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Hamas invaded Israel 2023

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As to taking out terrorists on foreign soil



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To be clear I have no idea what the answers to anything are.

My own sense of everything is that everything comes down to the judgement of individuals and that no amount of rational debate will result in a solution that every individual will accept. Ultimately, in this world, you are going to have to be prepared to defend your position. And, often, impose it. Without regret or guilt.

Ok but you aren’t actually saying anything cogent here. I observed in rely to OS that Israel’s ability to materially affect the interests of quite a lot of countries is pretty limited. Which I think is fair to say. He came back with reference to extraterritorial assassinations post-Munich and din’t otherwise really make it clear just what was being said or imagined. Having been left guessing, I took a guess.

If you have ideas about how Israel can really ‘punish’ countries like Ireland or Norway or Spain I’m all ears, and outright curious. I’m just suggesting that Israel is a country with heavy ties to a few nations (and disproportionate influence within them) but very limited ones to many others, with limited ability to exert diplomatic or political consequences on them for something like recognizing a Palestinian state. That’s not me chucking shit at them; it’s just something I think is objectively true. Israel can double down with key allies, but that doesn’t solve the increasing diplomatic isolation they’re sliding into here.
 
Ok but you aren’t actually saying anything cogent here.

Accepted. I am afraid that I have reached a point where I find it difficult to cogently describe the current international situation. The world, in my view, is looking a lot less Westphalian and a lot more Hobbesian.

I observed in rely to OS that Israel’s ability to materially affect the interests of quite a lot of countries is pretty limited. Which I think is fair to say.
Agreed.

He came back with reference to extraterritorial assassinations post-Munich and din’t otherwise really make it clear just what was being said or imagined. Having been left guessing, I took a guess.
Understood. The guess does seem to be a couple of long strides away from taking out an individual on the territory of a foreign government without their permission - an act that is not uniquely Israeli, or Indian for that matter.

If you have ideas about how Israel can really ‘punish’ countries like Ireland or Norway or Spain I’m all ears, and outright curious.
I don't. Most every act of "punishment" evokes in me a sense of noses being cut off to spite faces.

Norway, Ireland and Spain are almost uniquely cushioned against punishment by anybody. Norway is one of the world's most self-sufficient economies. Ireland and Spain are well buttressed by the EU. Spain is also strategically important to the UK (Gibraltar) and the US (Rota). And Ireland, no matter how annoying the Micks are the Brits are not going to let anything of import happen to them. They bailed them out in 2008 and the Brexit and Borders nonsense continues.

I’m just suggesting that Israel is a country with heavy ties to a few nations (and disproportionate influence within them) but very limited ones to many others, with limited ability to exert diplomatic or political consequences on them for something like recognizing a Palestinian state. That’s not me chucking shit at them; it’s just something I think is objectively true. Israel can double down with key allies, but that doesn’t solve the increasing diplomatic isolation they’re sliding into here.

I think you are right on all points there. And I think your observations are true for most of the United Nations and the risks they face.

...

That is why I believe there is a rising resurgence of the Hedgehog Defence.


For the last 80 years it has been accepted that two or three nations could impose their will on the rest of the world. Now they have been found to be vulnerable to attacks at home and less than omnipotent abroad. It has also been found that home turf offers many advantages.

My sense is that the world is moving towards an era of hedgehogs, all bundled up and isolated, making themselves as immune as possible from their neighbours and pursuing their own policies on their own terms.

A supra-national power would face the opposite of the Domino Theory. Instead of being able to knock over one nation and having all the others fall in sequence each and every hedgehog would have to be both taken and either controlled or eliminated. The costs of imposition would increase drastically.

The market place is already accommodating accordingly. The rise in new suppliers of military equipment suggests that people are not only looking to create their own hedgehogs but are finding many like-minded potential customers who don't want attachments to unreliable hegemons.
 
Theres a big difference in the population of South Africa and the population of Israel and Palestine. 2/3 of Palestine/Israel is Israeli population, South Africa was 13% white before Apartheid ended. Both are oppressing the minority in the area.

When did I ever say I want anything bad to happen to the Israelis? I simply don’t want the Israelis doing bad things to others, just as I don’t want the Palestinians doing bad things to others too.

But sure make it all about anti-semitism and attempting to put words into my mouth.
Perhaps I could've worded my comment in a less fallacious manner.

Yet, you must contend with the consequences of your proposed policy.

Faced with an enemy (the Palestinian population which overwhelmingly supports Hamas and its actions) hell-bent on genociding the Jews, you suggest - unless I have misinterpreted - that Israel should not take the necessary measures to ensure the integrity of its borders and the security of its people.

The predictable consequence would be a fate at least as bad, most probably worst, as that of the whites of South Africa.

