Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Colin Parkinson]

Sorry, what? Yeah, obviously Saddam was horrendous. That’s completely irrelevant to abuses of prisoners by other countries that hold themselves to a higher standard. What happened in Abu Ghraib under American control was awful, independent of any other comparator. It sounds like other awful stuff may have been happening at this Israeli facility, and the Israeli military still has a lot of ethical professionals who aren’t OK with that. Sounds like the Israelis may have had a problem that’s now blowing up in their face. This is not a distraction they need, nor do they need the discipline and professionalism of their troops called into question.

Abu Ghraib was brought up. What happened there under the Americans is nothing compared to the horrific horrors a generation of victims suffered.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If I recall there are ultra-orthodox battalions.

Netzah Yehuda Battalion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Brad Sallows]

Not sure concentrating people in units where their own values can more easily supercede military values is the way to go.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Netzah Yehuda Battalion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So reading that, they have committed this exact same crime previously against a Palestinian detainee.


“In 2021, Israeli Military Police arrested four soldiers from the battalion on suspicion of beating and sexually assaulting a Palestinian suspect, after a military doctor examined him as part of the arrest procedure and found signs of violence on his body, leading to the investigation. The Palestinian detainee was held by troops in the back of a military vehicle after his arrest in the West Bank, and was allegedly beaten en-route to an army base”


And in a separate set of incidents:

“According to a report in Ynet, the judges noted the violence against the Palestinian prisoners did not occur out of anger, but “was violence for its own sake.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldier-gets-9-months-for-torturing-palestinian-detainee/

There’s a serious leadership fail in the IDF.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Sorry, what? Yeah, obviously Saddam was horrendous. That’s completely irrelevant to abuses of prisoners by other countries that hold themselves to a higher standard. What happened in Abu Ghraib under American control was awful, independent of any other comparator. It sounds like other awful stuff may have been happening at this Israeli facility, and the Israeli military still has a lot of ethical professionals who aren’t OK with that. Sounds like the Israelis may have had a problem that’s now blowing up in their face. This is not a distraction they need, nor do they need the discipline and professionalism of their troops called into question.

Agreed, 100%!

We, the liberal-democratic West, very rightfully, hold Israel to a different and much, much higher standard than the one to which we held Saddam Hussein and to which we held or currently hold ANY mom-Western national government or group, like Hamas or Hezbollah.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yeah, hard to keep the moral high ground after that.

The question will be how the rest of Israeli society reacts to this.

Shit happens in war.

We did it wholescale and managed to maintain the moral high ground.

Allied war crimes during World War II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israel will ensure justice is carried out.

Big meah from me.

 

[brihard]

Shit happens in war.

We did it wholescale and managed to maintain the moral high ground.

Allied war crimes during World War II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israel will ensure justice is carried out.

Big meah from me.

Shit that happens in the heat of or immediately proximate to battle is extremely different from shit happening in the extremely regimented and controlled setting of a prison facility way back behind the lines, where everyone is in your custody and care. Abuse of prisoners is cowardly and ill-disciplined.

 

[Remius]

Shit happens in war.

We did it wholescale and managed to maintain the moral high ground.

Allied war crimes during World War II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israel will ensure justice is carried out.

Big meah from me.

I wouldn’t be so dismissive. That sort of thing has led to a whole pile of issues down the road.

Our actions in Somalia contributed to a long running hatred and distrust of our military from our own people for a number of years. I would argue we are still feeling those effects to this day.

Australia is going through that with what their SAS is accused of in Afghanistan.

I suspect Israel may not quite be affected internally but this sort of thing only amplifies anti Israel sentiment and lowers world support for their cause.

It only takes one incident from a small group of people to wreck reputations and image of the whole for years if not decades.

 

[brihard]

BBC has a story up now and it’s basically just as bad as what has been said in this thread. A Palestinian was hospitalized after being sexually tortured in Israeli military custody. When military police arrived to detain the soldiers, other soldiers tried to fight them off including with pepper spray. Later, a mob broke in to an Israeli base where they were being held. The mod include and was supported by an Israeli far right party that has enough seats in the Knesset to collapse the coalition government they’re a part of. Separately, from other accounts I’ve seen, this unrest has distracted from and delayed Israel’s response to Hezbollah.

Our torture scandal cost us a regiment… Theirs could collapse or at least seriously distract and disrupt a government in the midst of a military crisis.

 

[dimsum]

Shit happens in war.

We did it wholescale and managed to maintain the moral high ground.

Allied war crimes during World War II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes - because the Allies won. Imagine if we didn’t.

Torture of prisoners is against the Geneva convention and should not be tolerated in this day and age. I don’t think “it’s ok because we did it in WWII” is the justification you assert that it is.

Israel will ensure justice is carried out.

Big meah from me.

As others have said, it might internally but it’s standing in the global sphere will be tainted by this. Not to mention the effects on its government.

 

[Halifax Tar]

War makes people do crazy things, that's not dismissive; its been a fact since time immemorial. Abuse of PWs is not new, nor is it something Israel invented.

CBC Front page:

https://www.cbc.ca/news

No mention of it, as of 1545hrs in the Agean sea. In fact when I "CTRL F" Israel this comes up:



Israel will or has dealt with it.

I'm not really sure this is going to have the impact some think it will.

