Great Lakes machine guns raise ire in Canada
- Thread starter FredDaHead
- Start date
As a young tyke in Port Arthur (now part of Thunder Bay) in the sixties, my family joined thousands of other locals touring HMCS Nipigon when it came to visit it's river. I seem to recall some talk of iher doing live-fire exercises on Lake Superior after it left port. Any old salts out there remember this?
Tom
Tom
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The Liberal government in 2003 agreed that USCG could use MGs (up to .50 cal. which USCG says it doesn't plan to mount) without violating the 1817 Rush-Bagot Treaty (which did not ban guns from all vessels on the Great Lakes). Our government also reserved the right to arm Canadian vessels.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/03/15/coastguard-060315.html
Perhaps Mayor Miller should be mad at them. Meanwhile, the only to be expected dept: Taliban Jack, during the Commons' Question Period today, in highest outraged dudgeon demanded the government tell the US to "shut down the firing" in the Great Lakes. If only someone could shut him down.
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/beach+boys/shut+down_20013813.html
NY Times story noting both US and Canadian "concerns":
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/16/us/16lakes.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin
Mark
Ottawa
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/03/15/coastguard-060315.html
Perhaps Mayor Miller should be mad at them. Meanwhile, the only to be expected dept: Taliban Jack, during the Commons' Question Period today, in highest outraged dudgeon demanded the government tell the US to "shut down the firing" in the Great Lakes. If only someone could shut him down.
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/beach+boys/shut+down_20013813.html
NY Times story noting both US and Canadian "concerns":
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/16/us/16lakes.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin
Mark
Ottawa
It struck me that I had seen the kind of performance Taliban Jack excels in before. You know, the frenzied contortions and the florid language on demand. It is all so predictable, just the subject changes. One day, it is budget cuts, on another, the Afghanistan mission and on a third, the USCG arming their vessels on the Great Lakes. At the risk of getting too personal, I wonder if Big Mouth Billy Bass is his communications coach.
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It's them crazy people that live on Ward Island. You know that ones that pay next to nothing for their houses, complain about everything from the water being too cold to the noise coming from ACROSS the water being too loud. Excommunicate their asses to a nice subdivision and force them to work and pay for stuff instead of having it given to them at next to nothing prices. I walked Ward's late at night once during the summer of '05, and I was scared that the hippies would get me.
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Live fire exercises suspended.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/10/16/coast-guard-guns.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2006/10/16/coast-guard-guns.html
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3rd Herd said:
I'm hazarding a guess that the issue of whether addtional heavy metal materials will cause further bio-accumulation of said substances into the food chain is what they will be looking at. (read up on the remediation of the Mid Canada Radar Line - RMC, Dr B Zeeb, if you're interested in what bioaccumulation/bioconcentration and biomagnification of toxic substances can do once it hits the food chain).
- Reaction score
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- Points
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Jumpin' Jack in the House Oct. 16:
"This is on top of the fact that the vessels of the coast guard have very powerful machine guns on them now."
http://davidakin.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/10/17/2423003.html#comments
Actually M240-B:
http://www.10nbc.com/news.asp?template=item&story_id=20464
http://tech.military.com/equipment/view/89056/m-240b-machine-gun.html
What would Jack consider a "very weak" machine gun? This might fit but I doubt Jack knows about it:
http://www.army.dnd.ca/Land_force/English/2_0_39_1.asp?uSubSection=39&uSection=5
Maybe he'd be happy if the USCG used the US version:
http://www.army.mil/fact_files_site/m-249_saw/index.html
Now here's "...the most powerful machinegun ever manufactured in quantity..."
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg01-e.htm
Mark
Ottawa
"This is on top of the fact that the vessels of the coast guard have very powerful machine guns on them now."
http://davidakin.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/10/17/2423003.html#comments
Actually M240-B:
http://www.10nbc.com/news.asp?template=item&story_id=20464
http://tech.military.com/equipment/view/89056/m-240b-machine-gun.html
What would Jack consider a "very weak" machine gun? This might fit but I doubt Jack knows about it:
http://www.army.dnd.ca/Land_force/English/2_0_39_1.asp?uSubSection=39&uSection=5
Maybe he'd be happy if the USCG used the US version:
http://www.army.mil/fact_files_site/m-249_saw/index.html
Now here's "...the most powerful machinegun ever manufactured in quantity..."
http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg01-e.htm
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 4,265
- Points
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A bit more of the exchange, for your reading pleasure....
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1&DocId=2401737#SOB-1693103
Layton: "We all know that the Liberals sold us out when they allowed a treaty concocted two centuries ago to keep the Great Lakes demilitarized to be violated."
Guess he didn't check out the Coast Guard's site on this one, with the 2003 letters between CAN & USA:
http://www.uscgd9safetyzones.com/posted/1295/Rush_Bagot_Final.135454.pdf
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1&DocId=2401737#SOB-1693103
Layton: "We all know that the Liberals sold us out when they allowed a treaty concocted two centuries ago to keep the Great Lakes demilitarized to be violated."
Guess he didn't check out the Coast Guard's site on this one, with the 2003 letters between CAN & USA:
http://www.uscgd9safetyzones.com/posted/1295/Rush_Bagot_Final.135454.pdf
- Reaction score
- 4,265
- Points
- 1,260
Ya HAD to know it was going to lead to someone suing - usual disclaimer....
Group plans to sue Coast Guard
Alleges lead ammo will break water law
Dennis Lien, Pioneer Press (St. Paul, MN), 20 Oct 06http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/living/15802368.htm
Upset with a U.S. Coast Guard plan to hold live-fire training drills on the Great Lakes, a Duluth-based environmental group threatened Thursday to return fire.
