Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Eaglelord17]

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I think there is insufficient attention being paid to one factor: one sovereign state, a UN member, , has launched a direct attack on another sovereign state, . That is, it seems to me an open and open ended declaration of war.

Ayatollah Khamenei is not hiding behind Hezbollah or Hamas; he, the head of the sovereign state of Iran, has declared war on Israel and pledges to destroy it.

Israel, it seems to me, is 100% justified in doing whatever it deems necessary, up to and including the use of nuclear weapons, to fight back.

Israel has also directly attacked a sovereign state as well, as Lebanon is a sovereign state. That is also a direct open ended declaration of war. Israel also bombed Irans embassy in Syria, which is also a direct open ended declaration of war.

Nukes are never justified. We cannot allow them to be. If we do Ukraine would be a glowing ruin.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Proportional…so, launch several hundred ballistic missiles at Tehran? Blair and Joly are an embarrassment…fence sitting while using just enough wording to pretend that Canada has a spine.

Canadians have a spine its just hidden under layers of fat.

 

[KevinB]

Israel has also directly attacked a sovereign state as well, as Lebanon is a sovereign state.

And why was that? Hint because Lebanon was being used by Hezbollah as a staging area to conduct attacks.

That is also a direct open ended declaration of war. Israel also bombed Irans embassy in Syria, which is also a direct open ended declaration of war.

Iran has been in a state of war with the West since 1979, they have supported direct and indirect attacks against Israel and Western nations that have provided more than enough justification to leave them a smoking crater.

Nukes are never justified. We cannot allow them to be. If we do Ukraine would be a glowing ruin.

Nuclear weapons are justifiable as a lesser evil. Israel would be vaporized if Iran got a bomb, so Israel has the right to use any weapon up to and including nuclear devices to safeguard their security.

Ukraine is a different story, as they would be the country that was justified using nuclear weapons against Russia not the other way.

 

[Good2Golf]

Israel has also directly attacked a sovereign state Hezbollah as well

You mis-spelled Hezbollah

 

[brihard]

Israel has also directly attacked a sovereign state as well, as Lebanon is a sovereign state.

This is only sort of true. Lebanon does not actually exercise meaningful sovereignty over its southern end; they don’t effectively assert exclusive military use of that territory, nor can they prevent the unlawful military use of that territory from presenting a real and ongoing security threat to Israel.

Israel hasn’t really attacked the sovereign .
state of Lebanon; had that state sovereignty over the portions of land Israel has invaded, the conditions necessitating and justifying that invasion would not exist. State sovereignty is much more than just lines on a map. There’s an onus on the state asserting that sovereignty to prevent non-state actors from effectively controlling that land and using it to launch military hostilities into a neighbouring state.

I am at times quite critical of how Israel carries out some military actions, but they do have a right to exist, part and parcel of which is the right to defend their land and people from attack. Lebanon has had years and years to sort itself out and has not. UNIFIL has had years to stop Hezbollah from using that land to launch attacks and has not. Israel hasn’t been patient and has invaded that territory as a last resort against an enemy that actively attacks them and refuses to recognize their right to exist.

 

[dimsum]

Proportional…so, launch several hundred ballistic missiles at Tehran? Blair and Joly are an embarrassment…fence sitting while using just enough wording to pretend that Canada has a spine.

What’s the US official response on this? I admit that I haven’t been following it as closely as I should.

If this wording matches theirs, I can understand. But it sounds like it’s carefully crafted not to exceed someone else (whoever it could be, but I’m assuming the US).

If US says something and Canada says something further, I would think that it seems weird and like an overly aggressive small dog - the rest of the world would be like “oh yeah? With what army?”

 

[Haggis]

Canadians have a spine its just hidden under layers of fat.

Canada's spine was removed when Trudeau declared that we would not "whip out our CF-18's" against ISIS. The Middle East knows that.

 

[Good2Golf]

What’s the US official response on this? I admit that I haven’t been following it as closely as I should.

From SECDEF:

Statement by Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III on Iran's Missile Strikes Against Is

Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III issued a statement of support of Israel and condemned the act of aggression by Iran.

www.defense.gov

Today, U.S. forces in the Middle East intercepted multiple missiles launched by Iran toward Israel, as we fulfilled our commitment to partner with Israel in its defense. We condemn this outrageous act of aggression by Iran, and we call on Iran to halt any further attacks, including from its proxy terrorist groups. We will never hesitate to protect our forces and interests in the Middle East, and to support the defense of Israel and our partners in the region.

I am deeply proud of the skill and the bravery of the U.S. troops who helped to save lives today from Iran's assault and who continue to support Israel's defense and to prevent a widening conflict or escalation. Our forces remain postured to protect U.S. troops and partners in the Middle East, and the Department maintains significant capability to defend our people, provide further support for Israel's self-defense, and deter further escalation. I will continue to monitor the situation closely and to consult with our allies and partners.

