GEO TECH: Better as engineers or as int?

[PanaEng]

missed this nugget:

The other two reserve roles – augmentation and footprint in the community – have proved their worth. Our army is simply too small to be able to fill all its needs using the regular forces, and the reserves are an important reservoir of critical skills from combat to civil-military co-operation, public affairs, logistics and geomatics.

We don't have Geomatics capabilities in our reserve CER's. We have the positions; people have filled them, but we still lack a sanctioned Reserve QL3 or DP1/DP2 for them. That has been "in the works" for over 5 yrs and many good people have left due to the 'limbo' status.

Correction, we do have a few retired Geo techs but there is no equipment for them...

Chimo!

 

[George Wallace]

missed this nugget:
We don't have Geomatics capabilities in our reserve CER's. We have the positions; people have filled them, but we still lack a sanctioned Reserve QL3 or DP1/DP2 for them. That has been "in the works" for over 5 yrs and many good people have left due to the 'limbo' status.

Correction, we do have a few retired Geo techs but there is no equipment for them...

Chimo!

What was Capt Smith working with then?

 

[PanaEng]

What was Capt Smith working with then?

There used to be a section + pers of which only 2 were qualified Reg Geo Tech, now there is only one, WO, retired and now Class A. They have a couple of computers, printers, laminator but not the req horsepower to run the SW and no licences for the SW required. I don't think we have anyone in those positions as the Capt is now with the Adm Sqn, and the WO is the SSM. We could provide some support if required but it would involve the pulling of strings and favours.
(as far as I know)

cheers,
Frank

 

[Captsapper@gmail.com]

There were a number of very interested and dedicated soldiers that were involved with the LFRR trial of the Geomatics trade in the PRes.  Basically as time marched on and all of these soldiers career's were somewhat in limbo without an official trade designation or courses.  They watched as their peer's from their previous trades marched on by in courses, rank, and training opportunities.  Eventually all of them either released or went back to their original trades and continued continued their careers.

It is an excellent trade and the people that were involved were all very dedicated, from speaking with them it appeared that the larger institution did not have the same view as them,  Not saying that it was the case but it was the impression that they expressed.  For example, they were always trying to make due with minimal equipment,  to the point that if a system went down they were ineffective as they only had one.  Quite simply it is a very hardware and software intensive trade and that takes significant resources which never seemed to be delivered.

Chimo!

 

[George Wallace]

There used to be a section + pers of which only 2 were qualified Reg Geo Tech, now there is only one, WO, retired and now Class A. They have a couple of computers, printers, laminator but not the req horsepower to run the SW and no licences for the SW required. I don't think we have anyone in those positions as the Capt is now with the Adm Sqn, and the WO is the SSM. We could provide some support if required but it would involve the pulling of strings and favours.
(as far as I know)

cheers,
Frank

There were a number of very interested and dedicated soldiers that were involved with the LFRR trial of the Geomatics trade in the PRes.  Basically as time marched on and all of these soldiers career's were somewhat in limbo without an official trade designation or courses.  They watched as their peer's from their previous trades marched on by in courses, rank, and training opportunities.  Eventually all of them either released or went back to their original trades and continued continued their careers.

It is an excellent trade and the people that were involved were all very dedicated, from speaking with them it appeared that the larger institution did not have the same view as them,  Not saying that it was the case but it was the impression that they expressed.  For example, they were always trying to make due with minimal equipment,  to the point that if a system went down they were ineffective as they only had one.  Quite simply it is a very hardware and software intensive trade and that takes significant resources which never seemed to be delivered.

Chimo!

Like the Imagery people at CFJIC, I think that this Trade should be taken out of the Engr realm and put into the INT realm where they would find quite a bit more work and probably better career advancement.

 

[McG]

... I think that this Trade should be ...

"Trade" implies an NCM occupation.  Are you talking about an MOS or an ocupional specialty qualification?

 

[Edward Campbell]

Like the Imagery people at CFJIC, I think that this Trade should be taken out of the Engr realm and put into the INT realm where they would find quite a bit more work and probably better career advancement.

Geographic intelligence is, traditionally, an engineer function because, by and large, only engineers have the right mix of education and training: at the officer and NCM levels. I had the pleasure, some years ago, of working with some of our geographic specialists and I was mightily impressed with the scope and depth of the work. It is a highly specialized field and, in my opinion belongs with the specialists.

 

[George Wallace]

"Trade" implies an NCM occupation.  Are you talking about an MOS or an ocupional specialty qualification?

Ah!  You got me.  I would say the Occupation Specialty Qualification of Geo Technician,  MOC 142 MOSID 00238.

 

[George Wallace]

Geographic intelligence is, traditionally, an engineer function because, by and large, only engineers have the right mix of education and training: at the officer and NCM levels. I had the pleasure, some years ago, of working with some of our geographic specialists and I was mightily impressed with the scope and depth of the work. It is a highly specialized field and, in my opinion belongs with the specialists.

Yes they are a very specialized group of people, who quite often sit right in a G2 and do their work.  This is why, if this is where they will most often be employed in a BG or Bde, I would think they should not be orphans in the Engr community, but Specialists in the INT community.  The amounts of information that they deal with and can bring to the table in the G2/G3 gaming process does little off somewhere outside of that sphere.

 

[McG]

Ah!  You got me.  I would say the Occupation Specialty Qualification ...

In that case, it is possible to staff an SPQR to recomend the qualification be open to other occupations.  Not being familiar with the qual, I don't know what the supporting or detracting arguments would be either way.

 

[McG]

Yes they are a very specialized group of people, who quite often sit right in a G2 and do their work.  This is why, if this is where they will most often be employed in a BG or Bde, I would think they should not be orphans in the Engr community, but Specialists in the INT community.  The amounts of information that they deal with and can bring to the table in the G2/G3 gaming process does little off somewhere outside of that sphere.

