• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread

It is always nice to have these debates with real numbers: David Suzuki without vs the Canadian Manufacturers society with.....

http://hespeler.blogspot.com/

Kyoto Economics: The Cost to Canada - Part 1

The second Canadian Kyoto report I looked at was Pain Without Gain: Canada and the Kyoto Protocol by the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters. This one is the polar opposite of yesterdays Suzuki Foundation report, with very pessimistic, although I think far more realistic, conclusions. This report looks at Kyoto from an industry perspective almost exclusively.

It runs on a couple of base assumptions, Number one that to meet Kyoto goals energy consumption would have to decrease 4.5%/year between 2002 and 2010 - 48.6% over the 8 year period. That number assumes high amount of carbon credit purchasing. If energy use reduction is done "through domestic action alone" (i.e. no carbon purchasing), as Suzuki's report suggested was preferable and likely, then the rate of energy reduction would be 7.8/year, or 82.35% over the same 8 year period. Finally, they take the assumed range of the cost of carbon to be between $7 and $120 per tonne (at 90 mega tonnes that's between $840 million and $14.4 billion). true carbon cost is likely to be $40-$50 range, giving a true cost range of $3.6- $4.5 billion.

They also make two strong points. One, any carbon reductions due to job losses aren't true net reductions because the jobs would move, increasing carbon somewhere else. Possibly they would move to a regime with less economic regulation causing a drop in Canada's carbon release, but an increase globally. The second point is that Canada already produces 80% of it's electricity from clean sources. Many countries can change over from coal to hydro, nuclear or natural gas and achieve huge carbon savings. Canada does not have that option because a vast majority of our electrical production is already from clean sources:

    Canada is more energy-intensive but less carbon0intensive than other OECD economies because of its low reliance on coal. One of the least expensive ways of reducing GHG emissions is by switching from coal to natural gas, especially in the generation of electricity.

Even energy conservation measures would have very low impact because we are just conserving energy that is produced clean. This means even more of our carbon reductions must come from other sources. The report suggests a 10%-100% increase in the price of electricity, depending on province, with Alberta and Ontario being hardest hit, likely due to their increased reliance on coal. However, any increase in electricity prices would likely cause a importing of energy from the U.S. (and investment and jobs with it), that again causes Canada to off load carbon to other countries, but not reduce emissions globally:

    Higher electricity costs in deregulated markets would lead to a displacement of electricity generation to less expensive jurisdictions, and most likely the displacement of emissions, investment, and jobs to the United States.

In the world of gasoline, they predict a rise in the price of gasoline, in the magnitude of 80% - to $1.10 litre. Hey we're paying that now, without reducing our carbon footprint very much. I will get into my projections in a few days, but do not expect to meet Kyoto targets below $1.50 a litre, and I think that's low! Also, bear in mind that raising gas prices causes people to A) drive less or B) buy more fuel efficient vehicles. Option B is the most likely scenario, but it takes years
to work through the system: we are talking about a 2010-2012 time frame. Remember that when Stephane Dion says he can get it done in three years, even if all the components were put in place today, it will take 5-10 years for many of the processes to be effective.

The study also expects lower demand for gasoline will cause 2,000 service stations to close across Canada (all the better to compete with, my dear), and the closing of two refineries. This is where it gets interesting; those refineries would be, according to The Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, in Ontario and Quebec or the Maritimes. Whenever some politician starts attacking the oil patch, remember the first jobs to go will be in Ontario and Eastern Canada. This makes intuitive sense, as you would expect the jobs farthest from the oil to be the most expendable, especially when you factor in the increased cost of transportation.

The study also expects steel and auto production to be hard hit (Ontario again), with an 8.2% reduction in auto production vs. business as usual projections. Furthermore an economy wide hit of 450,000 jobs is projected, many of them, of course, on Ontario and Alberta. Furthermore, it concludes, Canadians would:


    Drive less, drive smaller cars or take public transit that would, in turn, require massive infrastructure spending on the part of government.

