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Haitian leaders must all agree before Canada would lead a potential military intervention, Trudeau says

U.S. has suggested Canada could lead a multinational force in Haiti

Dylan Robertson · The Canadian Press · Posted: Nov 20, 2022 1:27 PM ET

A potential Canadian military intervention in Haiti can't happen unless all political parties in the troubled nation agree to it, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Sunday.

Speaking from Tunisia on the final day of the two-day Francophonie summit, Trudeau announced $16.5 million to help stabilize Haiti, where gangs are strangling access to fuel and critical supplies amid a worsening cholera outbreak.

About half the money is going toward humanitarian aid, and some of the rest is intended to help weed out corruption and prosecute gender-based violence.

But Haiti's government has asked for an international military intervention to combat gangs who have strangled access to fuel and critical supplies in the middle of the outbreak.

The United States wants Canada to lead any military intervention.

Trudeau said Sunday that Canada is working with CARICOM, the organization of Caribbean governments, along with "various actors in Haiti from all different political parties" to get a consensus on how the international community can help.

"It is not enough for Haiti's government to ask for it," he said. "There needs to be a consensus across political parties in Haiti before we can move forward on more significant steps."

He did not rule out eventually establishing a Canadian military mission on the ground in Haiti.

"Canada is very open to playing an important role, but we must have a Haitian consensus," Trudeau said in French.

New sanctions on prominent former officials
A Global Affairs Canada assessment team sent to Haiti to establish some understanding of what is happening and what could help has already returned and provided a report at meetings Trudeau said he attended.

He said the response is complicated because many "political elites" and "oligarchs" in Haiti have used the country's humanitarian crises "to enrich themselves on the backs of the Haitian people."

"So that is why our approach now is not about doing what one political party or the government wants," Trudeau said. "It's calling for a level of consensus and coherence from all actors in Haiti to call for solutions that we can actually get behind and lead on as an international community."

On Saturday Canada expanded its economic sanctions freezing the Canadian assets of Haitian political elites to now include former president Michel Martelly and former prime ministers Laurent Lamothe and Jean-Henry Ceant.

Foreign Affairs Minister Melanie Joly accused the trio of helping gangs undermine Haiti's current government and called on international partners to follow Canada's lead.

"Our goal is to make sure that these people that are profiting from the violence, that are part of a corrupted system, are facing accountability," she said.

Haitian Foreign Affairs Minister Jean Victor Geneus said the new sanctions put real consequences on those causing a "nightmare" in his country.

"These sanctions will have a dissuasive impact," he said in French, while seated between Trudeau and Joly.

Geneus said gangs are raping women and girls, preventing children from attending school and not letting sick people through roadblocks when they seek medical treatment. That means refugees are leaving for neighbouring islands.

"If the necessary conditions for safety are not re-established in a fast and urgent manner, a humanitarian catastrophe is possible in Haiti," he said in French.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-haiti-intervention-sanctions-1.6658254
 
Do we think the local population is more armed or less armed than that of Somalia?
The comparison isn’t a valid one. Haiti is indeed awash with small arms (largely sourced from the US and Colombia) but currenfly lacks the heavy weapons that were characteristic of Somali warlord-led militias. Haiti is a mess, but Haitian gangs aren’t exactly Al-Shabaab. Any major foreign intervention in Haiti will meet armed opposition considerably less sophisticated than what was seen in Somalia, and for that matter, Afghanistan and Iraq. But there will be still be armed opposition.
 
The comparison isn’t a valid one. Haiti is indeed awash with small arms (largely sourced from the US and Colombia) but currenfly lacks the heavy weapons that were characteristic of Somali warlord-led militias. Haiti is a mess, but Haitian gangs aren’t exactly Al-Shabaab. Any major foreign intervention in Haiti will meet armed opposition considerably less sophisticated than what was seen in Somalia, and for that matter, Afghanistan and Iraq. But there will be still be armed opposition.
Maybe Mexico should lead the security force? 🤔
 

"At a summit in Mexico City on Tuesday Joe Biden was expected to lobby Justin Trudeau for Canada to lead an international security force – in part to help stem the flow of Haitian refugees reaching the US."

