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General Hillier needs a lesson in democracy a la Pike

I hope you dont ban her. As all the other websites that go against the Forces do that...and I'd like to think this one is way better. Plus it makes see the other side.....and how far off to left field they are. Dont get me wrong I dont agree with her points at all, I just dont think we should ban her.
 
Me too. I'd prefer to keep those from "the other side" around, as long as they can behave like adults.

I'd also like to see a lot less ad hominum attacks on such people from "our" side - and I use the word "our" very lightly, as "we" are far from a homogeneous body ourselves.

Reasoned debate is Sweet Crunchy Goodness. Both sides have an opportunity to learn from the other.

So Pike, here's your opportunity to rise to the occasion and show that you can be a reasonable adult:

In recent days he has become an increasingly outspoken advocate of Canada's involvement in Afghanistan. Whether the Forces are or should be as important as multiculturalism or medicare may be -- to understate the matter -- a question of some debate. But that debate is a debate for, by, and among citizens and politicians. The general should butt out.

As the man in charge of the operation, he has the greatest amount of familiarity with what is really going on. If things are going well, things are going poorly - he is the man in the know. I would expect the man in charge to provide Canadians with his well-informed opinion of the nature and quality of the ongoing operation in Afghanistan, so that they can make a better informed opinion as to the value of the mission.

His job is to get the truth out. Would you rather not hear the truth?

Why? What are new recruits told when they first join. "You do not have a political opinion. It is part of being a professional in this profession"

That is true; soldiers are expected to remain apolitical, lest the opinion of one soldier appear to be the policy of the Canadian Armed Forces as a whole. Soldiers are expected to remain apart from party politics.

But that is not what the CDS is doing here. He is not campaining for one political party or another. Instead, he is making the effort to educate ordinary Canadians as to what their armed forces is doing in Afghanistan, why they are there, and what kind of success rate they are having. That would seem to me to be a laudable goal - especially when it appears that there is a great deal of confusion on this very issue. Many Canadians seem to feel that Afghanistan is tied to Iraq, when that is NOT the case at all, and the CDS is taking steps to eliminate the confusion.

Why is General Hiller appearing on daytime talk shows and nightly newscasts telling the Canadian people WHY we should support the mission? regardless if we should or not, HE should not be involved in the debate

Of course he should. He is the man in the best position to tell if we (the Armed Forces) are in a position to actually carry out the mission or not. I would expect the CDS to tell the Government (and the public) if the mission was beyond our capabilities, and I would expect him to do the same if it was within our capabilities. He's the military expert in the government - who else would you have discuss operational readiness?

The reason we abide by this rule (the army has no business in politics) in democratic Western societies is because there are countries in the world where military commanders take over the government and form dictatorships. As a General he should lead by example....am I right?

Absolutely right - in both cases. But what the CDS is doing is completely apolitical, in so far that he is not throwing his weight behind any particular party, nor is he doing anything that threatens Canadian democracy in any way. He is staying well within his Constitutionally-defined lanes.

You might want to read up on the law concerning the National Defense Act, and the roles of the CDS and the Minister of National Defense, and see exactly how the law defines the rights, duties, and responsibilities of the players defined therein. It looks like you may be surprised to see what the law actually states.

DG
 
Good post DG.

Further to the question on opinions - all soldiers are "allowed" to have personal opinions on politics or anything else.  They are not permitted to voice those opinions in any official way lest they be misconstrued as spokespeople for the government.  It's a government job, right?

Even the Wehrmacht struggled to be apolitical - non political armies are a long tradition in western culture.  It has to be that way, because we've seen what happens when you mix military and civilian political systems.  Idi Amin (or as he liked to put it, Field Marshall Idi Amin, VC, DSO, MC) and that ilk.  The government sets policy according to the will of the people (in a perfect world) and the military follows policy.  It is one of the burdens of being a soldier (another is the knowledge that you might die carrying out your duties) but one we accept gladly in exchange for the honour of serving others.
 
/ Rant on   /     You know the one thing that drives me up the wall are these  TREE HUGERS LIKE PIKE  they want us to have these grand discusions but if your opinions are not on the same level as them your automatically wrong .God for bid if some Canadians should support this effort to Afghanistan I know I do and that is my right PIKE . Here's  a news flash PIKE try voicing your opinion in Afghanistan in the old days of the talaban rule .... Oh But wait your a WOEMAN you wouldn't have been able to and if you did you would of been executed.....See while people like you have the rights to discuss to death weather or not we should be there blah blah blah  what you don't see is that there are others who don't have those same rights thats what our soldiers are trying to make sure doesn't happen again and thats why there over there so that way the people of Afghanistan can at least try to have a chance at having a democratically elected government so that way they can one day enjoy a lifestyle that you take for granted . /Rant off /   Sorry every one I don't mean to offend any one but people like PIKE get under my skin
 
Michael Dorosh said:
Idi Amin (or as he liked to put it, Field Marshall Idi Amin, VC, DSO, MC) . 
:)

Michael,

You forgot Conquerer of the British Empire.
rofl2.gif
The one he awarded himself when the Queen wouldn't invite him to Britain for a Commonwealth conference.
 
DG wrote: "He is not campaining for one political party or another."

To add to that, what Hillier is "campaigning for", is Afghanistan - explaining the situation and reasons to stay there.

Hillier is CDS - Chief of Defence Staff.  It is the role of staff to advise, to provide options, and to make recommendations - and then ultimately to follow orders and execute decisions.