    Re-insulate our homes, change our furnaces, windows and appliances - at a cost that would probably average about $30,000 per household.

    Pay more taxes...

I like the bit about 30,000 per household. Wonder what the polls would say if we asked "should Canada enforce Kyoto compliance if it means a $30,000 per household investment in upgrading your home?"

Kyoto Economics: The Cost to Canada - Part 1
I have reviewed three Canadian papers on Kyoto to try and get a gauge of what implementing Kyoto would mean. Previously I looked at Germany and Europe, and have taken some of that analysis into my figuring on the Canadian situation.

The first paper I looked at was The Suzuki foundation's Keeping Canada in Kyoto. Suzuki modestly predicts a 300M cost to Canada from Kyoto implementation, and even hopefully offers up one study that suggests a 2B benefit to Canadians. He further makes some claims, such as global warming has already cost Canada $5B in agricultural losses due to a 2001 drought in Western Canada, and potential loss due to forest fires, timber loss, even perma-frost melting destabilizing pipelines.

Suzuki, however, makes many claims and backs none of it up. On top of that, this Suzuki Foundation analysis rests upon a couple of false assumptions. First that Canada will be making real reductions, not just buying carbon:
The federal government has frequently and publicly declared that Canada will make the majority of its emission reductions through domestic action. This ensures that the reductions will be real and not just "hot air" purchased internationally.

However, how Canada can reduce 600 Megatonnes without purchasing carbon, and still be in business, is never explained. In fact, Canada is likely to buy huge amounts of carbon. Which leads us to Suzuki's second bad assumption, that carbon will trade around $10 per tonne. The European Studies I reviewed two weeks ago suggested that carbon was moving into the $40-$60/ton range. Even the economic report that people like Suzuki adore, the new testament of environmental economics, The Stern report, calls for $30-$50 ton, which means Suzuki's numbers on buying (had the report deemed it important enough to actually include numbers) are off by a factor of somewhere between 3 and 6. Further his claim that the majority of our reductions will be through domestic reduction means his numbers, whatever they may be, are skewed to the low side before we factor in price. Which means, it's hard to take the conclusions very seriously. Here they are, however:
With carbon dioxide valued at $10 per tonne, emissions reduction measures for specific sectors and an emission trading system for large fossil fuel users, the following economic impacts are forecast:

the Canadian economy grows by 30.4 per cent by 2012, from $1 trillion to $1.315 trillion

the Ontario economy grows by 35 per cent; $426.6 billion to $575.9 billion.

the Alberta economy grows by 35 per cent, from $118 billion to $150 billion

the oil and gas sectors grow by 24.6 per cent

machinery and equipment manufacturing grows by 65.7 per cent

transportation equipment grows by 28.3 per cent

electrical and electronic components grow by 47.8 per cent.

But what's never even close to explained is how Canada is going to be the first economy ever to dramatically reduce energy use, and dramatically expand the economy. And make no mistake, Canada has very few options for meeting it's Kyoto commitment without dramatically contracting it's energy use, both in electrical conservation and, far more specifically, petroleum products. Even using Suzuki's base assumptions of $10/tonne for CO2, and a $30 million cost to Kyoto, that would buy 1/3rd of the required reduction. The other 60 megatons will have to come from conservation, and that calculation doesn't allow for any cost during the conservation of 60 MT of CO2. More likely, Suzuki plans on a reduction of upwards of 90%, 80 MT of CO2. You can't make those kinds of reductions without hurting the economy. Or at least, it's never been done before.

And that's why this report is hard to take seriously. Without any true documentation it comes across as pie-in-the-sky economics.
 
Interesting and very well researched documentary on the subject, recently aired by Channel 4 (UK): <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9005566792811497638&hl=en/">The Great Global Warming Swindle.</a>  It's long (1:15), but well worth it, particularly if you are under the rather misguided notion that 2,500 of the world's leading climate scientists signed off on the recent IPCC report.
 
