Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too

[Edward Campbell]

To be fair, a lot of Canadians don't know we have a Navy.  Recently checked CGCS to get the right NSN for the clothing stores in Ottawa; I think the list price for NCDs is closer to $600 for the pants, shirt and jacket; I think it's criminal that anyone riding a desk is wearing those, particularily when there always seemed to be a shortage of common sizes everytime I went to clothing stores in Halifax.  Also, the NCDs fit like a burlap sack with room for two around the waist, and while comfortable, look sloppy.  S&Ps look pretty sharp, are reasonably comfortable, and anytime you deal with civilians, you look professional.  And probably cost about $25 for the shirt and pants.  Seems like a no brainer to me.

At the end of the day, if someone can't tell you are in the Navy when you have a great big shiny anchor in the middle of your hat badge and Canada on your shoulder, I don't think NCDs will make a difference.

Agreed, fully, and it applies equally to army combat uniforms in HQs.

Sixty years ago everyone knew what a Canadian military uniform represented. That had nothing to do with the shape, colour or cut of the uniform; it was because just 70 years ago one person in 12, about one youngish man in four had worn one of those uniforms in WWII. By the 1970s our national institutional memory was wearing down ... the men and women who had worn uniforms still knew who we were, even though the colour and cut of our uniforms had changed, but their parents were dead. Now there are precious few of those who who wore uniforms in WWII alive ... we, and the people we serve are disconnected and the uniform style is not the problem ... in fact I'm not certain it even is a problem.

 

[Stoker]

I am going to fully support FTSO here.

We must bear in mind that  Navies, unlike the Army or Air Force, have a diplomatic role to play in peace time and in their actual daily work. As a result of the fact that we constantly meet and work around other nations on the neutral ground that is the sea, and the fact that  we meet one another, host one another and "represent" our own countries in the eye of foreign nations on a continual basis, ALL nations have developed a code of conduct and of image projection in the world. And that image does not include the shore based personnel looking like a bunch of mechanics going to work (my apologies to the Mar Eng's of this world). I ask you to look at pictures of the shore based naval personal of any nation and I guarantee you will see that in 99.99% of there cases, they re working and appearing in the equivalent of our DEU's - not in their shipboard rig, regardless of how tacky that shipboard dress' camouflage look is (for the USN ).

And I fully agree that Navies don't need camouflage pattern clothing.

Also, just a question here, when did OOD become part of the Damage control rapid response ????? If the OOD is getting down and dirty fighting the fire or flood, he/she is not doing his/her job of thinking the problem through and being the overall coordinator.

The OOD in home or foreign port is one of the members of the RRT and actively conducts rapid response on a fire before heading to the command postion. This has been occuring for as long as I can remember.

 

[Stoker]

Honestly I never heard of the Salt and Peppers going away, it wasn't in the dress minutes I recently read and you may think it would be if slated to go away. I like Salt and Peppers, when I do need to wear them they look sharp and protray a professional look. As for NCD's I think they are fine the way they are, if the public can't see the anchor we wear on them and make the connection we are Navy then they need to smarten up. Seems to me a nice set of fire resistant coveralls at sea should be in order, probably be less money then replacing a $600 set of NCD's and probably last longer as long as they don't source them from logistik.

 

[Dipstick]

The OOD in home or foreign port is one of the members of the RRT and actively conducts rapid response on a fire before heading to the command postion. This has been occuring for as long as I can remember.

I did an exchange with the RNZN for a while - in that Navy, the OOD (who was typically dressed in full uniform with jacket and tie) would head straight to a command position and make pipes. They described this to me as the "proper commonwealth way", and were quite surprised to hear that we did it any differently. We must have conducted DC similarily at some point in the past.

Based on said exchange, and on what I know of some of HM's other Naval Services, we're already fairly relaxed in our dress standard. As another example, I once asked to wear Salt and Pepper vice Whites during the summer in NZ; I was told this was a "Rating's rig", and not formal enough for officers to wear (again, cue the shock when I told them we consider it fairly "dressed up"). We also had to be in DEU whilst entering and leaving harbour, and the boatswains all had a spare set of whites/medals that they wore while line handling.

