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Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread

Please. It's not as though I didn't look beyond that. MMFA's point was that the article was reported as something it clearly was not. I note that Curry doesn't dispute that, her write up is more focused on certain responses to it - stating, clearly, that there's reason to dispute the findings in the original article, and they'll be disputed. The real problem, though, isn't that article, it's the way it was repeatedly misrepresented.

Haletown said:
Oh boy, MediaMatters has decided the study was flawed.  Well that settles it.  Because  MediaMatters doesn't have an agenda, except of course to still believe Obama has an IQ over 90.

If the paper was so flawed, why wasn't it pulled? It has not been pulled from publication. The paper stands.

The normal procedure if a paper is disputed is letters are sent to the Journal, the errors revealed and then the original author has a chance for a rebuttal.

This normal process wasn't followed. Why?

Then counter papers are published and the normal process is to include the original author  as a peer reviewer. The original  paper took two long years of tedious peer review and many attempts to derail it.  The counter paper took three weeks to get through peer review and they didn't ask Dr. Spencer to bee on the Peer Review team. 

Every paper published is challenged and "flaws" are found, but this is a witch hunt.


The real question is why did Wagner resign, who pressured him and why.  His resignation email says he was surprised that some of the peer reviewers were sympathetic to being skeptical of global warming.  Two years it took and he wasn't aware of the reviewers professional records?  Hilarious.

Did Wagner cave to pressure from the Warmongers, threats to be out of the loop, kicked off the AGW Gravy Train, not invited to all the nice meetings in Bali? 

Time will tell.


If the best you can do is MediaMatters you really need to expand your horizons.

Here's Judith Curry on the matter . . . and she's very highly respected and a bit of a Warmer

http://judithcurry.com/2011/09/05/update-on-spencer-braswell-part-ii/#more-4805

Here's Roger Pielke Snr  - and he's one of the most respected Climate Scientists.

http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/comments-on-the-dessler-2011-grl-paper-cloud-variations-and-the-earths-energy-budget/
 
Redeye said:
Please. It's not as though I didn't look beyond that. MMFA's point was that the article was reported as something it clearly was not. I note that Curry doesn't dispute that, her write up is more focused on certain responses to it - stating, clearly, that there's reason to dispute the findings in the original article, and they'll be disputed. The real problem, though, isn't that article, it's the way it was repeatedly misrepresented.

Then why would Wagner resign?  Because of external misrepresentation?

Ya right.  Using that logic he should reapply for his job based on the mis-misrepresentation of MediaMatters.


Just another desperate attempt by the usual crew to keep the Great Scam going becausethey know they'll never get another gig like it.

That sound you hear is another wheel coming off the Great AGW Scam Bus.


 
Haletown said:
That sound you hear is another wheel coming off the Great AGW Scam Bus.

And yet its widespread popular acceptance as reality remains pretty much unchanged...
 
Redeye said:
And yet its widespread popular acceptance as reality remains pretty much unchanged...

Right . . . just like Copenhagen/COP15 was widely accepted and highly successful - because the AGW science  has widespread popular acceptance as reality and the Kyoto 2 is going to be ratified.  Because  AGW climate models work perfectly.

Eugenics in the 1930's  had  widespread popularity and for centuries it was well known that the Earth was the center of the solar system. Until it wasn't anymore.  Lots of things have widespread acceptance and are not true.  Popularity is not science, well maybe at MediMatters.

But if you are comfortable believing in AGW, fill your boots. No worries for me.

You have given up using all petroleum products, right?  Practice what you preach and all that.  :nod:

 
Redeye said:
Pretty much none. And deservedly so. It was just blown right out of the water as wildly misrepresenting a study - so much that the journal's editor has resigned.  Oops.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109020008

Yeah, MediaMatters seems a touch biased... ironically, most of their articles deal with the bias of Fox News.  Just a touch of pan calling the kettle black.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Yeah, MediaMatters seems a touch biased... ironically, most of their articles deal with the bias of Fox News.  Just a touch of pan calling the kettle black.

Media Matters For America's sole purpose in existing is to highlight Fox News' bias, misrepresentation, and generally not being news.  As you might notice, they do it constantly. As David Frum said, "Republicans originally thought that Fox worked for us, and now we are discovering we work for Fox."  Fox is an agitprop machine, MMFA's the counterbalance. Anyhow, I wouldn't use them as a primary source on anything, they're just great aggregators.
 