What people forget is that the global warming theology is based on consensus and not science, otherwise there would be no debate. Global warming to me is just an excuse for new taxes and would severely impact industry.
 
I_am_John

Thankyou for that!  Confirms everything I have ever believed about (you know what)

The conclusion was particularly compelling.
Limiting industrial growth in the developing world
consigns the people in it, to the stone age.

I did some work for a missionary who added solar lighting to a clinic -
just like the one at the end of the clip.
One Honda generator would solve all of the problems at once.
No doubt about it - solar lighting will save lives at this clinic.
A small generator would save more.

What will they do while we're working on this miracle of "sustainable" energy?





 
Already we are seeing stories about the threat of ethanol.Frankly I think these people are against technology and would love to cripple our economy.
 
Flip,

Having Africans use their precious money to buy wind generators and solar panels is cruel. It should be the oil companies that are told to invest in this technology.

 
eerickso said:
Flip,

Having Africans use their precious money to buy wind generators and solar panels is cruel. It should be the oil companies that are told to invest in this technology.

"Told" by whom, the vanguard of the proletariat?  ::)
 
Here is the future if our politicians pander to the global warming crowd.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/11/ngreen11.xml

Cameron considers tax hikes on air travel
By Melissa Kite and Patrick Hennessy, Sunday Telegraph

Harsh new taxes on air travel, including a strict personal flight "allowance", will be unveiled by the Conservatives tomorrow as part of a plan that would penalise business travellers, holidaymakers and the tourist industry.

The proposals, to be disclosed by George Osborne, the shadow chancellor, include levying VAT or fuel duty on domestic flights for the first time as part of a radical plan to tackle global warming.

The Conservatives will also suggest - most controversially of all - rationing individuals to as little as a single short-haul flight each year; any further journeys would attract progressively higher taxes, a leaked document entitled Greener Skies suggests.

The Tories' radical green taxes form one of the most ambitious programmes ever put forward by a mainstream political party. But they sparked an immediate war with Labour last night, while the travel industry branded them a "tax on fun".

In a further departure from Tory tradition, the party will underline its green credentials by welcoming Al Gore, the Democrat former US vice-president, to a meeting of the shadow cabinet on Thursday.

Mr Osborne's document will list a series of far-reaching, though uncosted, green tax proposals the proceeds of which will be ploughed into tax cuts "for the family", said a Conservative source.

Among the proposals, which the Tories insist are options for consultation, are:
Charging fuel duty or VAT on domestic flights. The document notes that there are "no legal barriers" to introducing either levy and adds: "We have pledged that any additional revenues from environmental taxes that we propose at the next election will be offset by equivalent reductions in other forms of taxation."

Replacing the £10 to £80 Air Passenger Duty with a per-flight tax levied on airlines which would penalise the dirtiest engines the hardest.

A personal "green air miles allowance" which would punish those who flew more often with a higher tax rate.

The document states: "For example, everyone could be entitled to one short-haul return flight per year at the standard rate of tax, but additional flights would be charged at a higher rate."

The leaked paper claims: "We need to find a policy approach whose side effect is not to make air travel the preserve of the better off." It also reveals fears that public support for additional environmental taxes on aviation would be undermined if it was interpreted simply as a means of increasing total tax revenues. There is a danger that increases in the cost of flights may put air travel out of the reach of those on low incomes, it admits.

Mr Osborne told The Sunday Telegraph: "This demonstrates that we are prepared to take the tough, long-term decisions necessary to tackle climate change and back up green rhetoric with action."

The policy announcement comes only a week before Gordon Brown's Budget, stealing a march on green tax measures he is expected to disclose. This week the Government will launch its long-awaited Climate Change Bill, which will set out the economic case for taking action on global warming.

A Tory source said the idea was to punish dirtier aircraft and frequent fliers, not "once-a-year package holidays".