(the current population of Israel vs Palestine is largely irrelevant, adjust the framing in time and space and it changes drastically: Israel is actually just 10M regionally outnumbered by 500M Muslims, or Israeli jews have lower fertility rate than Israel-Palestine Arabs, and would quickly be outnumbered, especially in a context of a weakened security state that causes many Israelis to seek refuge elsewhere)
 
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burning the Quran, blowing up mosques, universities, neighbourhoods,

Good. Burn every book, blow up every building. Maybe with the complete destruction of that useless piece of land between Israel and egypt we can call it even for Oct7. Gaza asked for it.
 
Good. Burn every book, blow up every building. Maybe with the complete destruction of that useless piece of land between Israel and egypt we can call it even for Oct7. Gaza asked for it.
Don't forget the West Bank while at it, it's also infested with Palestinian terrorists. They can all join their kind in Jordan.
Israel needs more of these settlers in the West Bank to achieve peace.

 
Good. Burn every book, blow up every building. Maybe with the complete destruction of that useless piece of land between Israel and egypt we can call it even for Oct7. Gaza asked for it.
Ah yes the Final Solution.

Not sure that worked out well for the last nation to try that one…

I’m all for eradicating HAMAS and their supporters, where ever they may be,

But I don’t believe that killing everyone in Gaza is acceptable, or a productive solution for that.
 
Burning the Quran vs burning prisoners alive and wearing lingerie vs raping and murdering women in lingerie.

Close comparison there.
First let me post my references as I don't believe they were shared on this thread before:
Now:
  1. Assuming what you claim has happened (which is abhorrent), in your belief does that justify the collective punishment that's currently be unleashed on Gaza (ie. how does that justify the IDF burning the Quran, killing 15,000+ children, destroying Gaza's infrastructure and creating a man-made starvation?)?

  2. I'd be very wary of drinking the IDF/Israel's Kool-Aid (or Hamas' for that matter) when it comes to what happened on Oct 7 as they've been proven to be pathological liars (it's a running joke but it's true: Never ask a woman her age. Never ask a man his salary. And never ask an Israeli for evidence.)
    I'm not trying to minimize the atrocities that took place on Oct 7, but we need to remain factual as what Israel's PR has been doing since then is to invent and exaggerate the most gruesome crimes to dehumanize the Palestinians (not just Hamas) to legitimize and justify to the world the genocide that it's enacting on Gaza.
    Remember those?:
    • 40 beheaded or burned babies - FAKE (Kibutz Be'eri confirmed that only 1 baby was shot, which I believe is 1 baby too many!)
    • Slitting the stomach of a pregnant woman - FAKE
    • Dead babies hung on clotheslines - FAKE
    • Baby found in oven - FAKE
    • Hamas raping Israeli men (come on, that's a stretch!)
  3. Where is reference for the "burning prisoners alive" that you claim? I don't think I've come across it.

  4. Regarding the systematic mass rape allegations (ie. Hamas had that planned deliberately) .
    • That claim has too many holes and very little to 0 evidence (Starting with the corrupt ZAKA organization/individuals and the many fake and changing testimonies that have been said about it).
    • The bottom line is that there's no forensic evidence, no survivor testimony, and no video evidence (an AP article just came out last week documenting and exposing ZAKA's role in this, I've linked it below) .
    • Physicians for Human Right-Israel (PHRI) was the Israeli organization that produced the report on Hamas' sexual violence in November and the Israeli government, the New York Times, and others have relied heavily on this report. Just last week, PHRI issued a statement heavily walking back its report, noting it never reached any conclusions and only advocated for an investigation, and regrets the inclusion of erroneous and unreliable information. Also in their statement "Since October 7, the Israeli government and other entities have been exploiting reports of sexual violence in a manipulative and cynical manner. These reports have been utilized as part of a campaign to dehumanize Palestinians and as a propaganda tool to justify Israel’s brutal military assault on the Gaza Strip"
    • The couple of confession videos that Israel released of Palestinians admitting to rape on October 7 has been rejected by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and PHRI as they all had severe concerns that these confessions were obtained under torture.
    • I'm not denying that individual rape/sexual assaults' could've happened which is a horrible thing of its own (as it's not unheard of) but to say it's systematic without evidence to basically dehumanize the Palestinians is just an Israeli PR lie.
    • Finally, what's well documented and known is Israeli sexual violence against Palestinian hostages (they call them prisoners). You can search B'Tselem and other HR orgs for that as I'm getting tired of pulling up references.
      But here's first hand confession of Israeli soldiers who participated in the Nakba (this is not a Hamas video, but an Israeli researched produced documentary on the ethnic cleansing of a single Palestinian village called "Tantura":
 
I am going to respond to you using only quotes from William Tecumseh Sherman. For some reason, it seems appropriate.

