George Floyd/ Derek Chauvin Thread

[Haggis]

Yes, for some cops who are a little overzealous. And not saying that all cops or the majority of cops are such.

Given what I pointed out earlier about the aims of use of force training, when a subject's behavior escalates and the officer responds, how and when would you perceive the response to be  disproportionate? Who is at fault? Who decides that?

 

[Donald H]

Given what I pointed out earlier about the aims of use of force training, when a subject's behavior escalates and the officer responds, how and when would you perceive the response to be  disproportionate? Who is at fault? Who decides that?

In actual fact Haggis, we all decide. But we citizens of Canada may decide differently from how Americans decide. For instance, for the unarmed black man who was shot in the back 7 times, I'm deciding that was excessive use of lethal force. And I'm not unaware of the fact that my opinion holds no more water than anybody's opinion.

So I'm saying, the official opinion that will inevitably find that cop not guilty of any crime, is wrong. Their justice system is all fuddle duddled up.

You see Haggis, that's the political fight we fight. One side believes that America has been slaughtering black people for many years, based on the whims of cops. While the other side believes that all the black people had it coming.

 

[brihard]

In actual fact Haggis, we all decide. But we citizens of Canada may decide differently from how Americans decide. For instance, for the unarmed black man who was shot in the back 7 times, I'm deciding that was excessive use of lethal force. And I'm not unaware of the fact that my opinion holds no more water than anybody's opinion.

So I'm saying, the official opinion that will inevitably find that cop not guilty of any crime, is wrong. Their justice system is all fuddle duddled up.

You see Haggis, that's the political fight we fight. One side believes that America has been slaughtering black people for many years, based on the whims of cops. While the other side believes that all the black people had it coming.

In identical circumstances it's highly likely that our justice system would also not convict police officers who did the same thing. A suspect who is wanted for sexual assault and breach of conditions, has already been subjected to arrest, has physically fought police, has been tasered without success, who is armed with a knife, and who goes to and reaches into a car can very easily hit the threshold for an officer perceiving a threat of death or grievous bodily harm. Police aren't expected to allow someone to access a weapon before stopping them, and a suspect's prior actions can absolutely inform their assessment of risk. You might be interested to read R v. Pompeo. http://canlii.ca/t/grs3x In this case, a police officer was acquitted (after appeal) of aggravated assault after shooting a suspect who did not have a weapon evident, but kept reaching as if to access one. The suspect's history as known the officer absolutely informed the reasonableness of his decision. Unless you're ready to talk about Section 25 of the Criminal Code (or S. 34 for that matter) from at least a modestly informed perspective, I'm going to suggest you're out of your depth on this one.

One big difference between the Canadian and American systems is that the route to suspend/fire and charge police is typically a bit longer and involves more legal rigour up here. There's less reflexive, politically-motivated charging of police because the law does not lend itself as easily to doing so.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And anyone who thinks that man should have been allowed to get into a car containing 3 young innocent children, with his only intent on escaping somehow, isn't worth the time to debate anyways.  IMO of course....

 

[Haggis]

In actual fact Haggis, we all decide.

  A trial in the court of public opinion?

But we citizens of Canada may decide differently from how Americans decide.

As we should, given our different laws and expectations of our respective police.  But it's still an uninformed opinion coloured by what the media shows us what "acceptable conduct" is in their eyes.  I really enjoy watching news media personalities participating in police use of force scenario training to get a better understanding of the dynamics an officer faces when making the decision to respond.

For instance, for the unarmed black man who was shot in the back 7 times, I'm deciding that was excessive use of lethal force.

  Multiple media outlets and investigators have reported that Blake was armed with a knife and that a knife was recovered at the scene.  Video footage shows Blake carrying an object in his hand prior to being shot.

So I'm saying, the official opinion that will inevitably find that cop not guilty of any crime, is wrong.

  Again, you are presupposing that he did everything right, as postulated by his lawyer.  That he used an authorized technique to control Mr. Floyd and that he applied that technique only for the amount of time required to gain and maintain control of Mr. Floyd.  In my opinion, given the video evidence out there, that will be a tough sell.

 

[Donald H]

  Multiple media outlets and investigators have reported that Blake was armed with a knife and that a knife was recovered at the scene.  Video footage shows Blake carrying an object in his hand prior to being shot.

All of the information I've received from the media is saying that he had a knife hidden under a floor mat. Do you have a link for the story that he had something in his hand.

I'm interested in pursuing the question with you in a polite manner.

 

[Eaglelord17]

All of the information I've received from the media is saying that he had a knife hidden under a floor mat. Do you have a link for the story that he had something in his hand.

I'm interested in pursuing the question with you in a polite manner.

This is why cops don't let you get back in your vehicle without permission. The price has already been paid in the blood of police officers. Whether or not there is even a knife is irrelevant. Cars are a weapon, guns are a weapon, knives are a weapon. You don't know what they have and what they are going to do, and it isn't up to them to die to find out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mssNOhv1UMc

 

[Donald H]

This is why cops don't let you get back in your vehicle without permission. The price has already been paid in the blood of police officers. Whether or not there is even a knife is irrelevant. Cars are a weapon, guns are a weapon, knives are a weapon. You don't know what they have and what they are going to do, and it isn't up to them to die to find out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mssNOhv1UMc

I watched your video and the one that followed it. off topic: I'm opposed to capital punishment.

back on topic: He was a white man and so the protracted reluctance to use deadly force. Not to minimize the danger to police officers or to fail to understand your point.

 

[brihard]

I watched your video and the one that followed it. off topic: I'm opposed to capital punishment.

back on topic: He was a white man and so the protracted reluctance to use deadly force. Not to minimize the danger to police officers or to fail to understand your point.