However, the plans were denounced last night as a "tax on hard working families" and a "tax on fun". A spokesman for the British Air Transport Association, which includes British Airways, BMI and Virgin, said: "These proposals would threaten to decimate the airline industry, the hundreds of thousands of jobs it supports. They would put at risk the UK's position as the global transport hub and our links with the rest of the world.

"They would tax hard working families out of the sky all for the sake of tackling 0.1 per cent of the world's CO2 emissions."

Opponents said it was hard to see how the average family or business person could stay within the proposed flying "allowance".

A Labour source said: "These policies would raise vast amounts of extra revenue and impose a hugely complex tax regime, but with no discernible impact on global emissions from air travel. The Tories have had two years to come up with a coherent policy on green taxes, and it beggars belief that this is the result."

Frances Tuke, of the Association of British Travel Agents, said: "Any tax will put a dampener on fun. Passengers don't want to be unfairly taxed."

The plan was welcomed by green campaigners. Martyn Williams, of Friends of the Earth, said: "It's important someone is looking at this because we are expecting the Government to leave out CO2 emission targets for international flights in this week's Climate Change Bill."
 
eerickso said:
Flip,
Having Africans use their precious money to buy wind generators and solar panels is cruel. It should be the oil companies that are told to invest in this technology.

Our little Ugandan lighting project took a year and cost the Africans nothing.

New technology takes time - and a donor.
How many of the two billion waiting for this technology will die?
Really, Just let the developing world, develop without "climate change" interference
will let the oil companies do some actual good.

If you want to consider what the major perils on earth are (environmental and human)
It ALWAYS comes back to poverty.  The only cure for poverty is prosperity.

The environmental movements ( which I consider relatively socialist ) would love to knock us ALL back to 1700.  They don't get ( or care ) that it would probably exterminate a large proportion of humanity.

If I said that socialism was obscene in this context, I think many of you would agree.
 
Frances Tuke, of the Association of British Travel Agents, said: "Any tax will put a dampener on fun. Passengers don't want to be unfairly taxed."

The plan was welcomed by green campaigners. Martyn Williams, of Friends of the Earth, said: "It's important someone is looking at this because we are expecting the Government to leave out CO2 emission targets for international flights in this week's Climate Change Bill."

Mr. Williams then went on to explain that concerned Friends of the Earth could contribute to the campaign by purchasing specially hand-crafted scourges. These scourges, replete with FOTE embossed in the links and on the handles, have been recently acquired from the same sources that supply the Shia Pilgrims at Karbala and Najaf.  Guaranteed to bloody your back at every stroke.  Proof positive to your discerning neighbours of your devotion to the cause.  With every purchase of two scourges FOTE will throw in a free hair shirt.  A family set of four will be accompanied by a signed copy of "An Inconvenient Truth".


Buy your genuine FOTE-Shia scourge and contribute to both the Global Warming campaign and the campaign to make Iraq AND the west mediaeval......  Limited time offer.




The only thing I can think of to turn this tide is to make it well known that the IPCC was Maggie Thatcher's idea.   I can't see the Trots of the Red-Green movement cheering anything that had Maggie's face attached to it.

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, Oi, Oi, Oi.


The other bizarre thing I thought I picked up from the documentary was it seems the number of Experts on the IPCC is decreasing - from 2500 to 1000 - unless I misremember.  At this rate it shouldn't take very long at all before "THE ONE" emerges.

 
Kirkhill,

When the latest IPCC report was published a comment writer in the Edmonton Sun
noted that the wording of each report was more moderate as time went by.
Over time the word certainly was replaced by most probably and so on.
She noted that in a few years it might say "no problem at all"

I love the scourge idea - a museum piece - I would keep it next to my copy
of Mao's little red book.

In the film I noticed several communist era flags and individuals coming
dangerously close to "incitement".

In time the whole thing will blow itself out.
Last night Passionate Eye on CBC featured 5 ways to save the planet.
Technical means to reverse Global warming.
One idea looked like fitting the earth with contact lenses, another was
synthetic trees.  The weirdest stuff on CBC ever - I'm sure.