Even JT isn't foolish enough to go forward with this, or I don't think so anyway, and who knows if this is even within our capabilities, it would certainly be ugly and costly. I don't think Canadian's or the CAF could stomach what it would take to fix Haiti at this point. Interesting that Biden is still pushing the issue, or maybe he's just calling out our government for having a big voice but never actually taking action.

For all we know Russia and China are trying to further destabilize the region to cause a headache close to home. Could turn into another proxy war mess depending who gets involved bringing arms in for the rebels, there's a lot of ways I could see this getting bad. Haiti should have never been left to its own control, I feel for the women and children stuck there but at the end of the day this isn't a mess I see Canadians supporting getting involved with.
We have enough HQ capacity to technically lead an international force, just not the combat arms PY's to flesh out the mission ourselves.

Depending on the size of the deployment (which would probably be in the hundreds) a few trips via Polaris would actually work just fine for personnel.

As for kit, its almost the perfect mission for a TAPV type vehicle. Or one of those Senator type vehicles we've ordered for Ukraine - armoured enough to be safe, solid optics, but no big scary turret w/ 25mm on the top.


Without a robust ROE to give the troops the opportunity to succeed, its and even worse idea than it already is.
The comparison isn’t a valid one. Haiti is indeed awash with small arms (largely sourced from the US and Colombia) but currenfly lacks the heavy weapons that were characteristic of Somali warlord-led militias. Haiti is a mess, but Haitian gangs aren’t exactly Al-Shabaab. Any major foreign intervention in Haiti will meet armed opposition considerably less sophisticated than what was seen in Somalia, and for that matter, Afghanistan and Iraq. But there will be still be armed opposition.
Was the armed opposition in Somalia really all that sophisticated?

And I agree with you, btw.

Someone above had made the comparison to Somalia - my question as to whether the gangs in Haiti were as well armed or not was meant somewhat tongue in cheek.
 

"At a summit in Mexico City on Tuesday Joe Biden was expected to lobby Justin Trudeau for Canada to lead an international security force – in part to help stem the flow of Haitian refugees reaching the US."

Even JT isn't foolish enough to go forward with this, or I don't think so anyway, and who knows if this is even within our capabilities, it would certainly be ugly and costly. I don't think Canadian's or the CAF could stomach what it would take to fix Haiti at this point. Interesting that Biden is still pushing the issue, or maybe he's just calling out our government for having a big voice but never actually taking action.

For all we know Russia and China are trying to further destabilize the region to cause a headache close to home. Could turn into another proxy war mess depending who gets involved bringing arms in for the rebels, there's a lot of ways I could see this getting bad. Haiti should have never been left to its own control, I feel for the women and children stuck there but at the end of the day this isn't a mess I see Canadians supporting getting involved with.
We have enough HQ capacity to technically lead an international force, just not the combat arms PY's to flesh out the mission ourselves.

Depending on the size of the deployment (which would probably be in the hundreds) a few trips via Polaris would actually work just fine for personnel.

As for kit, its almost the perfect mission for a TAPV type vehicle. Or one of those Senator type vehicles we've ordered for Ukraine - armoured enough to be safe, solid optics, but no big scary turret w/ 25mm on the top.


Without a robust ROE to give the troops the opportunity to succeed, its an even worse idea than it already is.

This is actually the kind of thing the UN could do very well at. Its geographically isolated, geographically small, and as safe ports in the Dominican Republic to use.
 
We have enough HQ capacity to technically lead an international force, just not the combat arms PY's to flesh out the mission ourselves.

We have thousands of Reservists, of course:

"At present, there are over 18,500 Army Reservists across Canada who look forward to a great future of personal growth, training and missions. By 2020, it is expected that the Army Reserve will grow to over 21,000."

 
We have the AOPs with the Hot Weather Package. :ROFLMAO:We can patrol and go anywhere now, those ships can deliver troops and supplies in limited quantities as needed. We have enough of the ships to do round trips to Miami and sustain operations........What a posting that would be forward Deployed to Mayport.
Can't be any worse than having the sustainment flights that were scheduled for Saturday always having mechanical problems when the refueled in Miami before hitting PAPIA- so they showed up first thing Sunday am during our only fresh meal of the week...
At least HLTA can be had at a resort on the same bloody island... 😐🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️
Nope, been there, done that. The places DND can afford in the DR are shitholes.
 
