Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[brihard]

This is long, and awful. Firsthand accounts from residents who took shelter during the Hamas attack on the Be’eri Kibbutz. It’s a tough read, but everyone should try to give it the ten minutes if you can.

Hamas attack on Israel kibbutz Be’eri captured by mothers’ WhatsApp group

Messages reveal how trapped families called for help and shared words of comfort as militants killed 100 in their kibbutz.

www.bbc.com

 

[GR66]

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Yep, I reckon the locals would be much better off under Aztec rule.

https://www.science.org/content/article/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

You'll note that all the references are strictly focused on Western European examples:

Fuelled by specific ideologies, including white supremacy, Christianity, capitalism and imperialism

Decolonizing requires the critique of Euro-Western worldviews, including white supremacy, heteropatriarchy, ableism, xeno-phobia, imperialism and capitalism

You couldn't ask for a better Russian/Chinese IW campaign to try to sabotage the West.

But at least the non-humans will be saved!

Decolonization refers to the social and political movement for Indigenous self-determination, and the liberation of all humans and non-humans from the oppression of colonial systems, institutions, logic and practice.

 

[TacticalTea]

EU envoy paraglides off Gaza to show freedom 'is the way forward'

The outgoing European Union envoy has paraglided off Gaza's coast in a rare flight designed to draw attention to the blockaded Palestinian enclave.

www.reuters.com

Well this is odd.

Occurred in July. Did this inspire Hamas' "way forward"?

 

[Furniture]

Hamas is more than willing to kill argumentative Palestinians who disrupt them as Israelis.

I realize I'm a bit late to the party after work, but I'll respond anyway.

That is the price of allowing an apocalyptic death cult to take over your region/"nation". If the Palestinians want to live free, prosperous, and happy lives, they need to clean their own house. If they refuse to die fighting to end the reign of Hamas, they can die as Israel fixes the problem for them.

It's no different that the deaths of Europeans as the Allies drove the Germans back, and crushed their ability to inflict their shit on Europe.

I support Israel, but not to the point that I ignore excesses.

I strongly suspect one's idea of "excessive" is directly linked to how many kms one lives from rapist thugs that belong to an apocalyptic death cult. If you had tens of thousands of rapists and thugs waiting just down the road for a chance to kidnap, rape, and torture your loved ones, I strongly suspect you'd have a very different view of what is "excessive".

You are applying lessons and tactics of the GWOT to a completely different fight. Israel doesn't have the luxury of fighting the bad guys a couple of thousands kms, and a few continents/oceans away. They have a genocidal enemy literally right over the fence from them, so anything short of completely destroying Hamas' ability to fight, is a loss. Losing more troops in messy urban fighting, in a densely populated city, is a loss.

There is no clean "hearts and minds" victory that can be achieved for Israel, their only victory is destroying Hamas, and sending a message to other areas that messing with Israel is death.

As for comparisons to Russia, lets bear in mind that Russia is the genocidal aggressor in the fight against Ukraine. Israel is the aggrieved defender fighting a genocidal aggressor. There is no comparison to Russia, if you want a comparison, Israel is the Allies from WWII. They didn't want the fight, but they are going to ensure they win it.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

EU envoy paraglides off Gaza to show freedom 'is the way forward'

The outgoing European Union envoy has paraglided off Gaza's coast in a rare flight designed to draw attention to the blockaded Palestinian enclave.

www.reuters.com

Well this is odd.

Occurred in July. Did this inspire Hamas' "way forward"?

Typical of Palestinians to take something peacefully and weaponize it

 

[KevinB]

I realize I'm a bit late to the party after work, but I'll respond anyway.

That is the price of allowing an apocalyptic death cult to take over your region/"nation". If the Palestinians want to live free, prosperous, and happy lives, they need to clean their own house. If they refuse to die fighting to end the reign of Hamas, they can die as Israel fixes the problem for them.

Given they can have weapons (unless they are in Hamas, the PLO or Hezbollah, etc how do you figure they can do that?

It's no different that the deaths of Europeans as the Allies drove the Germans back, and crushed their ability to inflict their shit on Europe.

Conventional wars supported by national populaces have very different engagement sets.