But I am SURE and without doubt that we( all of humanity ) will cause more damage
to the environment, trying to control global warming than by any other single means.


 
In today's National Post: <a href="http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=551bfe58-882f-4889-ab76-5ce1e02dced7">Bright sun, warm Earth. Coincidence?</a>
Lorne Gunter, National Post
Published: Monday, March 12, 2007

Mars's ice caps are melting, and Jupiter is developing a second giant red spot, an enormous hurricane-like storm.

The existing Great Red Spot is 300 years old and twice the size of Earth. The new storm -- Red Spot Jr. -- is thought to be the result of a sudden warming on our solar system's largest planet. Dr. Imke de Pater of Berkeley University says some parts of Jupiter are now as much as six degrees Celsius warmer than just a few years ago.

Neptune's moon, Triton, studied in 1989 after the unmanned Voyageur probe flew past, seems to have heated up significantly since then. Parts of its frozen nitrogen surface have begun melting and turning to gas, making Triton's atmosphere denser.

Even Pluto has warmed slightly in recent years, if you can call -230C instead of -233C "warmer."

And I swear, I haven't left my SUV idling on any of those planets or moons. Honest, I haven't.

Is there something all these heavenly bodies have in common? Some one thing they all share that could be causing them to warm in unison?

Hmmm, is there some giant, self-luminous ball of burning gas with a mass more than 300,000 times that of Earth and a core temperature of more than 20-million degrees Celsius, that for the past century or more has been unusually active and powerful? Is there something like that around which they all revolve that could be causing this multi-globe warming? Naw!

...

At the very least, the fact that so many prominent scientists have legitimate, logical objections to the current global warming orthodoxy means there is no "consensus" among scientists about the cause. ...
 
While Al Gore consumes more energy than an average city block (Three mansions, and a private jet to spread the word about Global Warming.....) another politician lives rather differently (and below the MSM radar apparently)

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/02/is_george_bush.php

Only your dispassionate Canadian correspondent could write this without colour or favour, but is it possible that George Bush is a secret Green? Evidently his Crawford Winter White House has 25,000 gallons of rainwater storage, gray water collection from sinks and showers for irrigation, passive solar, geothermal heating and cooling. “By marketplace standards, the house is startlingly small,” says David Heymann, the architect of the 4,000-square-foot home. “Clients of similar ilk are building 16-to-20,000-square-foot houses.” Furthermore for thermal mass the walls are clad in "discards of a local stone called Leuders limestone, which is quarried in the area. The 12-to-18-inch-thick stone has a mix of colors on the top and bottom, with a cream- colored center that most people want. “They cut the top and bottom of it off because nobody really wants it,” Heymann says. “So we bought all this throwaway stone. It’s fabulous. It’s got great color and it is relatively inexpensive.” Hmm, back to that vote about the Greenest President? ::off Grid via ::EcoRazzi
 
For those who really enjoy science, the attached link is to a BBC documentary on Global Warming that is just outstanding.

Warning - It is 1 hour and 13 minutes long and so I'd advise all to do what I just did and make sure you have a good reserve of your favourite drink and snack before you watch it....but trust me, it's outstanding.

I'll look forward to comments....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4520665474899458831&q=the+great+global+warming+swindle


Cheers,  Matthew.  :salute:
 
Cdn Blackshirt,

I posted that video in the <a href="http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/46854/post-540551.html#msg540551">Al Gore vs. Arithmetic</a> thread, and there's been some discussion of it already there ....

Cheers
 
Way ahead of me again....  ;)

Sorry, I've been on the road for a couple of weeks non-stop.  I'll go check the other thread.


Matthew.  :salute:
 
The other thing that's kind of funny is the anti-air travel lobby (marxist, socialist, anti-west, etc.), is that they ignore the positive impact of contrails as a weather moderating force.  That is, they do act as blanket and reduce daytime highs while increasing nighttime lows (the true impact of this was only discovered in the days after 09/11 when all the planes were grounded and comparison was done).


