Hearing talk that Salt and Peppers are leaving too

[Halifax Tar]

Sorry, it's just too easy.

I was hoping nobody noticed that lol

 

[Underway]

Careful that kind of idea will get you defaulters around here

I never understood why some people think we need to be "camed up" in the Navy.  You want to look like a sailor ?  I point you too Colin P's post.

May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies do as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating.  The only uniform that is instantly recognized as Navy is the whites, (thank you Top Gun).  Even DEU's look like civi pilot uniforms.  If they brought back square rig that would surely help for NCM's.  Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT

Edited for spelling and grammar...

 

[dimsum]

May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies Due as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating. 

I have a bunch of friends/colleagues in the RAN and they rant that even in their uniform, they don't get recognized as sailors despite having the Naval ensign, trade badge, rank badge, ship's badge (not crest) and RAN badge on it.  The RAAF did a switch to blue "camouflage" for branding purposes as well, but I'd say most members of the public would only know that they're "not Army".

Of course, then there are the old jokes about the new USN uniform and whether they're supposed to be camouflaged against the sea, or just purposely trying to lose people during Man Overboard, etc.

 

[Privateer]

May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern.

Consider the procurement gong show in the US military driven by the desire of each branch to have its own unique cam pattern.  Blueberry cam (a la USN) is useless operationally, unless you are doing battle in a Pop Tart factory.  If RCN pers are working in an environment where they need actual camouflage (and not just a working dress that can be satisfied by overalls) then they should use the CF issued CADPAT.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT

Could always be worse  >

 

[jollyjacktar]

Consider the procurement gong show in the US military driven by the desire of each branch to have its own unique cam pattern.  Blueberry cam (a la USN) is useless operationally, unless you are doing battle in a Pop Tart factory.  If RCN pers are working in an environment where they need actual camouflage (and not just a working dress that can be satisfied by overalls) then they should use the CF issued CADPAT.

:goodpost:

 

[quadrapiper]

Suspect part of the branding issue might be the fluidity of RCN Mk. 1-MARCOM(green)-MARCOM(DEU)-RCN Mk. 2; the general public might have a dim notion of what a "sailor" looks like, but it's likely RCN Mk. 1 or USN-esque, this being compounded by geography and years of semi-invisibility on the part of the CF. Have been asked, in NCDs without the jacket, if I'm a police officer, and in DEU (pre-curl, though I doubt it makes a difference) if I'm a fireman.

From a PR perspective, ops in Afghanistan haven't helped either.

 

[FSTO]

From what I gather, what is proposed to go is the # 3 Service Dress order.  Office and shipboard dress will be NCD, unless you're required to be wearing DEU.  But as I say, it's all scuttlebutt at the moment.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!
I absolutely hate the idea of NCD for regular wear ashore. JFC it is for use when you are at sea doing the business. We do not go to action stations, fight fires , or board ships when we are in the office environment. This is an absolutely stupid idea.

 

[jollyjacktar]

LOL, I don't imagine this idea will gain any traction.  There are too many Officer types out there such as yourself FSTO who abhor the thought.  Still, it's fun to see your heads spinning ala Regan from the Exorcist. 

As I said earlier though, I will have the option in Ottawa and I will go, NCD.

 

[q_1966]

I think camouflage on a naval uniform looks rather silly.

 

[George Wallace]

I think camouflage on a naval uniform looks rather silly.

Would you prefer Prison Orange (Safety reasons for Man Overboard and all)?

 

[cupper]

But we all know that the purpose of camouflage is to not be seen.

See how well it works?

 

[FSTO]

LOL, I don't imagine this idea will gain any traction.  There are too many Officer types out there such as yourself FSTO who abhor the thought.  Still, it's fun to see your heads spinning ala Regan from the Exorcist. 

As I said earlier though, I will have the option in Ottawa and I will go, NCD.

Actually I'm afraid there are too few officers who abhor the thought of NCDs as office wear. Too many young officers today seem to be the type who would be comfortable walking downtown in their pajamas. Slobs are the lot of them I say.

 

[Navy_Pete]

May I direct you to the USN and RAN for current navy examples that wear a camo pattern. I'm sure some SW Asian Navies do as well (Singapore??).  As someone who has and still does interact with the public regularly in a Navy uniform far away from the coast not even being recognized as being in the military is extremely frustrating.  The only uniform that is instantly recognized as Navy is the whites, (thank you Top Gun).  Even DEU's look like civi pilot uniforms.  If they brought back square rig that would surely help for NCM's.  Its about brand recognition and right now the RCN brand is overly expensive not working subs.  The public doesn't even recognize their sailors in uniform. /RANT

Edited for spelling and grammar...

To be fair, a lot of Canadians don't know we have a Navy.  Recently checked CGCS to get the right NSN for the clothing stores in Ottawa; I think the list price for NCDs is closer to $600 for the pants, shirt and jacket; I think it's criminal that anyone riding a desk is wearing those, particularily when there always seemed to be a shortage of common sizes everytime I went to clothing stores in Halifax.  Also, the NCDs fit like a burlap sack with room for two around the waist, and while comfortable, look sloppy.  S&Ps look pretty sharp, are reasonably comfortable, and anytime you deal with civilians, you look professional.  And probably cost about $25 for the shirt and pants.  Seems like a no brainer to me.