Again a big meah from me.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yes - because the Allies won. Imagine if we didn’t.

Torture of prisoners is against the Geneva convention and should not be tolerated in this day and age. I don’t think “it’s ok because we did it in WWII” is the justification you assert that it is.

I never once gave it as a justification. Its just an example that even when soldiers do bad things you can maintain the moral high ground as a whole.

Hence the whole part about Israel carrying out justice. You can roll back the pearl clutching.

As others have said, it might internally but it’s standing in the global sphere will be tainted by this. Not to mention the effects on its government.

I feel like that may be more of an outcome you desire than what will actually happen. There is lots of other news out there and less people are paying attention anymore. Olympic fever my boy!

This whole conflict started with war crimes on Oct 7th. Meah, its par for the course. Im willing to let the IDF internal security and investigations deal with if. I predict this fades pretty fast.

But who knows ? Maybe this will grind the IDF to a halt.

 

[dimsum]

I never once gave it as a justification. Its just an example that even when soldiers do bad things you can maintain the moral high ground as a whole.

Hence the whole part about Israel carrying out justice. You can roll back the pearl clutching.

I’m not pearl clutching. I’m looking at the Abu Ghraib example and how that contributed to the change in domestic and global view of the US invasion of Iraq. It went from “US liberators” to “why are we in this war” pretty quickly after 2004.

I feel like that may be more of an outcome you desire than what will actually happen. There is lots of other news out there and less people are paying attention anymore. Olympic fever my boy!

This whole conflict started with war crimes on Oct 7th. Meah, its par for the course. Im willing to let the IDF internal security and investigations deal with if. I predict this fades pretty fast.

But who knows ? Maybe this will grind the IDF to a halt.

No, I don’t desire the Israeli govt fracturing (more than it already is) and the IDF grinding to a halt. The Israeli govt is already a tenuous coalition govt, and this will be a wedge issue driving the far-right factions away from the rest of the Knesset.

I have confidence that the IDF internal security will deal with it, but the damage is done. At best, the adversaries and skeptics will say “they investigated themselves and found nothing wrong”, like the criticisms towards police forces in North America. Hell, the US investigated Abu Ghraib and we’re still talking about it 20 years later.

At worst, this becomes a big narrative point for Hamas, etc that the Israelis are publicly torturing Muslims. The Arab nations may not like each other, but at least some of them hate Israel more than each other. I’m not going to say that it might be something that will unite them and try to invade a third time, but stranger things have happened.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I’m not pearl clutching. I’m looking at the Abu Ghraib example and how that contributed to the change in domestic and global view of the US invasion of Iraq. It went from “US liberators” to “why are we in this war” pretty quickly after 2004.

No, I don’t desire the Israeli govt fracturing (more than it already is) and the IDF grinding to a halt. The Israeli govt is already a tenuous coalition govt, and this will be a wedge issue driving the far-right factions away from the rest of the Knesset.

I have confidence that the IDF internal security will deal with it, but the damage is done. At best, the adversaries and skeptics will say “they investigated themselves and found nothing wrong”, like the criticisms towards police forces in North America. Hell, the US investigated Abu Ghraib and we’re still talking about it 20 years later.

At worst, this becomes a big narrative point for Hamas, etc that the Israelis are publicly torturing Muslims. The Arab nations may not like each other, but at least some of them hate Israel more than each other. I’m not going to say that it might be something that will unite them and try to invade a third time, but stranger things have happened.

Have a great day! Its almost supper time.

 

[Quirky]

People love to argue for the sake of arguing. Over nothing.

 

[Remius]

People love to argue for the sake of arguing. Over nothing.

Your position is that this is nothing?

 

[QV]

Israel is the greater good and must win this. These instances of crime need to and are being dealt with, hopefully harshly, to deter any future acts.

If anyone is really shocked there are isolated instances of atrocity by the "good guys" in a war, you fail to understand humans. The Israeli people are not cheering this on wholesale like Palestinians did on Oct 7th. Israel has been criticized from the beginning for it's "heavy handed response".

Horrific things happen in war - so avoid war at all costs. The handwringing can stop now.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Israel is the only State in the region where the citizens hold the government to task over how they treat their enemies. A concept quite foreign to every other State there. They will deal with this, but right now are facing to many external threats to spend to much time on it. Prior to Oct 7th, it would have had a huge impact, but now public opinion in Israel has harden quite a bit.

 

[markppcli]

Shit happens in war.

We did it wholescale and managed to maintain the moral high ground.

Allied war crimes during World War II - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israel will ensure justice is carried out.

Big meah from me.

Pretty quick to dismiss the rape and torture of some on held in custody. Frankly this can and will be a major talking point in the region, will be used as evidence to drive more pro Israeli regional powers, and will be a fundraising boon for Hamas

I guarded Taliban prisoners in a detainee facility in 2011. I have friends that were killed by the Taliban. Somehow I managed not to rape and torture them. It’s very simple, you just don’t do that.

 

[Brad Sallows]

These kinds of violations are analogous (hugely different morally) to violations of laws governing commercial activity. Armed forces and businesses have to deliver initial and continuing education and effective enforcement to the point of approximately zero tolerance. The reputational damage can be orders of magnitude greater than the violation; it can't just be waved away with assurances that the right thing will be done now and in future.