All that to say, I think we've managed to strike a pretty good balance between common sense and formality here in the RCN. To full-on remove what is essentially our business casual dress, and have us sit at desks, attend meetings, and conduct shore business in ill-fitting blue work shirts and cargo pants is pushing it, IMHO.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Actually I like the navy league uniform, practical and you look like a sailor

Are you talking about the chap on the left of the pic?  Seems like there is a shortage of nametags and ab-masters at that location.  :blotto:

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Are you talking about the chap on the left of the pic?  Seems like there is a shortage of nametags and ab-masters at that location.  :blotto:

To their discharge, and also to their credit, Navy League "officers" are volunteer parents, not members of the CF, not even of the Cadet Instructors Cadre.

I don't know if the Air Cadets or Army Cadets have anything similar to the Navy League Cadets: These are younger kids of an age that is below the age at which they can joint the Sea Cadets Corps. It is a fully volunteer and fully independent movement more akin to the cub scouts. The CF provides no support whatsoever to these corps except, sometimes but not in all cases, providing access to armouries/Naval reserve units or agreeing to co-locate the NL corps with an actual sea cadet corps.

 

[captloadie]

I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

 

[dimsum]

I did an exchange with the RNZN for a while - in that Navy, the OOD (who was typically dressed in full uniform with jacket and tie) would head straight to a command position and make pipes. They described this to me as the "proper commonwealth way", and were quite surprised to hear that we did it any differently. We must have conducted DC similarily at some point in the past.

Based on said exchange, and on what I know of some of HM's other Naval Services, we're already fairly relaxed in our dress standard. As another example, I once asked to wear Salt and Pepper vice Whites during the summer in NZ; I was told this was a "Rating's rig", and not formal enough for officers to wear (again, cue the shock when I told them we consider it fairly "dressed up"). We also had to be in DEU whilst entering and leaving harbour, and the boatswains all had a spare set of whites/medals that they wore while line handling.

All that to say, I think we've managed to strike a pretty good balance between common sense and formality here in the RCN. To full-on remove what is essentially our business casual dress, and have us sit at desks, attend meetings, and conduct shore business in ill-fitting blue work shirts and cargo pants is pushing it, IMHO.

Interesting, because my RAN colleagues said that they are closer to us in the dress department (DPNU at sea vice Service Dress, etc.) 

Then again, the Aussies (RAAF and Army, perhaps Navy?) have a "DEU 3B with Medals" ceremonial dress that they wear for ANZAC Day, while we sweat in our DEU 1s.

 

[Dipstick]

I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

Yes, RCN personnel in RCAF/CA units where operational clothing is worn are to wear NCD. Something about protecting Naval identity.

However, inside the RCN proper, DEU 3B (salt and pepper) is almost always dress of the day for PO2 and up. A dress policy change like the one being discussed here would not impact sailors like the ones you work with; rather, it would be a pretty fundamental change for Chiefs, POs, and Officers on the coasts.

Interesting, because my RAN colleagues said that they are closer to us in the dress department (DPNU at sea vice Service Dress, etc.) 

My only experience with the RAN was one day in an ANZAC on a cross-deck. I didn't depart with them (I was boat transferred) so I didn't see what they wore leaving. Quite a few officers were wearing whites with shorts when I got there, though. We wore NCD/GWD at sea in the RNZN too, we just weren't allowed to put it on until we were away from shore.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The person that came up with blue camouflage for sailors, should be taken out, shot, revived and then shot again.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

Now I am confused. I was under the impression that the RCN/RCF/CA thing was just renaming the old commands. How, then, did Comd RCN gain the authority to tell members of the CF what to wear when working for another command just because they happen to have been given a Navy DEU when they joined?

