Government finds new ways to screw soldiers in the name of saving money: door-to-door move policy

[McG]

The career managers deserve some positive acknowledgment for this years initiative to go with two (as opposed to a single common) posting dates for all pers.  It seems someone discovered that giving everyone the exact same COS date resulted in so many people moving within the same communities on the same day, that a lot of families were not even able to get the moving companies' B teams .... and as a result a lot of things were getting lost and/or broken (I can share an amusing tale about a time that a truck arrived ready to deliver another soldier's F&E to my new house of the time).

Unfortunately, somewhere else within the bureaucracy, someone found a way to implement a policy that will counter the goal of the CMs' initiative, will make soldiers pay for unavoidable costs moving, and will make the housing market dysfunctional in primarily military communities (Wainwright, Oromocto, Petawawa & Pembroke, Shilo, Cold Lake, Baggotville, etc, etc).

If service personnel cannot arrange the perfect door-to-door move, then they will pay from their own pockets for hotels, restaurants, storage of furniture, and any other costs associated with waiting for a home to become available.

Around any base not attached to a major city (most bases) there are whole communities that are dependent on incoming military to buy from the outgoing military.  These markets will become dysfunctional as there is suddenly no flexibility to negotiate closing dates ... especially between pers of different COS dates.   

The stupidness is even bigger when one takes the time to examine it.  Even though I've learned there is usually an intelligent reason behind every apparently stupid decision (though not necessarily an adequate reason, I cannot fathom what anyone might have been thinking when they decided to make soldiers carry typical costs associated with government dictated moves. 

???

 

[Michael OLeary]

If service personnel cannot arrange the perfect door-to-door move, then they will pay from their own pockets for hotels, restaurants, storage of furniture, and any other costs associated with waiting for a home to become available.

It's all been headed in this direction for years, thanks in large part to the outsourcing of support to coordinate moves and contractors looking for ways to squeeze the budget tighter and tighter to maximize their profits.  My last few moves were under the program and each was more frustrating because of uncaring contract staff who were drones and slaves to the bureaucratic books of limitations.  They neither sought to help the service member or make the system more workable at any level affecting the individual.

 

[ENGINEERS WIFE]

From my understanding, this also includes any contracts, like cable, cellphone, etc... the cancellation fees will not be covered either.

 

[SupersonicMax]

MCG, is that even if it's outside the member's power to make a door-to-door happen?

Is there anywhere where we can find this year's IRP Guide?

 

[Michael OLeary]

MCG, is that even if it's outside the member's power to make a door-to-door happen?

Is there anywhere where we can find this year's IRP Guide?

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2009/index-eng.asp

 

[McG]

... uncaring contract staff who were drones and slaves to the bureaucratic books of limitations.

But, it is someone(s) inside government who are responsible for establishing those policies.  The policy makers should wear their decisions (for better or for worse) and not the implementers .... something in line with a don't shoot the messenger philosophy. 

MCG, is that even if it's outside the member's power to make a door-to-door happen?

Is there anywhere where we can find this year's IRP Guide?

Even if it is outside the members power, the member pays.  The guide attempts to suggest otherwise, but anyone that has moved a few times knows that it is not possible for everyone to arrange perfect door-to-door moves, and the guide states:

CF members whose closing date is after the date the HG&E is available for delivery have made a personal choice to await a specific house and are therefore responsible for additional costs associated with the later closing.

This is an unrealistic constraint.

 

[Michael OLeary]

But, it is someone(s) inside government who are responsible for establishing those policies.  The policy makers should wear their decisions (for better or for worse) and not the implementers .... something in line with a don't shoot the messenger philosophy. 