There is no hanging conditionality on DoD’s part to shame or restrict Israel…only note of support towards deescalation, prioritized behind Israel’s right to self-defense.

 

[Rifleman62]

There are now more Muslims in Canada than Jews. That's why the Liberal statement is what it is.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Proportional…so, launch several hundred ballistic missiles at Tehran?

Yup. That seems proportional and reasonable to me.

It's always funny watching our officials like Blair and Joly chime in like they're relevant. As a country we have an over developed sense of our own importance.

 

[dimsum]

Yup. That seems proportional and reasonable to me.

It's always funny watching our officials like Blair and Joly chime in like they're relevant. As a country we have an over developed sense of our own importance.

OTOH, if Canada didn’t say anything then there would be calls that “one of the founding NATO countries remains silent on this conflict”.

Kind of a shitty rock-vs-hard place situation.

 

[Good2Golf]

OTOH, if Canada didn’t say anything then there would be calls that “one of the founding NATO countries remains silent on this conflict”.

Kind of a shitty rock-vs-hard place situation.

Canada doesn’t/shouldn’t not say anything, but the words of both Joly and Blair were not those of a nation taking a principled stand, but rather a tentative one meant that came across more as one who likes hearing there own voice than saying something of value.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Israel has also directly attacked a sovereign state as well, as Lebanon is a sovereign state. That is also a direct open ended declaration of war. Israel also bombed Irans embassy in Syria, which is also a direct open ended declaration of war.

Nukes are never justified. We cannot allow them to be. If we do Ukraine would be a glowing ruin.

Lebanon has been held hostage by Syria and Hezbollah and has not really been a "sovereign state" for a long time. More like the abused spouse of Hezbollah. Since Oct 8th of last year, over 9,000 rockets have been fired at Israel from Lebanese territory. I would say that Hezbollah declared war then.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What’s the US official response on this? I admit that I haven’t been following it as closely as I should.

"We the US are determined to dither and do just enough to annoy everyone including our allies, but not enough that armed groups would find it painful to attack us and our allies."

 

[dimsum]

Canada doesn’t/shouldn’t not say anything, but the words of both Joly and Blair were not those of a nation taking a principled stand, but rather a tentative one meant that came across more as one who likes hearing there own voice than saying something of value.

Fair, but given our…uh…realpolitik strength, I’m not sure what they could say that wouldn’t sound tentative.

We’re not exactly going to be sending a carrier strike group over.

 

[Good2Golf]

"We the US are determined to dither and do just enough to annoy everyone including our allies, but not enough that armed groups would find it painful to attack us and our allies."

Colin, I believe you misspelled Canada.

USA was busy putting its money where its mouth was as an ally of Israel and spending a few greenbacks on launching ‘more than a few’ SM-3 ABM missiles from a number of USN DDGs in the Eastern Med.

 

[dimsum]

Colin, I believe you misspelled Canada.

USA was busy putting its money where its mouth was as an ally of Israel and spending a few greenbacks on launching ‘more than a few’ SM-3 ABM missiles from a number of USN DDGs in the Eastern Med.

I would also suggest that since some of those Iranian missiles were targeting Tel Aviv, those SM-3s were also protecting the US Embassy.

 

[Jarnhamar]

OTOH, if Canada didn’t say anything then there would be calls that “one of the founding NATO countries remains silent on this conflict”.

Kind of a shitty rock-vs-hard place situation.

Who would say that though?

 

[Good2Golf]

I would also suggest that since some of those Iranian missiles were targeting Tel Aviv, those SM-3s were also protecting the US Embassy.

Mmmm, nope…the US Embassy is in Jerusalem, 300m from the West Bank territory. No IRA missiles anywhere near there. Just protecting the Israeli people…no selfish motivation, at least at the tactical level. A heck of a lot more for Israel than an open offer to convene something…

 

[FJAG]

OTOH, if Canada didn’t say anything then there would be calls that “one of the founding NATO countries remains silent on this conflict”.

Official announcements are parsed in detail by the intended recipient as well as all our allies. Some messages are worse than staying silednt. IMHO this was one of a long string of such messages coming out of the current Canadian government. OTOH, I'm not hearing anything positive coming out of the mouths of the official opposition either.

Kind of a shitty rock-vs-hard place situation.

It actually isn't. The situation is brilliantly clear. Canada is suffering from a self-inflicted wound in trying to suck and blow at the same time. Is it that hard to say that "we stand in solidarity with those Muslim nations that want peace with Israel and we denounce those nations and groups who commit or support terrorist acts."

To say that Israel should only "respond in a calibrated and proportional way" and to call for a ceasefire when Iran and its lackeys only want time to be better prepared to destroy Israel is naïve and mealy-mouthed.