I mean, shouldn't what a Master Seaman Supply Tech posted to an Air Base wear be the dress of the day ordered by Comd RCAF, and likely delegated to the base commander? If a Petty officer cook is posted to an Army unit and it goes in the field, should that unit's CO not make arrangement for the cook to get into  CADPAT? And should it not be that  CO's decision - not Comd RCN?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The person that came up with blue camouflage for sailors, should be taken out, shot, revived and then shot again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5gwfjQEQ84

 

[FSTO]

I'm confused a bit about this whole thread. My understanding, being on a RCAF wing, was that the Comd RCN had dictated that all naval personnel, regardless of the environment they worked in would wear NCD's as their dress of day. CADPAT was not even an option. I remember having to order some poor LS to go to clothing stores to get sized and put in their orders. IS this not the case? Doesn't that make any decision about Salt and Peppers mute, seeing as its not the dress of day on most non RCN establishments?

That whole mess was due to RCN pers posted to Army or RCAF bases and the question about their entitlement to wear Cadpat (Army) or what ever the hell the RCAF call their pajamas.
This debate is a result of a rumour coming out of the Operational ( : east) coast that everyone will wear NCD's all the time. IMO this is as stupid and wasteful as pilots wearing flight suits as everyday wear even though they haven't seen the inside of a cockpit for years.

 

[Dipstick]

Now I am confused. I was under the impression that the RCN/RCF/CA thing was just renaming the old commands. How, then, did Comd RCN gain the authority to tell members of the CF what to wear when working for another command just because they happen to have been given a Navy DEU when they joined?

I mean, shouldn't what a Master Seaman Supply Tech posted to an Air Base wear be the dress of the day ordered by Comd RCAF, and likely delegated to the base commander? If a Petty officer cook is posted to an Army unit and it goes in the field, should that unit's CO not make arrangement for the cook to get into  CADPAT? And should it not be that  CO's decision - not Comd RCN?

This was ordered via VCDS CANFORGEN in 2009:

"ACCORDINGLY, CF MEMBERS ENTITLED TO THE NAVAL DISTINCTIVE ENVIRONMENTAL UNIFORM (DEU) ARE HEREBY DIRECTED TO WEAR NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) IN LIEU OF CADPAT, WHERE THE CADPAT IS PERMITTED BY COMDS AND CO S AS THE DRESS OF THE DAY. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CANFORGEN ARE PERMITTED FOR VALID OPERATIONAL REASONS ONLY, INCL EMPL IN ACTUAL FIELD OPS, FIELD TRG ACTIVITIES OR OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS"

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Now, a VCDS CANFORGEN makes more sense.

Thank You.

 

[PuckChaser]

Was it signed by the VCDS? I thought the last line in it was COMD RCN SENDS.

 

[Dipstick]

Was it signed by the VCDS? I thought the last line in it was COMD RCN SENDS.

I just looked it up. The OPI is listed as VCDS, the title is "CANFORGEN 198/09 VCDS 031 191500Z NOV 09", and what I posted above was the last thing it says. That said, I have no doubt that Comd RCN (CMS I guess in 2009) was the driving force behind the direction, with VCDS signing so that it would apply to people outside the Navy's purview.

 

[PuckChaser]

Ack, thanks. Away from DWAN so couldn't fact check my memory myself.

 

[jollyjacktar]

This debate is a result of a rumour coming out of the Operational ( : east) coast that everyone will wear NCD's all the time. IMO this is as stupid and wasteful as pilots wearing flight suits as everyday wear even though they haven't seen the inside of a cockpit for years.

The  : east coast doesn't have the market cornered on silly ideas and rumors to be fair.  I have been subjected to plenty of  : decisions arising from the left coast with their decisions on training etc.  Not to mention,  : : the puzzle palace, where I am headed next.

 

[Underway]

I just looked it up. The OPI is listed as VCDS, the title is "CANFORGEN 198/09 VCDS 031 191500Z NOV 09", and what I posted above was the last thing it says. That said, I have no doubt that Comd RCN (CMS I guess in 2009) was the driving force behind the direction, with VCDS signing so that it would apply to people outside the Navy's purview.

This created some interesting conflicts within some Army commands with attached Navy personelle.  LFCA Comd would have none of it at the time and all navy pers were required to draw and wear CADPAT every day despite the msg and the navy pers respectful protestations and waiving of the CANFORGEN.

SSI at 180 days is confirmed.  Just saw the msg and some pers are already receiving/authorized to get their gunmetals.