I strongly suspect one's idea of "excessive" is directly linked to how many kms one lives from rapist thugs that belong to an apocalyptic death cult. If you had tens of thousands of rapists and thugs waiting just down the road for a chance to kidnap, rape, and torture your loved ones, I strongly suspect you'd have a very different view of what is "excessive".

You are applying lessons and tactics of the GWOT to a completely different fight. Israel doesn't have the luxury of fighting the bad guys a couple of thousands kms, and a few continents/oceans away. They have a genocidal enemy literally right over the fence from them, so anything short of completely destroying Hamas' ability to fight, is a loss. Losing more troops in messy urban fighting, in a densely populated city, is a loss.

No I'm applying an actual Counter Insurgency outlook as well as the LOAC, plus the wisdom of years of watching cycles of violence.

There is no clean "hearts and minds" victory that can be achieved for Israel, their only victory is destroying Hamas, and sending a message to other areas that messing with Israel is death.

One can do that with a lot less civilian casualties - you are right about sending a message however.

As for comparisons to Russia, lets bear in mind that Russia is the genocidal aggressor in the fight against Ukraine. Israel is the aggrieved defender fighting a genocidal aggressor. There is no comparison to Russia, if you want a comparison, Israel is the Allies from WWII. They didn't want the fight, but they are going to ensure they win it.

Hamas makes up <2% of the Gaza population - I don't see how in good conscience anyone can accept that kicking the shit out of everyone lines up to proportionality requirements.

All this is going to do is make Israel look like the bad guy for quite some time, after the dust settles, and it won't stop the cycle of violence - as for the dead civilians they have loved ones who are going to want revenge just like Israel does for theirs...

I get they want revenge - but they should be taking it out on the actual perpetrators and their supporters (Syrian, Iran, and Russian leadership).

 

[TacticalTea]

I get they want revenge - but they should be taking it out on the actual perpetrators and their supporters (Syrian, Iran, and Russian leadership).

I appreciate the workable solution. Definitely better than "idk but be nice pls!"

That said, is escalation with Iran truly better than limiting the fight to Palestine?

In other news: FIRST READING: The Canadian taxpayer money funding and enabling Hamas

Someone remind me again why we give money to the UN?

 

[Kirkhill]

Israel targets Hamas’s labyrinth of tunnels under Gaza

Palestinian militants are thought to have built hundreds of kilometres of tunnels underneath Gaza.

www.bbc.com

 

[KevinB]

I appreciate the workable solution. Definitely better than "idk but be nice pls!"

That said, is escalation with Iran truly better than limiting the fight to Palestine?

In other news: FIRST READING: The Canadian taxpayer money funding and enabling Hamas

Someone remind me again why we give money to the UN?

Israelis are very good at assassinations...
Historically they are very deliberate and methodical in their actions.
The leaders of those entities all have millions of other enemies at home and abroad that would also wish them dead.

 

[KevinB]

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Israel targets Hamas’s labyrinth of tunnels under Gaza

Palestinian militants are thought to have built hundreds of kilometres of tunnels underneath Gaza.

www.bbc.com

Or one could just flood them you know...

Wouldn't be such a mess up top.

 

[KevinB]

sad but expected.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-768211

 

[Czech_pivo]

View attachment 80675

Israel targets Hamas’s labyrinth of tunnels under Gaza

Palestinian militants are thought to have built hundreds of kilometres of tunnels underneath Gaza.

www.bbc.com

Shame that they can't just start flooding every single tunnel with seawater, one by one.

 

[Brad Sallows]

if you want a comparison, Israel is the Allies from WWII. They didn't want the fight, but they are going to ensure they win it.

If you want a comparison, the comparison is the US after 9/11.

The US decided to take the war to Iraq, based chiefly on the risk that Iraq was trying to develop WMD and that some of the WMD might:

• be transferred to terrorists (on purpose)
• be stolen by terrorists (accidentally)
• be transferred to terrorists and made to look like they were stolen (accidentally-on-purpose)

What were the allowable boundaries of conducting that war?

And my perennial favourites: who advocated that war and prosecuted it, where are those people now, where do they stand in US politics, and who is listening to them and aligned with them?

 

[Kirkhill]

1988 Hamas charter - Hamas in its own words.

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Article One:​

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

Article Twelve:​

Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land. Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Moslem, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission.

Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:​

Article Thirteen:​

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

 

[YZT580]

Ok lets play that game.

Who is to say the any of the Jews currently in Israel were ever there originally? Its a religion not a ethnicity. Someones family could have converted in 1700 and still be Jewish.

If Islam came later but it was Jews who converted to Islam that now are in the region is it not still their lands (or ancestral lands?).

Your also assuming that all the people around Israel/Palestine were Jewish originally, which they were not. Zoroastrianism etc. was big in that region. Should the land not go back to the Greeks or Persians?

Your arguments are fairly flawed. At the end of the day we moved a large group of people into the area in the late 40s who proceeded to evict the people actually living in the area based off some questionable land claim from 2000 years ago. Sounds pretty stupid when it gets phrased like that.

Should you be evicted from your home because someone who claims to be part of the tribe that once owned that part of Canada demands it?

wasn't that what happened in Caledonia?

Great, just great

Given they can have weapons (unless they are in Hamas, the PLO or Hezbollah, etc how do you figure they can do that?


Conventional wars supported by national populaces have very different engagement sets.


No I'm applying an actual Counter Insurgency outlook as well as the LOAC, plus the wisdom of years of watching cycles of violence.


One can do that with a lot less civilian casualties - you are right about sending a message however.


Hamas makes up <2% of the Gaza population - I don't see how in good conscience anyone can accept that kicking the shit out of everyone lines up to proportionality requirements.

All this is going to do is make Israel look like the bad guy for quite some time, after the dust settles, and it won't stop the cycle of violence - as for the dead civilians they have loved ones who are going to want revenge just like Israel does for theirs...

I get they want revenge - but they should be taking it out on the actual perpetrators and their supporters (Syrian, Iran, and Russian leadership).

revenge maybe but perhaps just arriving at some degree of peace would be totally satisfactory. The idea of living every day with one ear tuned for the sirens and watching the iron dome spit out its rounds really doesn't appeal very much. The Jews can be very obnoxious but they deserve the chance to live at peace and all the talks in the last 50 years haven't given them any of that so perhaps they have decided to make their motto From the river to the sea one land

 

[PteNobody]

I dont know how relevant any of this will be but maybe itll put all of these recent attacks into perspective for everyone here. Isreal has been invaded and attacked and occupied by every major for foreign force in the entire world since its conception. Even by the Mongols in 13th century. Now that being said i dont condone whats going on by saudi funded Hamas terrorists. But maybe all of us common folk need to understand whats really going on here. And that isreal has been a country at war for well over 200 years now.
History of Israel - Wikipedia

 

[Blackadder1916]

Just a reminder that Canadians rest "peaceably" in Gaza. A few from the First World War, but most of the 28 interred here did not come home from UNEF in the 1950s and 60s.

Gaza

www.google.com

Gaza War Cemetery | Cemetery Details | CWGC

Gaza War Cemetery | Cemetery Details | CWGC

www.cwgc.org

 

[Kirkhill]

Typical of Palestinians to take something peacefully and weaponize it

You mean unlike the Ukrainians weaponizing drones?

Sex and violence. The first two things that occur to the human mind.

 

[lenaitch]

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Yep, I reckon the locals would be much better off under Aztec rule.

https://www.science.org/content/article/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

York University. Doesn't surprise me one little bit.

 

[FJAG]

No I'm applying an actual Counter Insurgency outlook as well as the LOAC, plus the wisdom of years of watching cycles of violence.

You need to go more into the LOAC concept of "reprisal"

A reprisal is an enforcement measure under the law of armed conflict consisting of an act which would otherwise be unlawful but which is justified as a response to the unlawful acts of an enemy.

The issue of how far one can go with reprisals is still heavily debated. There will undoubtedly be arguments as to whether Israel is going too far or not. I doubt if any of us right now have a true understanding as to whether Israel is targeting purely valid targets with collateral casualties happening because of the penchant of Hamas to hide its facilities within populated areas or because of indiscriminate targeting.

Similarly, Israel has given the Gaza population warnings of upcoming military operations which meet LOAC requirements. Whether or not those are inadequate will be up to debate with the usual talking heads. Personally, I think very little of the UN's position on the matter these days. Their position on the Palestinian issue is far from unbiased.

There's a point where a country has to draw a line in the sand. That point has been reached.