Yes, but try submitting a complaint and getting it to anyone who deals with that policy, it is not a supportive process designed to assist the member. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Relocation Directive - APS 2009
Chapter 2 - Administration
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2009/chapter-chapitre-02-eng.asp#sec-02-02

CF members are responsible for:

    * contacting the service provider within 21 days after receiving their posting instruction;
    * requesting confirmation in writing of the information given by the service provider;
    * forwarding to the CF Relocation Coordinator requests for adjudication;
    * understanding their relocation benefits, conditions, and limitations as expenses, resulting from misinterpretation or mistakes will not necessarily be reimbursable;
    * considering the information provided, asking for additional clarification, and making timely decisions regarding benefits; and
    * ensuring a door-to-door move, by coordinating the:
          o disposal of accommodation,
          o acquisition of accommodation,
          o occupancy date of new accommodation,
          o report for duty date,
          o shipment of HG&E, and
          o travel to new location.

Not phrased to state that a door-to-door move is the goal, it is specific that it's the member's "responsibility" to ensure one.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Section 9.1 does talk about storage in transit, so from my understanding, you are still entitled to it.

However, section 5.01 does say :

Once HG&E is available for delivery at the new place of duty, ILM&M is no longer reimbursable unless circumstances beyond the CF members control extend the entitlement. CF members whose closing date is after the date the HG&E is available for delivery have made a personal choice to await a specific house and are therefore responsible for additional costs associated with the later closing.

That means, if you end up getting screwed at destination (ie:  CFHA doesn't have your Q ready yet/house you're getting built is not ready on time), you will be covered for ILM&M. 

I do not own a house and never did while having to deal with a CF move.  Do you normally sell your house at origin or buy one at destination?  Eighter way, it seem pretty unreasonable to expect a member to close both houses on a date that will be okay for a door-to-door move.

On the cancelling cost subject, I could not find anything in the document talking about it, so I assume it has indeed been cancelled...

On a different token, you can claim the remainder of the expenses on your taxes. Granted it won't be 100%, but it's still better than a kick in the butt.

 

[armyvern]

Ask questions. Get it in writing.

According to this:

APS 2009 A-PP-005-IRP-AG-001
Chapter 5. Interim Lodgings, Meals and Miscellaneous Expenses, continued
5.08 Commercial lodgings
Entitlements are to be reimbursed as per art 3.2.01 and in conjunction with art 5.04, based on the following:
Core benefit
• up to 15 nights; and
• from the 16th night until the HG&E is reunited with CF members when the Department or its contracted agent caused HG&E delivery delay and BComd/BAdmO approves.

I'm seeing a core entitlement of up to 15 days interim meals and lodgings stated in the 2009 manual. And a possible extension over the 16th day onward if the department or it's agent caused HG&E delay.

So, the way I read it all is that I'd be entitled "up to 15 days" ILM if my F&E didn't arrive until the 15th day. If it arrives on day 2, I'm on my own if my house isn't available until day 4 or 5 or 6 or ....

Guess we'd all better make sure we only buy houses from CF guys who have the exact same COS date as we do. Then we're both fucked equally. Buy from a guy who has the 2nd COS date they're using this year, you could be on your own ... "by our own choice to choose to wait for that particular house".  :

Although, I guess the arguement could be made that the Dept caused the non door-to-door move be giving the other guy a different COS date than mine - therefore my ILM for the other days should be covered. That solves it - only buy from CF guys/gals ... that way you have a fighting chance in hell of making it "their" fault vice "personal" choice.  :

Either way, thanks for not kissing me first - swell move. And they wonder why people are getting the hell out of this outfit these days. At least we get a little foreplay at home.

 

[McG]

Who will buy a house in Oromocto other than a military family waiting for a house to sell somewhere else?  How much flixibility is there in Quebec for a closing date other than moving day?

On a different token, you can claim the remainder of the expenses on your taxes. Granted it won't be 100%, but it's still better than a kick in the butt.

Telling a single income family that they will swallow the cost of a week of hotels & furniture storage is (from the perspective of that family) probably a whole lot worse than a kick in the butt ... even if it can be claimed on taxes.

I've also seen F&E (or HG&E as the new acronym appears) was ready to be delivered earlier than the number of travel days allowed. What does that mean for families with young children that need to take the full travel time?