Afghanistan is a test of our attention span with regard to the principles of human security.  Are we going to figure out how to make a lasting difference and stay there long enough to do so, or are we going to muddle through a few years of helping out some locals and then move on to some lower-hanging feel-good peacekeeping fruit?
 
dynaglide said:
Trinity,
I see you've been in the reserves for 13 yrs.  You are an officer, correct?  Do they not teach loyalty to the senior leadership anymore?  It's not a matter of pro-Hillier or against Hillier or whatever.  The bottom line is he's the man in charge so he deserves a certain amount of respect.  If not for the position he holds, then at least for the fact that he is doing an outstanding job.  I think the very least we can do as serving members is give the man his due, especially on a public forum.  Correct me if I'm wrong...

I believe what Trinity was trying to get at was that support for the CDS is coming from people other than the troops under him as well.  That why its not 100% from the troops.  Thats what I got out of it.
 
I would not presume to speak for the CDS, but I would guess that even when the Lieberals were still in he would have come out and still made the same comments.  We are his military.  He is the all-father of the largest of regimental families, the whole CF. 
I thought the hippies were always screaming for transparency and crap like that?  What more could you hope for? 
The real agenda here is the fact that the huggers know that if Canadians get some real, common sense, unrestricted truth, they will support the efforts in A'stan (as seen in recent CREDIBLE polls).  And that is a bitter pill for the Kum-bi-ya singing, patchoolie oil rubbing, hemp weaving, tree worshiping, capitalism vilifying, commune planning, body hair ignoring, dope smoking, Vancouver living, GTA loving, blue bike riding, economy protesting, seal protecting, B.O. smelling, stupid ass website running types.
 
There is a big difference between a military or civil servant publicly endorsing government policy and said servant publicly endorsing a political party.

The first is apolitical.

The second is political.

Not once have I seen General Hillier promote the Conservative Party.  He has been promoting the policies of the Government of Canada, as is his job.



Editted to fix puncuation.
 
zipperhead_cop said:
I would not presume to speak for the CDS, but I would guess that even when the Lieberals were still in he would have come out and still made the same comments.  We are his military.  He is the all-father of the largest of regimental families, the whole CF. 
I thought the hippies were always screaming for transparency and crap like that?  What more could you hope for? 
The real agenda here is the fact that the huggers know that if Canadians get some real, common sense, unrestricted truth, they will support the efforts in A'stan (as seen in recent CREDIBLE polls).  And that is a bitter pill for the Kum-bi-ya singing, patchoolie oil rubbing, hemp weaving, tree worshiping, capitalism vilifying, commune planning, body hair ignoring, dope smoking, Vancouver living, GTA loving, blue bike riding, economy protesting, seal protecting, B.O. smelling, stupid *** website running types.

Hey!

Not all of us "huggers" are capitalism hating, commune planning, website running types who smell like BO, like long hair, patchoolie oil, kum-bi-ya, or seals.... some are just capitalism hating, commune planning, website running tree huggers who still know how to take a bath, and happen to support well thought out, not completely and utterly flagrant abuse of power type military actions...

...of course we'd prefer it if it was to deliver TRUE democracy to the people (ie socialism), but superficial is an improvement over tyrannical oligarchy, whether or not you think your bread should be measured in dollars or labour value.

So watch the pinkophobic comments!  ;)
 
Well I am a man of my word, Pike was given 24 hours and she failed to engage in a meaniful debate. In light of her posting the same message as well on other forums, she was banned for trolling.
 
Funny, I am (a) from BC and (b) an ex university student that was stuying to be a proffesional tree hugger/granola muncher while in uniform and (c) strangely enough, I have never voted left of right center in my life.  Not all munchers/huggers are commie bastards - just alot (I didn't make many friends in my dept  ;D) - so please be careful with your paintbrush.

MM
 
Constitutionally, Pike, the CDS is required to be apolitical

LOL - apolitical or not, who's the jackass that logged onto her site with the user name of General Hillier? LMAO. he voted in one of her polls. Hows that for democratic.

Zipperhead- the swearing, the swearing over there ... tsk tsk ... sounds like downtown Tecumseh.
 
whiskey601 said:
LOL - apolitical or not, who's the jackass that logged onto her site with the user name of General Hillier? LMAO. he voted in one of her polls. Hows that for democratic.

Zipperhead- the swearing, the swearing over there ... tsk tsk ... sounds like downtown Tecumseh.

Just a bit of anarchy for fun.  If you think I'm conducting myself poorly....take a peek back.  Plus, they started it.  I was trying to play nice, and only wanted a profile to PM Pike to come back to defend her foolishness.  Now I'm just curious how bad you have to act over there to get banned, but I think I've had my fun and am packing it in. 

As for the posts here, the ones I care about...
All I can say about the tree hugger mini rant is I re-iterate the need for a [sarcasm] smiley.  All non-toxic and completely facetious.  ;D  I love you all!
 
zipperhead_cop said:
;D  I love you all!

... *sniffle*... I love you too man.... Now excuse me, there is cute tree that needs my love and affection.... (the sarcasm was understood, on my part at least...)
 
Hatchet Man said:
I believe what Trinity was trying to get at was that support for the CDS is coming from people other than the troops under him as well.  That why its not 100% from the troops.  Thats what I got out of it.

Thank you... I wrote the post in haste while doing something else at work.

I still hurt from the lobotomy.
 
zipperhead_cop said:
Just a bit of anarchy for fun...   ...but I think I've had my fun and am packing it in.

Nah, Just change the username, and let the hilarity ensure..... I havent laughed that hard in awhile...
 
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