Haletown said:
Right . . . just like Copenhagen/COP15 was widely accepted and highly successful - because the AGW science  has widespread popular acceptance as reality and the Kyoto 2 is going to be ratified.  Because  AGW climate models work perfectly.

Eugenics in the 1930's  had  widespread popularity and for centuries it was well known that the Earth was the center of the solar system. Until it wasn't anymore.  Lots of things have widespread acceptance and are not true.  Popularity is not science, well maybe at MediMatters.

:facepalm:

Haletown said:
But if you are comfortable believing in AGW, fill your boots. No worries for me.

It's kind of a Pascal's Wager. If science turns out to be wrong, well, fine. It happens. The steps taken to deal with the program will largely have positive benefits to humanity regardless. But the cost of not doing anything, and finding out it's actually really true (and remember, it's about as controversial as evolution in the scientific community: not at all, overall, just lots of discourse about various facets) is dire.

Haletown said:
You have given up using all petroleum products, right?  Practice what you preach and all that.  :nod:

:facepalm:

No one's asking anyone to do that. However, I drive a fairly fuel efficient vehicle most of the time (and while tailpipe NOx emissions from motorcycles are worse than cars, they still use less fuel, and that's one vice I won't give up). I use energy efficiently in my home. My rental property has a heat pump, and programmable thermostat that saves a lot of energy for my tenants, and they reap rewards from that because it keeps their costs down. I make choices that ultimately, generally "reduce my carbon footprint", but I do so in large part because of economic motivation. It costs me less money which leaves me more to do other things with. All I want to see happen is further economic incentives to steer people that way, particularly in cases where there are large upfront costs that pay off over time, because our inability to assess present values particularly well often distorts consumption choices.

That's why I don't get the denier set (other than the coal and oil/gas industry, obviously). No one's trying to force anyone to make major, destructive changes to their lives.
 
But the problem, Redeye, is that Fox News is not alone in being characterized by "bias, misrepresentation, and generally not being news. " In fact the infotainment and propaganda segments of American news appear, to me, to be the new mainstream. What we need is an independent - not funded by government or any special interest group - group that corrects the errors and downright lies that are the stock in trade of the left and right wing media. Then I would give a damn about what they say; Media matters is crap because it is every bit as biased and misrepresents the 'news' just as much as Fox, and it deserves the same disdain.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
But the problem, Redeye, is that Fox News is not alone in being characterized by "bias, misrepresentation, and generally not being news. " In fact the infotainment and propaganda segments of American news appear, to me, to be the new mainstream. What we need is an independent - not funded by government or any special interest group - group that corrects the errors and downright lies that are the stock in trade of the left and right wing media. Then I would give a damn about what they say; Media matters is crap because it is every bit as biased and misrepresents the 'news' just as much as Fox, and it deserves the same disdain.

May I present factcheck.org and politifact.org?

And just out of curiosity, in the case of the US in particular, would you mind pointing out the "left wing media"? I can't really seem to find them. Certainly not on the scale of Fox et al, to say the least. MSNBC leans slightly left, but not really, and remarkably, the orgs I just listed seem to find a lot less problematic with their reporting (though they do find things, to be sure.)
 
Jerry Pournelle:

http://jerrypournelle.com/chaosmanor/?p=1837

Climate Change

The debate continues. My views have not changed: we don’t know enough, and the Climate Modelers continue to act as if we do. When all this began back in the 1980’s I said that the modelers were agreed that there was man-made global warming, and the data collectors did not agree at all. Over time that changed, not be collection of better data, but by the ascendency of the modelers over the people who actually studied climate and climate data. It’s still relatively true: the people who actually study climate are nowhere near as certain that they know what’s going on as the modelers – and the whole thing has got political enough that those who do find results contrary to the consensus are denounced, called Deniers, and are denied places to publish. Contrary opinions tend not to be published – which in these days of the Internet is an exercise in futility. But when contrary views are published the consequences for those who do the peer reviews and actual publishing can be severe.

