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General Vance - Inappropriate conduct?

To add to the discussion, I would argue that even if the relationship was no longer sexual when she was working directly for Vance in Toronto (as he alleges and she disputes), it still would have been highly inappropriate. You do not ever have a command relationship with an intimate connection. (How could you ever be impartial?)

I knew this back in the 80s at charm school; it is not a new concept. Even if Vance is telling the truth (for the record, I find her more credible), he still engaged in egregiously inappropriate conduct, especially for the officer supposed to epitomize military values.

I have peers who are utterly gutted by these revelations. And even with my profound cynicism, I am deeply disappointed that so many seem to have been aware of this relationship and turned a blind eye.
 
Haggis said:
Would not that be more of a rough equivalent to NDA s. 92 to 94? Of note, convictions under the RCMP Code of Conduct alone cannot land you in jail, whereas the NDA can.
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Nor can RCMP code of conduct proceedings land a criminal record. There's no external record of it. And if a member releases from RCMP, they can't impose any sanctions. I don't believe there is any meaningful comparator outside of CAF for the CSD.
 
Rifleman62 said:
Never Stick Your Quil In The Company's Ink.
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That’s not achievable. According to the numbers in the 2017 Regular Force Demographics Survey, 36% of Regular Force women were in a Service Couple. To that you can add unspecified numbers that are dating, men in same-sex couples, marriages where one member has released, etc... It’s a vast number and can‘t be handwaved away with a “don’t do this”. It was specifically mentioned in the Deschamps Report as something that we need to acknowledge and deal with, but we can never stop it.
 
lenaitch said:
What criminal activity? Not defending either side here. The problem with government 'ombudspersons' is they seem to seem to be expected to act like other political appointees and shuffle paper that doesn't ruffle feathers. If anything, they should be Officers of Parliament.
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Both the Veterans and CAF ombudsmen, specifically Guy Parent and Gary Walbourne, made that argument in front of Parliament but the Trudeau Government declined. The ombudspersons were a good idea but they are only as good as the support they get from the government. Unless it's something simple like getting around a particular individual or getting help to clear up confusion, they are basically useless. Their recommendations get adopted and them ignored for the most part.
 
Ostrozac said:
That’s not achievable. According to the numbers in the 2017 Regular Force Demographics Survey, 36% of Regular Force women were in a Service Couple. To that you can add unspecified numbers that are dating, men in same-sex couples, marriages where one member has released, etc... It’s a vast number and can‘t be handwaved away with a “don’t do this”. It was specifically mentioned in the Deschamps Report as something that we need to acknowledge and deal with, but we can never stop it.
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Only men? I know of a few female friends in same-sex relationships inside the CAF.

Notwithstanding the demographics and the concerns you quoted above, a relationship in the CAF becomes inappropriate when there is a power imbalance which is used to gain consent (something the complainant in this instance alluded to in her interview with Global News), real or perceived bias, or the relationship is used by either party as an influencing factor.
 
Haggis said:
Only men? I know of a few female friends in same-sex relationships inside the CAF.
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Women in same-sex service couples were included in the 36%. The statistics are a little hard to crunch, but it’s an interesting snapshot. Another data point is that 58% of the Regular Force are married or common-law — which is, no surprise, almost identical to the Canadian general population where it was 59% that year. Our military culture is closely tied to the Canadian culture from which we recruit.
 
Serious question. Does this not fall under section 129? Conduct unbecoming? There is a history of retired members being bought up on service charges for a lot less than this. False medals and awards etc. So what would it take to bring charges and a court marital? Just curious , way beyond any pay grade I was.
 
Rory Fowler, retired JAG LCol with a whiff of the PPCLI, wrote about the challenges of prosecuting any individual appointed under the NDA (CDS, JAG, military judges, Provost Marshal, Directors of Military Prosecution and Defence Counsel Services...) on his blog.

roryfowlerlaw.com

Prosecuting the Chief of the Defence Staff

Prosecuting the Chief of the Defence Staff Could the Chief of the Defence Staff (CDS) be prosecuted under the Code of Service Discipline? Recently, Global News published a report alleging misconduct on the part of the former CDS, General Jonathan Vance.[1] Specifically, it was alleged that...
roryfowlerlaw.com roryfowlerlaw.com
 
I read the blog, very legal sounding, so it would take a lot of effort and changes to the system to charge the CDS with any service related offense. So what will happen? Guess we wait and see?
 
MilEME09 said:
globalnews.ca

Conservatives urge salary freeze, independent probe over military misconduct claims - National | Globalnews.ca

Adm. Art McDonald and Gen. Jonathan Vance are facing military police investigations amid what experts call a 'crisis' for the Canadian Forces.
globalnews.ca globalnews.ca

Globals coverage continues with the CPC bringing up the possibility of a public inquiry, asking for wage and promotion freezes of senior ranks.
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Specifically, they are targeting GO/FOs for the freezes.
 
Haggis said:
Specifically, they are targeting GO/FOs for the freezes.
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Nothing like picking on one layer in a big organization to throw the fox in the hen house.

A few years ago I was working with a public sector organization that did that, froze senior executive wages, and the good people all left.

They're still paying for it, mainly by having to hire more consultants :)
 
Haggis said:
Specifically, they are targeting GO/FOs for the freezes.
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As I will never ever reach/aspire to those lofty heights, I am reasonably assured that I will get a pay raise. My point, not articulated, was that we seem to be regressing back into that period, merited or not, where scrutiny of the CAF becomes the de rigueur. Having lived through that for several iterations in the past 38 years, I am glad that I will be able to disengage.

The fact that we comprise the largest part of the discretionary budget has been a factor in how detractors/opponents have framed us in the past. Is this happening now/again?
 
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If you maintain a freeze for part of the structure too long, you can end up with inversions. Since it's usually LCol and below and Col and above pay increases: for GSOs, the difference in pay is about 7.8% between LCol max and Col basic (https://www.canada.ca/en/department...litary/pay-pension-benefits/pay/officers.html).

PSAC just got (compounded) 6.48% (http://psacunion.ca/deal-reached-for-phoenix-damages-pa-group-common-issues)... freeze Col/Capt(N) and GOFO another year or so and LCol/Cdrs will be paid more than Col/Capt(N).
 
dapaterson said:
If you maintain a freeze for part of the structure too long, you can end up with inversions. Since it's usually LCol and below and Col and above pay increases: for GSOs, the difference in pay is about 7.8% between LCol max and Col basic (https://www.canada.ca/en/department...litary/pay-pension-benefits/pay/officers.html).

PSAC just got (compounded) 6.48% (http://psacunion.ca/deal-reached-for-phoenix-damages-pa-group-common-issues)... freeze Col/Capt(N) and GOFO another year or so and LCol/Cdrs will be paid more than Col/Capt(N).
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Some Capts already make more than GOFOs (up to MGen). I don’t think they would care too too much.
 
In the late 90s there was a rank inversion between GSO LCol and Col, and there were instances of promotion refusal.
 
The plot thinnens..............
 
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daftandbarmy said:
They're still paying for it, mainly by having to hire more consultants :)
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Speaking of consultants...perhaps the CAF should spring for a romance consultant to teach senior leadership how to find dates outside the office. Or you know, maybe they could demonstrate fiscal stewardship and just go ask your average Cpl or Capt how it's done (Ok, on second thought, just hire the damn consultant...)
 
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