At the end of the day, if someone can't tell you are in the Navy when you have a great big shiny anchor in the middle of your hat badge and Canada on your shoulder, I don't think NCDs will make a difference.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Actually I'm afraid there are too few officers who abhor the thought of NCDs as office wear. Too many young officers today seem to be the type who would be comfortable walking downtown in their pajamas. Slobs are the lot of them I say.

NCD don't have to be sloppy.  If they're clean, pressed and the boots polished properly they can look professional enough.  It's not a fashion show.  I have seen many as well who are not presentable in S&P.

 

[FSTO]

NCD don't have to be sloppy.  If they're clean, pressed and the boots polished properly they can look professional enough.  It's not a fashion show.  I have seen many as well who are not presentable in S&P.

Certain folks can look like a bag of crap in an Armani suit I agree. But as pointed out above, cost alone should preclude NCD's for use in shore billets. If I had my way, NCD's would be worn only by personnel who are drawing sea pay.
For a site that constantly decries the wasteful spending of limited defence funds, you would think that the unnecessary wearing of expensive kit in offices would draw howls of rage from the anti buttons and bows crowd.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think it depends on your build; I'm tall and lanky, so the 46" wide shirt going straight down looks awful jammed into my 32" waist, and the various pleats, folds etc to try and get it tapered never last more then a few minutes of walking around.  At least with the various DEUs I can get the shirts tailored.  The new shirts are better though, but still a lot of room for additional 'command presence'.

They are a great uniform for ship board use though; the fire protection really works well and will make a massive difference if you get stuck in a bad spot and need to evacuate through a fire.  There is videos of the testing they did on old used pairs that had gone through significant washes, exposure to POLs etc and was still pretty effective at resisting direct flame for limited periods, which is what it's supposed to do.

They are pretty expensive though; I'd prefer they be limited to ships and other limited units like the DC school where they are required, so you don't have sailors exiled to CubeLand running them through unecessary wear and tear rather then personnel on ships, as we know they won't actually increase any budget to buy more  NCDs if someone changes their unit dress policy on a whim. 

 

[donaldk]

FSTO, I am one of those naughty officers that prefers NCDs despite being posted ashore at an office.  Often I have to go into Irving (which is a mess), some ship getting the MHP mods, and in quick fire meet with a contractor's senior management in Dartmouth - which involves a visit on the shop floor (rendering most times N3's unsafe as per their regs).  The time in my office suite is minimal juggling emails, putting out fire ensuring the warehouses are happily humming for FELEX, and setting up meetings/VTCs.  I have done the change parade thing between the two and it eats up a considerable amount of time on some days.

Now if I was posted as an Admiral's flag officer... well I would certainly be at the proper order of dress for the situation without question, and burning through my Logistik points like mad  > .

If the navy does away with N3s, they certainly need to up the quality on the N5s, I still have problems with buttons randomly falling off, hems coming undone, and collars fraying with the latest rev of NCDs under gentle usage (when I was a stoker I blew through so many NCD sets with harsher working conditions).  The only issues I have with my N3s is they yellow in no time at the collar, fit like a mumu, and are a PITA to keep white (sure I can bleach them every wash, which will wear them out much faster).  The keeping white problem is why I only have my DEU heavy jacket in a custom size, otherwise I would be non-stop at the tailors getting replacements.

To end off with the crowd, thanks for the rumor mill smoke but until it hits the dress committee's minutes or an order is out - it is rumor.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I am going to fully support FTSO here.

We must bear in mind that  Navies, unlike the Army or Air Force, have a diplomatic role to play in peace time and in their actual daily work. As a result of the fact that we constantly meet and work around other nations on the neutral ground that is the sea, and the fact that  we meet one another, host one another and "represent" our own countries in the eye of foreign nations on a continual basis, ALL nations have developed a code of conduct and of image projection in the world. And that image does not include the shore based personnel looking like a bunch of mechanics going to work (my apologies to the Mar Eng's of this world). I ask you to look at pictures of the shore based naval personal of any nation and I guarantee you will see that in 99.99% of there cases, they re working and appearing in the equivalent of our DEU's - not in their shipboard rig, regardless of how tacky that shipboard dress' camouflage look is (for the USN ).

And I fully agree that Navies don't need camouflage pattern clothing.

Also, just a question here, when did OOD become part of the Damage control rapid response ????? If the OOD is getting down and dirty fighting the fire or flood, he/she is not doing his/her job of thinking the problem through and being the overall coordinator.

 

[quadrapiper]

The incredible cost of NCDs and CADPAT, and the multiplicity of working environments that're too dirty or active for No. 1, too "business" for coveralls, and too threat-free for NCD or CADPAT, suggest a need for a pan-CF working uniform.

Sturdy pants, perhaps with cargo pockets; a sturdy shirt; and a coat on the jean jacket/CANEX jacket/old corduroy-collared coat spectrum. Allow mix and match with No. 1 and 5 footwear, more serious outerwear, accoutrements, and headdress as the situation requires/command dictates/the member chooses. Make the pants and coat out of whatever cotton blend Carharrt uses, and the shirt out of something comfortable and hard-wearing. Either dye it per element (per practice with battledress) or go with tan/khaki; both the CA and RCN have used that colour in the past; not sure about the RCAF - quite sure the RAF did, though.

Issue it to everyone that doesn't actually need combat-ready or aircrew kit.