Todays issue of Politicos Ottawa Playbook has an interview David Cohen, the US Ambassador to Canada. One of the issues discussed was Haiti. Here is an excerpt from that interview regarding Haiti:

New year priorities: Haiti continues to be a hot topic between the U.S. and Canada while the humanitarian situation worsens in the country.

Any involvement in Haiti, Cohen said, “in all likelihood, will need to be a United Nations-sponsored and the United Nations-organized effort.”

He said any assistance is more likely to be related to the police than military “just to sort of adjust some of what people have been talking about.”

Sanctions targeting “Haitian elites” is Global Affairs Canada’s current go-to approach to quelling gang terror in the country.

This interview excerpt has been edited for length and clarity.

The U.S. sees potential in Canada taking a leadership role in Haiti, could you help us understand what that leadership role is?

The United States does have an interest in Canada stepping up and playing a leadership role in whatever is determined to be in the best interests of resolving the situation in Haiti, which first and foremost will be something that Haiti is interested in. Haiti has to ask for help.

If there was a takeaway from the NALS ( American leaders Summit) on Haiti, it wasn't at the level of "will Canada play a leadership role?" Or, "what will that leadership role look like?"

The agreement was that Canada and the United States should work together with the United Nations to try to develop what an engagement and external engagement would look like, in order to support the Haitian National Police to bring some stability to Haiti, all under the guidance, direction and at the request of Haiti. And once we have that, then we can address the issue of what a leadership role by Canada would look like.

Is there any timeline for that external engagement?

It’s ongoing. First, you have to have the plan. We have started the Canada-U.S.engagement in trying to determine what that engagement would look like.

There's a plan for a plan.

Well, there was an agreement to talk about what a plan would look like. I don't know that that in and of itself is a plan. That was the major Haiti takeaway from the NALS.

Link
 
Retired General sends....

Comment: Why Canada should not deploy a military force to Haiti​


From a strategic level, what would be the aim of such a deployment? Would it be to bring peace and security to the country?

Maj.-Gen. Cam Ross (retired)


A commentary by a former UN Assistant Secretary General and Force Commander UNDOF (Syria/Israel) with experience on three UN missions and who has been to Haiti. He lives in Victoria.

The U.S. president has asked a favour of Canada … lead a multinational, military force to bring peace and security to the troubled Caribbean nation.
After the tumultuous Trump years when the bilateral Canada-U.S. relationship was badly strained, it certainly would be nice to say “yes.”
However, the devil is always in the details.

Insanity is often defined as doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome. There have been many deployments to Haiti, most under the UN flag. This would not be Canada’s first rodeo in this corral.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has correctly stated that there will not be any deployment unless there is agreement by all parties involved. Good luck with that one.

As of Jan. 10, there isn’t a single democratically elected government official. Most of Haiti is controlled by gangs who operate with very localized self-interests. No new election has been called and it’s questionable if one could even be conducted in this toxic environment.

From a strategic level, what would be the aim of such a deployment? Would it be to bring peace and security to the country? Who defines when peace and security has been achieved … the UN, locals? It is easy to get in but horribly difficult to get out of an overseas mission.

If the aim is to bring peace, how do you achieve that under the UN Charter? A deployment under Chapter 6 permits the use of lethal force only in self-defence.

That means that a Canadian soldier, who is not being fired upon, cannot use his/her weapon to stop Haitians firing weapons at each other. This was the situation in the Balkans for many years until NATO stepped in under Chapter 7.

The situation changed dramatically. The local thugs bowed to NATO’s robust rules of engagement and professional use of lethal force.