Citizens for Environmental Enforcement notified the Coast Guard it will file a Clean Water Act citizen lawsuit in two months if the military doesn't back off.
The Coast Guard wants to mount its Great Lakes vessels with machine guns and conduct target practice in 34 permanent zones, including two off the north shore of Lake Superior. It said it began the drills earlier this year to upgrade its response to post Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist threats from Canada, but has temporarily suspended them.
Curt Leitz, executive director of the nonprofit group, said the bullets would result in almost 7,000 pounds of lead, a toxic metal, being discharged into the lakes each year.
The Clean Water Act bans the discharge of such pollutants into lakes without a permit, he said. He added the Coast Guard also doesn't have a permit for the live-fire training.
"We are for the radical idea that the law should be followed,'' Leitz said.
A Coast Guard spokesman could not be reached for comment.
Because lead causes so many health problems, authorities have worked for decades to reduce its use in the environment, succeeding in having it removed from paint and gasoline. In recent years, it's been banned in shotgun-shell pellets for waterfowl hunting and discouraged or banned in fishing tackle sinkers.
Critics have argued that, besides damaging the lakes' ecosystem, the exercises will be dangerous for unsuspecting boaters who might stray into firing zones and will force others to spend more money on fuel to stay away from them.
Leitz said he believes his organization, formed this summer, is the first to challenge the drills in court.
The 60-day notice letter sent to the Coast Guard on Thursday is required under the Clean Water Act. Marc Fink, a lawyer for the group, said that period gives the Coast Guard a chance to adjust its plans to comply with the law.
Group plans to sue Coast Guard
Alleges lead ammo will break water law
Dennis Lien, Pioneer Press (St. Paul, MN), 20 Oct 06http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/living/15802368.htm
Upset with a U.S. Coast Guard plan to hold live-fire training drills on the Great Lakes, a Duluth-based environmental group threatened Thursday to return fire.
Citizens for Environmental Enforcement notified the Coast Guard it will file a Clean Water Act citizen lawsuit in two months if the military doesn't back off.
The Coast Guard wants to mount its Great Lakes vessels with machine guns and conduct target practice in 34 permanent zones, including two off the north shore of Lake Superior. It said it began the drills earlier this year to upgrade its response to post Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist threats from Canada, but has temporarily suspended them.
Curt Leitz, executive director of the nonprofit group, said the bullets would result in almost 7,000 pounds of lead, a toxic metal, being discharged into the lakes each year.
The Clean Water Act bans the discharge of such pollutants into lakes without a permit, he said. He added the Coast Guard also doesn't have a permit for the live-fire training.
"We are for the radical idea that the law should be followed,'' Leitz said.
A Coast Guard spokesman could not be reached for comment.
Because lead causes so many health problems, authorities have worked for decades to reduce its use in the environment, succeeding in having it removed from paint and gasoline. In recent years, it's been banned in shotgun-shell pellets for waterfowl hunting and discouraged or banned in fishing tackle sinkers.
Critics have argued that, besides damaging the lakes' ecosystem, the exercises will be dangerous for unsuspecting boaters who might stray into firing zones and will force others to spend more money on fuel to stay away from them.
Leitz said he believes his organization, formed this summer, is the first to challenge the drills in court.
The 60-day notice letter sent to the Coast Guard on Thursday is required under the Clean Water Act. Marc Fink, a lawyer for the group, said that period gives the Coast Guard a chance to adjust its plans to comply with the law.
- Reaction score
- 146
- Points
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"Gray Lady's with Jumpin' Jack"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/007930.html
Mark
Ottawa
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/007930.html
Mark
Ottawa
- Reaction score
- 0
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PSY OPS,
In case the site owner, and Scott, haven't made the case clear:
Post something of content and value, or don't post. Right now you are trolling, and that is not tolerated.
Humour is appreciated, idiocy is not.
Political discussion is encouraged, bizarre babbling is not.
To date, you've only managed to make yourself appear a right horse's arse.
In case the site owner, and Scott, haven't made the case clear:
Post something of content and value, or don't post. Right now you are trolling, and that is not tolerated.
Humour is appreciated, idiocy is not.
Political discussion is encouraged, bizarre babbling is not.
To date, you've only managed to make yourself appear a right horse's arse.
Canadian nautical charts show that DND has 4 current fireing ranges in lakes area, Meaford , Cedar Springs , Niagara -on- the- Lake & Grimsby. Wheather they are utilized very much or not i don't know. There used to be other area's but they were discontinued years ago.
As was alluded to earlier, i know that in the 60's & 70's i was on warships that did fireing demo's for invited guests on many occasions while touring the great lakes. In any case times as we know are changing and we became politicaly & enviromently correct. Many countries militaries now are required to use special ammo on their land ranges to prevent contamination. I guess the only people who aren't worried about pollution are the poor sods on the receiving end.
Cheers
As was alluded to earlier, i know that in the 60's & 70's i was on warships that did fireing demo's for invited guests on many occasions while touring the great lakes. In any case times as we know are changing and we became politicaly & enviromently correct. Many countries militaries now are required to use special ammo on their land ranges to prevent contamination. I guess the only people who aren't worried about pollution are the poor sods on the receiving end.
Cheers
- Reaction score
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- Points
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Any legitimate concerns about boater safety or pollution is lost among the rabid anti-Americanism and anti-military rhetoric being spewed by the usual sources...
It's all fun and games until someone is able to plough a hijacked tanker into the Pickering/Darlington/Bruce nuclear power plant because neither nation has an armed presence on the great lakes... I wonder what that would do for the environment :
It's all fun and games until someone is able to plough a hijacked tanker into the Pickering/Darlington/Bruce nuclear power plant because neither nation has an armed presence on the great lakes... I wonder what that would do for the environment :
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