And while the members & their families are being forced to cover the costs of just doing the job, the implementation of this policy is also attacking the proper function of the housing markets in military communities.  You can't do an HHT until you have sold, but you can't sell because the rest of the posted military is sitting at home waiting for their places to sell.  Gradually, people will trickle out of the larger cities (Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Halifax) but not fast enough for those who need to sell.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I've also seen F&E (or HG&E as the new acronym appears) was ready to be delivered earlier than the number of travel days allowed. What does that mean for families with young children that need to take the full travel time?

In that case, you'd be allowed to these travel days and you do not have to be at destination until the last travel day.  This is my interpretation anyways, since it's an entitlement.  On loading day, I was always able to get an accurate estimate, from the driver, of when he'll be at destination.

And while the members & their families are being forced to cover the costs of just doing the job, the implementation of this policy is also attacking the proper function of the housing markets in military communities.  You can't do an HHT until you have sold, but you can't sell because the rest of the posted military is sitting at home waiting for their places to sell.  Gradually, people will trickle out of the larger cities (Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, Halifax) but not fast enough for those who need to sell.

I agree that it is not right and totally unfair to the members.  Because we're in the military, it seems we cannot chose the home that will suit our needs and tastes better, or else, we may end up paying part of the bill.  Moving is part of our life and it should be made as painless as possible, IMO.  So far, in my 3 moves, I never had any real issues. 

 

[Bigg_H]

So, in layman's terms, how would I arrange a move? What is the consensus? Is it 1 bad move in 5? 3 good ones to 1 bad one?

 

[Sub_Guy]

This policy sucks, so now instead of looking for a house that can accommodate my family I have to now focus on the closing date and possession date being back to back.  Which is damn near impossible for those big moves like Esquimalt to Comox.

 

[TimBit]

Who will buy a house in Oromocto other than a military family waiting for a house to sell somewhere else?  How much flixibility is there in Quebec for a closing date other than moving day?
Telling a single income family that they will swallow the cost of a week of hotels & furniture storage is (from the perspective of that family) probably a whole lot worse than a kick in the butt ... even if it can be claimed on taxes.

Well I wouldn't know about Oromocto but in Quebec there are always plenty of houses on the market with varied closing dates. Moving dates is for rental really.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Well I wouldn't know about Oromocto but in Quebec there are always plenty of houses on the market with varied closing dates. Moving dates is for rental really.

The possibility of finding a house that meets the family's requirements for size, locations, etc., will vary widely across Canada.  The questions remains: how flexible is the policy going to be for those members posted to areas where a surplus of choice does not exist?

 

[TimBit]

The possibility of finding a house that meets the family's requirements for size, locations, etc., will vary widely across Canada.  The questions remains: how flexible is the policy going to be for those members posted to areas where a surplus of choice does not exist?

I really wasn't commenting on the policy, more on the actual market in Quebec. That said, I take your point, if there is no surplus of choice, or if it is a big time military city then it might not look too good...

 

[CountDC]

I think the opening of chapter 1 says it all:

1.1.02 Policy statement
The Department will:

pay for a door-to-door move when authorized to relocate at public expense

 

[McG]

You do understand that door-to-door means that you do not spend any time in hotels waiting for your next residence to become available, right?

If your furniture is ready to be delivered but you do not yet have your new residence, then you will start paying.

 

[birdgunnnersrule]

The door to door policy is really stupid. During my last move from Kingston to Ottawa, the IRP folks were adamant that I needed to take possession of my house the day after leaving the PMQ in Kingston.  With kids, cat, and the wife in tow we rush frantically to Ottawa to get all of the paperwork signed first thing in the morning so the truck could arrive.  Low and behold upon calling the traffic section in Ottawa to let them know we were ready we were politely informed that there is a policy that dictates that our effects were not to be delivered for another four days. Not only did we have to scramble to find a hotel that took pets at the last minute during the tourist season, a different truck arrived the following week with our banged up furniture because it was offloaded and re-shuffled at a warehouse.  Finally, the IRP folks are very good at the policy piece.  If everyone followed up and filed complaints for what they really wanted to reimbursed then perhaps folks would figure out that we are being milked. Yes the 15 dollars for registering my cats as per CFHA direction and city bylaws was will worth the fight when we moved to Kingston.