There are more functions in the Geo Tech occupation than just geographic int and map production (though those are the two most frequently employed abilities).  These do get into the engineering realm.

 

[George Wallace]

There are more functions in the Geo Tech occupation than just geographic int and map production (though those are the two most frequently employed abilities).  These do get into the engineering realm.

I do have an idea of many of their capabilities, which for the most part are under utilized.  However, I see the data they have on Ground/Terrain, Vegetation, water feature and water tables, Infrastructure, Building plans, City plans, Population densities, Demographics, Precipitation, Wx, Arial and satellite imagery, and the myriad of other data files they have as being wasted more on the Engrs than being put to valuable use in the production of INT  products.  3D floor plans for a Hostage Rescue don’t seem to fall under the normal Engr mode of operations.  3D Fly thrus for Convoys to see where they are going to travel and likely ambush sites along the way do not seem to fall into the Engr mode of operations either. 

Geo Techs for the most part have been under utilized, making maps and overlays.  MCE probably does little in the way of actual Surveying any more.  They have gone high tech and use GPS and Satellites.  Arty Surveyors probably maintain more skill sets than MCE pers, and probably still do more, if not all, physical surveying. 

I think the Engr world has a fear of losing part of their little Empire, and that is the only reason that they fight to keep Geo Techs.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I do have an idea of many of their capabilities, which for the most part are under utilized.  However, I see the data they have on Ground/Terrain, Vegetation, water feature and water tables, Infrastructure, Building plans, City plans, Population densities, Demographics, Precipitation, Wx, Arial and satellite imagery, and the myriad of other data files they have as being wasted more on the Engrs than being put to valuable use in the production of INT  products.  3D floor plans for a Hostage Rescue don’t seem to fall under the normal Engr mode of operations.  3D Fly thrus for Convoys to see where they are going to travel and likely ambush sites along the way do not seem to fall into the Engr mode of operations either. 

Geo Techs for the most part have been under utilized, making maps and overlays.  MCE probably does little in the way of actual Surveying any more.  They have gone high tech and use GPS and Satellites.  Arty Surveyors probably maintain more skill sets than MCE pers, and probably still do more, if not all, physical surveying. 

I think the Engr world has a fear of losing part of their little Empire, and that is the only reason that they fight to keep Geo Techs.

When I retired the Engineers (the geo folks) were still mapping Canada: from space and on the ground, year after year, often (mainly?) in the Arctic. One of my directorate's jobs was to support both the space and terrestrial projects. The skill sets involved are were, I believe, remarkably different from those of Arty surveyors.

It appears, from afar, that you, George, are arguing for Int empire building rather than Engineers arguing to preserve theirs.

 

[Petard]

Geo Techs for the most part have been under utilized, making maps and overlays.  MCE probably does little in the way of actual Surveying any more.  They have gone high tech and use GPS and Satellites.  Arty Surveyors probably maintain more skill sets than MCE pers, and probably still do more, if not all, physical surveying. 

I think the Engr world has a fear of losing part of their little Empire, and that is the only reason that they fight to keep Geo Techs.

GPS is great for fixation, but orientation, not so much. I wish we still did have arty surveyors, but we don't. Its not about empire building, it is about being able to keep that specific skill set amongst some trade, so that common orientation or calibration points can be established in possibly very hostile environments.

The artillery is leaning heavily on the reserves to maintain a level of capability already, I'm doubtful they can take this on as well (or again). But for what its worth, I believe some trade needs to maintain this skill

 

[aesop081]

It appears, from afar, that you, George, are arguing for Int empire building rather than Engineers arguing to preserve theirs.

ding ding ding......we have a winner !!

Changing the branch that the geo guys belong to makes very little practical difference as to how they get employed and the use their product gets. The geo folks have always been the somewhat "distant cousin" of the engineer brach so its not like the maffia was going to come appart without them. I would think that the Int brach would be more concerned about make the maximum use of geo products rather than be concerned about.....wait for it.........cap badges.

 

[chrisf]

missed this nugget:
We don't have Geomatics capabilities in our reserve CER's. We have the positions; people have filled them, but we still lack a sanctioned Reserve QL3 or DP1/DP2 for them. That has been "in the works" for over 5 yrs and many good people have left due to the 'limbo' status.

Correction, we do have a few retired Geo techs but there is no equipment for them...

Chimo!

They have posistions? Because I know at least a few civillian geomatics engineering technologists who would love to fill those posistions... any idea if they'll grant equivilency?

 

[a_majoor]

I also know of a recent graduate; please provide any information (esp the location of any Geo dets in SW Ontario area) as he has expressed an interest.

 

[NSDreamer]

-stares in awe at the massive thread derailment. He hopes no one was hurt as this train jumped its tracks!- 

 

[George Wallace]

I also know of a recent graduate; please provide any information (esp the location of any Geo dets in SW Ontario area) as he has expressed an interest.

The one and only such Det as far as I know was in Ottawa.  You may remember them as being deployed behind 33 Bde HQ on Stalwart Guardian in 2007 (?).  I do know of Reserve INT OP filling the role, because of his civilian qualifications, at JTFC J2.  He is maintaining and administering a multi terabit database, collating, using IT software and hardware in his role producing information products for dissemination to the Comd. 

At the sounds of it from the posts here, the experiment of creating a Reserve unit may have slowly disappeared into the mists.  The access to and reliability of Hardware and software seem to be an expense the Reserves can not continue to maintain (in more than one Trade).  As these "Deltas" grow larger, the abilities for the Reserves to augment the Regular Force dwindle.