However, a foreign military using force under Chapter 7 would very quickly result in local alienation and the desire to demit that force promptly.
And then there is the nasty and inconvenient reality of capacity. General Wayne D. Eyre, the PM’s primary military adviser, reportedly advised: “Latvia or Haiti; not both.” Such is the desperate personnel situation of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Few realize that the Canadian Army full-time field force fills the stands of an average NHL rink … that’s it; no more. It’s been that way for decades, even as Canada’s population growth has been one of the fastest in the OECD. Comparatively, the Army’s strength is slightly more than Oak Bay’s population.

Add our current deployment to the NATO mission in Latvia, plus trainers to Middle Eastern countries.

But the CAF’s priority is to recruit to regain losses of recent years. If we deploy more, who then will train those recruits? Those vital sergeants and warrant officers would already be getting ready to deploy, already there, or have just returned from overseas.

The same can be said for the police, who are equally challenged with HR capacity. It was very recently reported that the RCMP can’t investigate possible financial crimes due to lack of resources and conflicting priorities.

And finally, there is the cost. Deployments of troops are incredibly expensive both in funds and perils. With a combined federal and provincial debt load of 75 per cent of our economy, are we willing to undertake such risks for a venture that, through many past experiences, has shown the return on investment to be, at best, marginal?

As Yoda wisely said: “Do or do not; there is no try.” Haiti’s recovery from the abyss is a huge, long-term undertaking.

Canada’s capacity militarily and diplomatically has been allowed to atrophy to the extent that we are far from “back.” We can supply humanitarian aid and write cheques, but that’s about it. Our “rightful place on the global stage” remains a dream.

“Dear President Biden, Haiti is a no-go for us … although a G7 nation, we don’t have the capacity.”

 
Retired General sends....

Comment: Why Canada should not deploy a military force to Haiti​


From a strategic level, what would be the aim of such a deployment? Would it be to bring peace and security to the country?

Maj.-Gen. Cam Ross (retired)


A commentary by a former UN Assistant Secretary General and Force Commander UNDOF (Syria/Israel) with experience on three UN missions and who has been to Haiti. He lives in Victoria.

The U.S. president has asked a favour of Canada … lead a multinational, military force to bring peace and security to the troubled Caribbean nation.
After the tumultuous Trump years when the bilateral Canada-U.S. relationship was badly strained, it certainly would be nice to say “yes.”
However, the devil is always in the details.

Insanity is often defined as doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome. There have been many deployments to Haiti, most under the UN flag. This would not be Canada’s first rodeo in this corral.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has correctly stated that there will not be any deployment unless there is agreement by all parties involved. Good luck with that one.

As of Jan. 10, there isn’t a single democratically elected government official. Most of Haiti is controlled by gangs who operate with very localized self-interests. No new election has been called and it’s questionable if one could even be conducted in this toxic environment.

From a strategic level, what would be the aim of such a deployment? Would it be to bring peace and security to the country? Who defines when peace and security has been achieved … the UN, locals? It is easy to get in but horribly difficult to get out of an overseas mission.

If the aim is to bring peace, how do you achieve that under the UN Charter? A deployment under Chapter 6 permits the use of lethal force only in self-defence.

That means that a Canadian soldier, who is not being fired upon, cannot use his/her weapon to stop Haitians firing weapons at each other. This was the situation in the Balkans for many years until NATO stepped in under Chapter 7.

The situation changed dramatically. The local thugs bowed to NATO’s robust rules of engagement and professional use of lethal force.

However, a foreign military using force under Chapter 7 would very quickly result in local alienation and the desire to demit that force promptly.
And then there is the nasty and inconvenient reality of capacity. General Wayne D. Eyre, the PM’s primary military adviser, reportedly advised: “Latvia or Haiti; not both.” Such is the desperate personnel situation of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Few realize that the Canadian Army full-time field force fills the stands of an average NHL rink … that’s it; no more. It’s been that way for decades, even as Canada’s population growth has been one of the fastest in the OECD. Comparatively, the Army’s strength is slightly more than Oak Bay’s population.

Add our current deployment to the NATO mission in Latvia, plus trainers to Middle Eastern countries.

But the CAF’s priority is to recruit to regain losses of recent years. If we deploy more, who then will train those recruits? Those vital sergeants and warrant officers would already be getting ready to deploy, already there, or have just returned from overseas.