Assuming what you claim has happened (which is abhorrent), in your belief does that justify the collective punishment that's currently be unleashed on Gaza (ie. how does that justify the IDF burning the Quran, killing 15,000+ children, destroying Gaza's infrastructure and creating a man-made starvation?)?

War is the remedy our enemies have chosen.

I'd be very wary of drinking the IDF/Israel's Kool-Aid (or Hamas' for that matter) when it comes to what happened on Oct 7 as they've been proven to be pathological liars (it's a running joke but it's true: Never ask a woman her age. Never ask a man his salary. And never ask an Israeli for evidence.)

Already we find ourselves drifting toward new issues, and are beginning to forget the strong facts of the beginning.
I'm not trying to minimize the atrocities that took place on Oct 7, but we need to remain factual as what Israel's PR has been doing since then is to invent and exaggerate the most gruesome crimes to dehumanize the Palestinians (not just Hamas) to legitimize and justify to the world the genocide that it's enacting on Gaza.
You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.
But here's first hand confession of Israeli soldiers who participated in the Nakba (this is not a Hamas video, but an Israeli researched produced documentary on the ethnic cleansing of a single Palestinian village called "Tantura":

By a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well.
First let me post my references as I don't believe they were shared on this thread before:

I think I understand what military fame is; to be killed on the field of battle and have your name misspelled in the newspapers.
 
Nice try. Fatah (the PA elected authority the West Bank) isn’t a terrorist organization.

Just for fear your computer’s Hamasabrowser doesn’t allow it, here’s a link and copy of Canada’s list of ‘accredited’ terrorist organizations. I also highlighted your friends just in case you couldn’t see them on the list right away.





Don't forget the West Bank while at it, it's also infested with Palestinian terrorists. They can all join their kind in Jordan.
Israel needs more of these settlers in the West Bank to achieve peace.

 
Now:
  1. Assuming what you claim has happened (which is abhorrent),
Let's be fair here, just because women were found naked, hands tied, clear signs of sexual trauma to their genitals, and first hand accounts from victims and witnesses, it's still a stretch to believe it. We have videos of hand grenades being thrown at kids, burnt bodies, a Palestinian trying to chop the head off a still living prisoners with a dull shovel, but rape? They're not animals.

Unless I see videos released of women being assaulted (and proof it's not a false flag attack by the IDF) for millions of internet users to pick apart ridicule and make memes of, I'm not believing it.

But just suppose it did happen, we can't forget that day is the result of and the response to almost 100 years of brutal occupation and settler colonial actions (starting with the British). So...
 
Good. Burn every book, blow up every building. Maybe with the complete destruction of that useless piece of land between Israel and egypt we can call it even for Oct7. Gaza asked for it.
The optimist in me agrees with this guy ....
RevengeNotBeLikeEnemy.jpg
The staff in me wants to remind everyone that we can do better in our discussions here than to recommend war crimes as a counter-argument. It's not a good look (to say the very least) when one side says or suggests it, so it's also not a good look when the other does, either.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
I am going to respond to you using only quotes from William Tecumseh Sherman. For some reason, it seems appropriate.



War is the remedy our enemies have chosen.



Already we find ourselves drifting toward new issues, and are beginning to forget the strong facts of the beginning.

You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.


By a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well.


I think I understand what military fame is; to be killed on the field of battle and have your name misspelled in the newspapers.

And, one of my favourites...


“Vox populi, vox Humbug.”

― William T. Sherman
 
But I don’t believe that killing everyone in Gaza is acceptable, or a productive solution for that.

Who said anything about killing everyone in Gaza. People love to make assumptions.

A two-state solution to hamas and palestinian terrorism and fix for that region is fantasy, gaza was already a de-facto state. It failed, it is a failure. Don't see how keeping 2million+ people caged inside that area forever is going to change anything (including calling it "palestine"), Israel won't be giving up territory including the WB. The IDF will be inside gaza for a long, long time and that border wall and security will only increase. The current situation in gaza is purely on the people living there.
 
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Let's be fair here, just because women were found naked, hands tied, clear signs of sexual trauma to their genitals, and first hand accounts from victims and witnesses, it's still a stretch to believe it. We have videos of hand grenades being thrown at kids, burnt bodies, a Palestinian trying to chop the head off a still living prisoners with a dull shovel, but rape? They're not animals.

Unless I see videos released of women being assaulted (and proof it's not a false flag attack by the IDF) for millions of internet users to pick apart ridicule and make memes of, I'm not believing it.

But just suppose it did happen, we can't forget that day is the result of and the response to almost 100 years of brutal occupation and settler colonial actions (starting with the British). So...
Personally I think Hamas should attack the Turks to revenge the hundreds of years of brutal occupation under the Ottomans.
 
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