Matthew.  :salute:
 
The EU is already considering "rationing" air travel. Of course there would be exceptions for important people....... ::)
 
Leaading scientists in this field agree that Gore overstated and was even plain wrong in some parts of his film. They also agree that global warming is a fact, only question is how much warming is going on and how can we slow the rate of warming.


Climate change a 'questionable truth', G&M
http://tinyurl.com/yoyt9g
 













 
Something to deflect those annoying Solar warming deniers!

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/index.html

Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says
Kate Ravilious
for National Geographic News
February 28, 2007

Simultaneous warming on Earth and Mars suggests that our planet's recent climate changes have a natural—and not a human-induced—cause, according to one scientist's controversial theory.

Earth is currently experiencing rapid warming, which the vast majority of climate scientists says is due to humans pumping huge amounts of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. (Get an overview: "Global Warming Fast Facts".)

Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures.

In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row.

Habibullo Abdussamatov, head of space research at St. Petersburg's Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia, says the Mars data is evidence that the current global warming on Earth is being caused by changes in the sun.

"The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars," he said.

Solar Cycles

Abdussamatov believes that changes in the sun's heat output can account for almost all the climate changes we see on both planets.

Mars and Earth, for instance, have experienced periodic ice ages throughout their histories.

"Man-made greenhouse warming has made a small contribution to the warming seen on Earth in recent years, but it cannot compete with the increase in solar irradiance," Abdussamatov said.

By studying fluctuations in the warmth of the sun, Abdussamatov believes he can see a pattern that fits with the ups and downs in climate we see on Earth and Mars.

Abdussamatov's work, however, has not been well received by other climate scientists.

"His views are completely at odds with the mainstream scientific opinion," said Colin Wilson, a planetary physicist at England's Oxford University.

"And they contradict the extensive evidence presented in the most recent IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] report." (Related: "Global Warming 'Very Likely' Caused by Humans, World Climate Experts Say" [February 2, 2007].)


Amato Evan, a climate scientist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, added that "the idea just isn't supported by the theory or by the observations."

Planets' Wobbles

The conventional theory is that climate changes on Mars can be explained primarily by small alterations in the planet's orbit and tilt, not by changes in the sun.

"Wobbles in the orbit of Mars are the main cause of its climate change in the current era," Oxford's Wilson explained. (Related: "Don't Blame Sun for Global Warming, Study Says" [September 13, 2006].)

All planets experience a few wobbles as they make their journey around the sun. Earth's wobbles are known as Milankovitch cycles and occur on time scales of between 20,000 and 100,000 years.

These fluctuations change the tilt of Earth's axis and its distance from the sun and are thought to be responsible for the waxing and waning of ice ages on Earth.

Mars and Earth wobble in different ways, and most scientists think it is pure coincidence that both planets are between ice ages right now.

"Mars has no [large] moon, which makes its wobbles much larger, and hence the swings in climate are greater too," Wilson said.

No Greenhouse

Perhaps the biggest stumbling block in Abdussamatov's theory is his dismissal of the greenhouse effect, in which atmospheric gases such as carbon dioxide help keep heat trapped near the planet's surface.

He claims that carbon dioxide has only a small influence on Earth's climate and virtually no influence on Mars.

But "without the greenhouse effect there would be very little, if any, life on Earth, since our planet would pretty much be a big ball of ice," said Evan, of the University of Wisconsin.

Most scientists now fear that the massive amount of carbon dioxide humans are pumping into the air will lead to a catastrophic rise in Earth's temperatures, dramatically raising sea levels as glaciers melt and leading to extreme weather worldwide.

Abdussamatov remains contrarian, however, suggesting that the sun holds something quite different in store.

"The solar irradiance began to drop in the 1990s, and a minimum will be reached by approximately 2040," Abdussamatov said. "It will cause a steep cooling of the climate on Earth in 15 to 20 years."
 
Back
Top