The same can be said for the police, who are equally challenged with HR capacity. It was very recently reported that the RCMP can’t investigate possible financial crimes due to lack of resources and conflicting priorities.

And finally, there is the cost. Deployments of troops are incredibly expensive both in funds and perils. With a combined federal and provincial debt load of 75 per cent of our economy, are we willing to undertake such risks for a venture that, through many past experiences, has shown the return on investment to be, at best, marginal?

As Yoda wisely said: “Do or do not; there is no try.” Haiti’s recovery from the abyss is a huge, long-term undertaking.

Canada’s capacity militarily and diplomatically has been allowed to atrophy to the extent that we are far from “back.” We can supply humanitarian aid and write cheques, but that’s about it. Our “rightful place on the global stage” remains a dream.

“Dear President Biden, Haiti is a no-go for us … although a G7 nation, we don’t have the capacity.”

Sounds about right.

If, if we were to do it would not placing Haiti in the UN List of Trust Territory be a way to go? Not a peacekeeping mission. Non self governing.

I know this would never work as a "white" nation taking over a "black" nation for starters and the Canada has has no stomach for what would need to be done.

Putting that all that aside. What would be the proper "legal" way to do it? As the piece touches on Chapter 5 and 7 of the UN as not viable. As pointed out you have get down and dirty. It would have to be an occupation by Canada. Build everything almost from the ground up. You are talking years and years.

I'm just thinking what would be the framework? To even think we could do it?

Just a hypothetical, because I think its an impossible in today world.
 
Sounds about right.

If, if we were to do it would not placing Haiti in the UN List of Trust Territory be a way to go? Not a peacekeeping mission. Non self governing.

I know this would never work as a "white" nation taking over a "black" nation for starters and the Canada has has no stomach for what would need to be done.

Putting that all that aside. What would be the proper "legal" way to do it? As the piece touches on Chapter 5 and 7 of the UN as not viable. As pointed out you have get down and dirty. It would have to be an occupation by Canada. Build everything almost from the ground up. You are talking years and years.

I'm just thinking what would be the framework? To even think we could do it?

Just a hypothetical, because I think its an impossible in today world.

The proper way is to let nature run its course and leave Haiti's fate up to the Haitians.

The world can't be their helicopter parent everytime they F shit up again. Sorry folks, what's left of the good people in your country need fight a war there. It's up to you now.
 
The proper way is to let nature run its course and leave Haiti's fate up to the Haitians.

The world can't be their helicopter parent everytime they F shit up again. Sorry folks, what's left of the good people in your country need fight a war there. It's up to you now.

I don't know anything much about Libya, but they seem to have 'turned a page'.

Maybe this might work in Haiti?

 
What can we do, what can we do? Here's something! (archived here)
Today, the Minister of National Defence, Anita Anand, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mélanie Joly, announced that Canada has deployed a Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) CP-140 Aurora long-range patrol aircraft to support Canada’s efforts to disrupt the activities of gangs in Haiti and demonstrate Canada’s commitment to the Haitian people. Canada is undertaking efforts to address the dire security situation in the country and supports the Haitian National Police. Canada is providing this assistance in response to Haiti’s request for support as violence continues to escalate in the country.

This Canadian patrol aircraft will provide intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capability to bolster efforts to establish and maintain peace and security for the people of Haiti. The CP-140 aircraft has already deployed to the region and is currently operating over Haiti. It will remain in the region for a number of days.

Canada supports the people of Haiti as they strive for a peaceful and prosperous future. Canada has been supportive of diplomatic efforts toward an inclusive political dialogue that will lead to fair and free elections; provided more than $98 million in international assistance to respond to the urgent and basic needs of the population; imposed sanctions on those responsible for the ongoing violence, including Haitian elites who are enabling the gangs; and provided support to the Haitian National Police ...
 
I mean... good tool for COIN operations for sure.

I honestly feel bad for SJS right now. It seems like they're cobbling together what we have left in the cupboard and calling it an effect.

Like God making the platypus from the spare parts that wre left over...
 
They don't have MANPADs, right?

Right?

Not 'officially' it seems. Yet. ;)



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