you don't mind an Infantry Soldier joining, from my experience on my last tour we definitely need HF. In East Timor I was a Recce section comder, and the 77-set was useless at anything more than 500m. So the Recce sections carried the 138 on patrols. We had to stop every 2 hours, set up the antenna (NVIS ?) and report to the CP. Not ideal, but better than no comms...
If I remember correctly, we were the first ones to use the 138 on ops.

The first one to use the 138 was the mission to Rwanda/Zaire/Uganda in '96.   You might of been the first to use it in the man pack varriant.

NVIS = Near Verticle Incedent System (or skywave as we say).   The whip wouldn't work?   Did you try a longwire?

Did you know any of the NRL guys who deployed with you? (satallite guys)

 

[Radop]

HF is definitely not a field friendly set up if you are constantly on the move.

I always wondered if DND should go out a purchase some cell phone towers that we could possibly employ while deployed and have our own private cell phone service. Think about it, if we had a fleet of ships working together, or a unit on the ground in a foreign country that had no infrastructure, this could be set up and communications could be maintained at a good distance (as long as the tower can be located in a high area).

I'm sure that anyone that has been deployed would agree that HF comms must be maintained.

I have used HF on the move with our bisons and the IRPVs.   I had to shorten the NVIS antenna to 5 sections but comms were fairly reliable.   I did this in afghanistan just to test to see if it was reliable.

Due to the frequencies used, the propagation effects and the topology of the comms network,
the frequency band (HF, VHF, UHF, SHF, and beyond) has it own uses, draw-backs and capabilities.
You wouldn't want to replace a "cell" network with a VHF system.

HF is hard to keep secure. The frequency band used and propagaton effects doesn't lend itself well to
high bandwidth digital encoding/decoding, encryption, or managable mobile antenna systems. Yet,
for reasonably low power transmission, unsecure voice comms can travel a good distance that doesn't
have to be near "line of sight" like other bands. Cost of equipment is lower than radio systems at other
bands and can be easily modified in the field. HF certainly has its place.

HF comms can be encrypted easily with a 99, 84 or 194a.  As long as the settings are the same, no problems.  Thats why we have SOPs.

 

[Radop]

There was supposed to be a cell system in TCCCS, it was one of the options we didn't buy.   SCRA, I think it was called... you remember that RadOp?

Correct but it was not "cellular" as in telephone system.  It was like a repeater for the 522 to the commander on the ground moving from trench to trench.  I was far too big and combersome and was dropped.  Funny enough, the Brits are thinking of buying it and incorporating it into the system they purchased from GDC.  Our Cellular system was called OPCAP 2.

 

[Jungle]

The first one to use the 138 was the mission to Rwanda/Zaire/Uganda in '96.   You might of been the first to use it in the man pack varriant.

Thanks for the clarification; yes we used it in manpack, we carried it around on our backs and on ATVs. We used the 77-set for very-short range foot patrols, or when manning refugee arrival points, all within 500m of the camp.

  NVIS = Near Verticle Incedent System (or skywave as we say).   The whip wouldn't work?   Did you try a longwire?

The whip didn't work, and we didn't try the longwire. Comms were very problematic over there... so was the GPS for that matter.

Did you know any of the NRL guys who deployed with you? (satallite guys)

I knew them, but not personally... I believe one was from outside Valcartier, but I think the NRL guys were mostly from 5 CMBG HQ & Sigs.

 

[Radop]

I knew them, but not personally... I believe one was from outside Valcartier, but I think the NRL guys were mostly from 5 CMBG HQ & Sigs.

The NRL guys would have been from Kingston.  They had a satillite dish at one site and had BT2s at the other site.  They operated the commcen.

 

[Jungle]

The NRL guys would have been from Kingston.   They had a satillite dish at one site and had BT2s at the other site.   They operated the commcen.

OK, the NRL guys were in Dili with the NCE. We never saw them... The BT2s were either at Suai (NSE co-located with NZ Batt SVC Coy) or Zumalai (CDN Coy main camp). I spent most of the tour in patrol bases, away from the main camps.

 

[CH1]

Hey guys!

  Do they still teach RF & antenna theory at Kingston?  Part of the comms problem in mtn areas could be caused by iron like ore deposits or low level radiation, or ghosting from the terrain.

  Don't know what the syllabus contains any more, since it's been a long time since I did my courses.
  & yes I am RCCS, but have spent most of my time as 031.
 
  My own expierence with HF leads me to keep HF.  In the early 80's, I did some experimental work with an all band, all mode XCVR that was about the size of 2 packs of cigs with 9 volt batts.  Lo pwr out at 1 watt, with what at the time was experimental plessey chips.  It worked great when I used long wire for the antenna, in the Rockies.  Maybe the military needs to rethink the boat anchor theory again like when the C33/AT3 finally bought the bullet.

Cheers

 

[Radop]

Very limited theory taught now in kingston.  They don't construct field expediant antennas or anything like that.  They are too busy teaching them LAN systems (over a month) when only 1% or less of the guys coming out of the school will go to an IS position.  I think it is sad how little time they spend on actual VP, Radio Theory/Practical and daily det routine.  That is more of the reason why our people don't know the radio systems and what to do if they break.