Capital punishment? What are you talking about?

Police are not required to let the other guy take the first shot or even have an opportunity to. There is no legal or moral obligation on a police officer to accept the risk of bodily harm in order to let a suspect safety resist arrest.

You’ve ignored several of my replies now. Why is that?

 

[Donald H]

Capital punishment? What are you talking about?

Check out the video that follows the first one. If it doesn't come up and deal with capital punishment related to the first video then let me know. Utube videos often play to their audience.

Police are not required to let the other guy take the first shot or even have an opportunity to. There is no legal or moral obligation on a police officer to accept the risk of bodily harm in order to let a suspect safety resist arrest.

Agreed.

You’ve ignored several of my replies now. Why is that?

The traffic is hard to keep up with but I find that there are usually two or three members that are replying the same and so I'll attempt to answer just one. Sorry if I've missed something important to you.

:cheers:

 

[Jarnhamar]

Capital punishment? What are you talking about?

Seems like part of a game doesn't it?

The best interrogators I've seen aren't the mean phone book to your face types. They're the polite amiable, slightly awkward ones who draw you into a conversation by making mistakes and drawing on your natural inclination to correct said obvious mistakes. Playing the fool so to speak. Throw in some random questions, comments or topics so their intentions don't seem obvious.

 

[brihard]

Check out the video that follows the first one. If it doesn't come up and deal with capital punishment related to the first video then let me know. Utube videos often play to their audience.

Agreed.

The traffic is hard to keep up with but I find that there are usually two or three members that are replying the same and so I'll attempt to answer just one. Sorry if I've missed something important to you.

:cheers:

No, the conversation’s on police use of force, not randomly queued videos in YouTube. I’ll pass, thanks.

You’re all over the place here, but what’s consistent is that your understanding of the law underpinning police use of force on both sides of the border is lacking. I laid out my objections with a fair bit of detail a few posts up and referred to one court case in Canada that’s quite informative.

 

[Donald H]

No, the conversation’s on police use of force, not randomly queued videos in YouTube. I’ll pass, thanks.

You’re all over the place here, but what’s consistent is that your understanding of the law underpinning police use of force on both sides of the border is lacking. I laid out my objections with a fair bit of detail a few posts up and referred to one court case in Canada that’s quite informative.

Just two points to make with you Brihard.
1. Police use of deadly force in the US is far out of proportion to that in Canada.
2. The contrast between the use of deadly force on black people in America to white people has been amply illustrated here.

:cheers:

 

[Good2Golf]

Just two points to make with you Brihard.
1. Police use of deadly force in the US is far out of proportion to that in Canada.
2. The contrast between the use of deadly force on black people in America to white people has been amply illustrated here.

:cheers:

1.  Is that one of your opinions Donald, or are the reference figures to support your statement?

2.  Amply?  In any detail?  Proportional? Absolute?  Just what it appears media covers?

:cheers:

 

[brihard]

Just two points to make with you Brihard.
1. Police use of deadly force in the US is far out of proportion to that in Canada.
2. The contrast between the use of deadly force on black people in America to white people has been amply illustrated here.

:cheers:

You shifted several times to talking about Canada. That’s what I replied to.

 

[Haggis]

1. Police use of deadly force in the US is far out of proportion to that in Canada.

The use of deadly force against police is out of proportion in the US as well.  Thanks to their Second Amendment, a police officer has to assume that every US citizen they encounter may be armed as of right.

2. The contrast between the use of deadly force on black people in America to white people has been amply illustrated here.

Actually, statistics paint a different picture with more Whites being killed by police than Blacks over the past three years.

 

[brihard]

Actually, r statistics paint a different picture with more Whites being killed by police than Blacks over the past three years.

:cheers:

That stat is overall, not per capita. As whites vastly outnumber blacks in the States, when you look at that on a per capita basis, blacks are far more likely to be shot by police than Whites.

I’m not opining as to why that’s the case, nor on whether there’s disproportionality on justified shoots, merely pointing out that in terms of who as an individual is more likely to be shot by police, that’s skews heavily against the black population.

 

[Haggis]

That stat is overall, not per capita. As whites vastly outnumber blacks in the States, when you look at that on a per capita basis, blacks are far more likely to be shot by police than Whites.

A good point, Brihard, which adds context that I should have included.

I’m not opining as to why that’s the case, nor on whether there’s disproportionality on justified shoots, merely pointing out that in terms of who as an individual is more likely to be shot by police, that’s skews heavily against the black population.

The problem being faced now is that so many officer involved shootings with a Black victim are deemed unjustified by the press, public and politicians that it may lead to more LEO deaths as LEOs become even more reluctant to use lethal force for fear of losing their livelihoods and/or freedom.

 

[Jarnhamar]

That stat is overall, not per capita. As whites vastly outnumber blacks in the States, when you look at that on a per capita basis, blacks are far more likely to be shot by police than Whites.

I’m not opining as to why that’s the case, nor on whether there’s disproportionality on justified shoots, merely pointing out that in terms of who as an individual is more likely to be shot by police, that’s skews heavily against the black population.

Do you happen to know what race is responsible for the most shootings of cops in the US? I wasn't able to find any stats on it.

 

[GAP]

That stat is overall, not per capita. As whites vastly outnumber blacks in the States, when you look at that on a per capita basis, blacks are far more likely to be shot by police than Whites.

I’m not opining as to why that’s the case, nor on whether there’s disproportionality on justified shoots, merely pointing out that in terms of who as an individual is more likely to be shot by police, that’s skews heavily against the black population.

Maybe proportionaly they are up to no good more so than the whites.......