I presume we have all heard the story of how Wolfgang Wagner has resigned his editorship of Remote Sensing because he allowed the Spencer and Braswell paper “On the Misdiagnosis of Surface Temperature Feedbacks from Variations in Earth’s Radiant Energy Balance” to be published. For a pretty cool analysis of this incident, see William Briggs, http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=4311. Briggs is a competent statistician, and his analysis, once he cools the opening rhetoric down, is both comprehensive and competent. (Note that I tend to agree with his opening rhetoric, but I might have preferred it if he had reserved it for his conclusions.)

Everywhere I look I see the hockey stick; it’s very prominent in the current issue of Science News, which is a publication of Believers, and you will often see it in Scientific American. It is no longer called the Hockey Stick, and the scandal about how the hockey stick curves were generated is mostly forgotten, but the curve, which shows thousands of years of global temperature oscillating within limits, suddenly shoots up at the end of the 20th Century and the beginning of the 21st. That spike isn’t found in the data so far as I know, but it’s still there in the chart, and that chart is ubiquitous. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/332612/title/Small_volcanoes_add_up_to_cooler_climate

    clip_image005[1]

    Someone looking at a graph of global temperature since worldwide instrumental records began in 1880 might reasonably conclude that the recent upward trend is not terribly extreme. But longer records are available. The ones shown here use a number of “proxy” records: tree ring thicknesses, the chemical composition of lake and ocean sediment cores, rates of coral growth and other natural phenomena that vary with temperature. Each colored line represents a slightly different interpretation of the data, but they all clearly point to the same conclusion: The past few decades have been the warmest in centuries.

    Credit: R. Rohde/Wikimedia Commons, adapted by E. Feliciano

That was in, of all things, an article on how “Ocean currents and sulfur haze deliver global warming hiatus” on why we aren’t getting warm as fast as the global warming theorists were sure we would. But yet there is that chart with that “back story” telling us in the voice of calm reason that “the past few decades have been the warmest in centuries.” A close look will show that the chart is in tenths of a degree; and how we are sure that it is hotter now than it was during the period of the Viking Greenland Colonies (when there were wine grapes in Scotland, and longer growing seasons in China, and generally warmer climates across the northern hemisphere) is not really explained. In other words, the consensus is assumed, and the accuracy of the data assumed.

Something else hasn’t changed: the approved means of dealing with Deniers.

    Repeat it

    The original and still most popular approach to dealing with climate deniers is reasoned persuasion: facts and figures and reports and literature reviews and slideshows and whitepapers. This hasn’t ever really worked, but climate types keep trying, like American tourists in a foreign country who try to overcome the language barrier by talking louder and more slowly.

    http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/08/13/271676/whats-the-best-strategy-for-dealing-with-deniers/

With trillions at stake, with the future of humanity at stake, it’s time for the inquisition. We’re so sure we know.

The Science News article, in case you have forgotten, is about why the earth has not warmed up so much in the past decade.

Like Burt Rutan, I have had to do data collection, and try to produce meaningful averages from fluctuating data – fluctuating because of noise in the lab, as well as fluctuating because the data stream itself was fluctuating. In my case we were testing human performance in extreme conditions: inside a space suit furnished with oxygen at about 95 F, with the astronaut in an altitude-temperature chamber whose interior temperature could go as high as 200 F. The flight surgeon insisted on core and skin temperatures, heart rate and to the best we could get it an EKG: this back in the days when medical EKG was only taken from restrained subjects flat on a metal table in a noise-free room. My lab was in an industrial area at Boeing. Since that time the electronics for EKG data have got a lot better, but the sensors for temperatures remain thermistors and thermocouples, and I can tell you that getting an average temperature for a human being in a lab to a tenth of a degree is very difficult. For that matter, getting the temperature inside the experimental chamber was not and still is not trivial. We used “globe”: the temperature of a hollow copper ball about 4 inches in diameter, which takes a measure based on both conductive and radiative temperature. Next time you want to know how hot it is outside, think about how to measure it – now think about getting an average that tells you how hot it is in the city – now the county – now the nation – now the world. How deep in the ocean? How high in the sky? But we have been through all that before.

Here’s Burt Rutan on much the same subject:

    Not a Climatologist’s study; more from the view of a flight test guy who has spent a lifetime in data analysis/interpretation.

    My study is NOT as a climatologist, but from a completely different prospective in which I am an expert.
    Complex data from disparate sources can be processed and presented in very different ways, and to “prove” many different theories.