 

[291er]

As for the discussion regarding the security of cell phones......no matter what the companies come up with for encryption or security, someone's usually figured out a way to intercept and decode it before it even hits the commercial market.  And the STU-III cells are useless, they're known far and wide as the "cone of silence".  IP phones are fairly secure and fast becoming the new fad in secure comms. 
Even if you put a piece of string between two cans, somehow we'll manage to tie a third string onto it and listen in without you knowing  >

 

[who980]

Hello,

Just thought I'd add my two cents in here.

HF Comms - Essential in the Navy for intership and ship/shore comms.  Wether that be plainvoice, secure voice or radio teletype (RATT).  We use them all, and all the time at sea.  Although radio teletype for receipt and transmission of message traffic has been somewhat taken over by satellite, it is still essential in the case that satcom ceases to work or when in areas at sea where satcom is not an option (out of the footprint).

HF Voice (Plain/Secure) is essential for over the horizon communications with other units as UHF as we all know is line of sight.

-Ryan

 

[CH1]

  Its too bad that they are not teaching enough of the "low level tech" stuff any more.  I realise the computer is taking over but basic antenna & propogation theory is still vital info.  From what I see, the eqt is supposed to be more operator freindly, but "appliance operators" are just that.  It still takes some basic knowledge to make even something like the dinosaur 19 set work to it's potental. 
  This rant is not intended to discredit the operators but to high light systemic problems.  You can only work with the equipment & knowledge you are given.  Years ago, even the grunt on the end of a PRC 26 or 510 received basic antenna & propogation theory. 

  It appears that the powers are caught in the tech trap. They can't see the trees for the forest.

  cheers

 

[DaveK]

Anyone who takes basic comms is taught antenna theory and how to calculate length.  They are also taught propagation and the different types of radio waves.

 

[Radop]

As for the discussion regarding the security of cell phones......no matter what the companies come up with for encryption or security, someone's usually figured out a way to intercept and decode it before it even hits the commercial market.   And the STU-III cells are useless, they're known far and wide as the "cone of silence".   IP phones are fairly secure and fast becoming the new fad in secure comms.  
Even if you put a piece of string between two cans, somehow we'll manage to tie a third string onto it and listen in without you knowing   >

one word and 4 numbers for you

Iridium 9505

Intercept that 291er, lol

 

[Bert]

I guess one would have to define the course content for antenna, transmission, and propagation
theory and at what level is necessary for comms operators, technicians, or engineers.     As radio equipment
and servicability evolves, the military education system may be tweaked.   Alot of radio equipment is
puchased as a kit, from power supplies, transceivers, coax, to antennas; meaning this "radio" goes with
this "antenna" today.   Building field antennas like simple dipoles for HF radios are easy but constructing similar
antennas at 800 MHz impedence matched for medium power transmitters with acceptable coverage
and not blowing the PA is another thing.   Alot of field problems are servicable on-the-spot like broken
connectors, bad cables, swapping of defective equipment.   Replacing oscillators, tuning radios, fixing power
supplies, measuring field strength, SWR, or using a spectrum analyser takes parts, location, and more specific
knowledge.

As for the Iridium system, any intelligence service with the listening capability is monitoring the comms.   Whether
they get any content from encoded comms is another story, but a fair portion of the engineering of what
Motorola/consortium put into it is "public" knowldege.

 

[291er]

Toucher Radop Toucher
However, if I can't break it, I am sure my secret squirrel brothers down south sure can hehehehe.

 

[buzgo]

Toucher Radop Toucher
However, if I can't break it, I am sure my secret squirrel brothers down south sure can hehehehe.

Especially since the US DOD owns the system, don't they?

 

[Radop]

I have one in my det, don't think I will turn it in when I leave.  I love it.  But alas, yes the US owns all our crypto except for the 522s.  We just have them on some agreement.  Look at the DTDs, they say government of US Property.

But, back to HF..... You can intercept the signal but with the 99s, it is hard to get intel other than DF the loc.  If you move every few hours, then you should be ok.  Better yet, use directional antennas.

 

[CH1]

  Thx Bert, for the clearing the muddy waters.  Being assigned away fm sigs except the odd take charge of a det, has taken the toll.  Been 031 for along time now & have lost touch.  Most of my buddies have long  retired now so I don't get to keep in touch.

  As long as they are still teaching at least basic antenna & propogation theory, there is always a chance that a sig will figure a way to talk.

  1 trick I used on HF & VHF was to carry 2 foil space blankets, as portable directors.  Small & light.  Not good for a hide but worked good on the fwd CP.  Once or twice even used a tree for the antenna.  Short range but it proved the concept.  Terminal impedence was definetely a problem!

  Yep, I agree, the solid state finals do not like a mismatch.  Didn't see it personally, but from what I heard the C45's were real touchy in the finals.  Had the odd tendency to flame out. The old C42's were a little more tolerant but had other problems.

  There is a great demand on the functions of a radio, especially in mil use, but the engineers should have to use their creations in the enviornment.  Maybe some of the quirks would disappear.

cheers