    For decades, as a professional experimental test engineer, I have analyzed experimental data and watched others massage and present data.  I became a cynic; My conclusion – “if someone is aggressively selling a technical product who’s merits are dependant on complex experimental data, he is likely lying”.  That is true whether the product is an airplane or a Carbon Credit.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/16/burt-rutan-engineer-aviationspace-pioneer-and-climate-skeptic/

All of which takes us out the same door we came in. I do not believe we know enough about climate to bet trillions of dollars on our theories.
 
The idea that we should spend buckets of money "just in case'  ignores the calculation of the Opportunity Cost of such payments.

In order to pay Wind Turbine and Solar Panel operators 80 cents for what costs 3 cents to produce means the money has to come from other parts of the Public Purse.

So should we defund Hospitals and/or Schools to do the "Just in Case" thingy?
 
Haletown said:
The idea that we should spend buckets of money "just in case'  ignores the calculation of the Opportunity Cost of such payments.

In order to pay Wind Turbine and Solar Panel operators 80 cents for what costs 3 cents to produce means the money has to come from other parts of the Public Purse.

So should we defund Hospitals and/or Schools to do the "Just in Case" thingy?

No. Solutions have to be tempered with a measure of economic consideration, quite obviously.
 
Redeye said:
No. Solutions have to be tempered with a measure of economic consideration, quite obviously.

Tell that to ratepayers and taxpayers in Dulton's Greenie Dreamie Ontario.

 
The Great Global Warming Con Job & Ponzi Scam . . . .  explained


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU-_y7GYGO0&feature=player_detailpage
 
Haletown said:
Tell that to ratepayers and taxpayers in Dulton's Greenie Dreamie Ontario.

I'm one of them.

What were you saying, again?
 
Redeye said:
I'm one of them.

What were you saying, again?

Hey if you are happy paying up to 25x the real price for your electricity just so you can feel good because it is "green power", well then all happiness to you.

However I think your happiness may not be shared by a lot of folks or businesses in Ontario, or the overall Ontario economy.

Dulton may be able to hide the real costs of electricity for Ontarions by not putting the full green cost on consumer's bills, but he still has pay the Green producers from General Revenue and that is a Deficit Account.  There is only one payer in the end and that is the people of Ontario and if you/they are happy paying for a lot of Greenie Indulgences then pay away.

Your money, your call.


Makes no difference to me, other than the entertainment value. 




 
Haletown said:
Hey if you are happy paying up to 25x the real price for your electricity just so you can feel good because it is "green power", well then all happiness to you.

However I think your happiness may not be shared by a lot of folks or businesses in Ontario, or the overall Ontario economy.

Dulton may be able to hide the real costs of electricity for Ontarions by not putting the full green cost on consumer's bills, but he still has pay the Green producers from General Revenue and that is a Deficit Account.  There is only one payer in the end and that is the people of Ontario and if you/they are happy paying for a lot of Greenie Indulgences then pay away.

Your money, your call.


Makes no difference to me, other than the entertainment value.

I'm pretty aware of some of the perverse outcomes of some of those plans. I'd like to see Ontario get on with building new nuclear at Darlington, both for environmental reasons, and because I'd like to see the value of property I own there increase, and more good, high-paying jobs coming to Durham Region is excellent. I'm fine with tax incentives to develop green power - we give them for oil and gas development, after all, but I also think they need to be reasonable.
 
Redeye said:
I'm fine with tax incentives to develop green power - we give them for oil and gas development, after all, but I also think they need to be reasonable.

Ahhh that old canard about freebies for  the oil and gas industries . . .  might be true in Greenie Land - it is a good sound bite but just not true.  I h.ear all the time from the likes of Dr. Fruit Fly and the CBC repeats it all the time - but then the CBC isn't into facts that much.

The tax breaks and subsidies for the Oil & Gas exploration industry are pretty much the same ones granted for all industries.  The difference is that Oil & gas are profitable industries and pay EXTRA amounts into the public purse that subsidized  greenie industries don't.



"In this paper, we conclude that oil and gas investments generally bear a higher tax and royalty
burden than do investments in other industries,"

http://www.policyschool.ucalgary.ca/files/publicpolicy/mintz3.pdf
 
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