General Election: Oct 21, 2019

[Jarnhamar]

I don't see a reason to doubt his posts.  I

I find the statement Scheer is filled with hate when he talks to be overly dramatic and I'd say typical "Conservatives = hate speech" mantra that was constantly pushed in the media and by certain politicians and political entities.

I AM starting to believe a democratic nation gets the leader they deserve.

 

[Altair]

Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?

If the Conservatives had a real climate plan they probably win the election.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Conservatives do have a real climate plan; most people don't recognize it.  Conservatives tend to be the most pro-prosperity group.  Generally, the more prosperous a society, the lower its birth rate and the more it is technologically capable, fiscally capable, and desirous of mitigating environmental damage.  A key driver of prosperity is abundant and inexpensive energy.

If Greens got everything they say they want right now, I can easily predict that people will fall back on the means of earlier times to get by (heating, lighting, transportation, etc).

 

[Remius]

Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?

Possibly.  Climate action is one thing they pretty much dismissed.  Fair enough. But they need something, anything than what they have.  But it seems  they were banking on people’s frustration with Trudeau instead of actually offering something else.  Instead they resorted to their old tactics and people got tired of it.  Fear mongering and inventing things out of thin air that people were not buying into.

Plus avoiding issues and not getting a grip on the attacks coming their way. 

Gay marriage didn’t have to be an issue.  But Scheer’s response kept that alive.  People didn’t want to hear his canned response designed to not anger is social conservative base.  They wanted an honest answer but when it finally came after the debate it was too late. 

 

[Altair]

Conservatives do have a real climate plan; most people don't recognize it.  Conservatives tend to be the most pro-prosperity group.  Generally, the more prosperous a society, the lower its birth rate and the more it is technologically capable, fiscally capable, and desirous of mitigating environmental damage.  A key driver of prosperity is abundant and inexpensive energy.

If Greens got everything they say they want right now, I can easily predict that people will fall back on the means of earlier times to get by (heating, lighting, transportation, etc).

The experts who looked at the CPC climate plan said emissions would rise.

So when climate change was one of the top ballot box questions,  not having a climate plan that would result in a rise in emissions is a great way to set a ceiling on potential support.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If the Conservatives had a real climate plan they probably win the election.

A climate plan would have convinced Canada Ontario Toronto to vote conservative and win a majority?

Possibly.  Climate action is one thing they pretty much dismissed.  Fair enough. But they need something, anything than what they have.  But it seems  they were banking on people’s frustration with Trudeau instead of actually offering something else.  Instead they resorted to their old tactics and people got tired of it.  Fear mongering and inventing things out of thin air that people were not buying into.

See above. I think no matter what the Conservatives said, promised or did, they weren't going to shake the Liberal hold on empire Toronto.

Gay marriage didn’t have to be an issue.  But Scheer’s response kept that alive. 

I was actually impressed with his stance on gay marriage and abortion. More specifically I like that he had the backbone to take an unpopular stance on it because that's what he believed in, even though I disagree with his views 100%.

He clearly said he wouldn't reopen the abortion debate and all the fears about Conservatives banning gay marriage was just silly. It even even came up the 8 years Harper was in office, why would Scheer try.

I suppose Scheer might have got some votes of he joined the pride parade and waved around a rainbow flag.

But honestly, would he really have?
Pride parade who bans police and soldiers from marching with them? Pride that seems like it caters to special interest groups more than anything?

Pride would have welcomed him with open arms? I doubt it. I bet they'd make a big stink about it and try to publically shame him by protesting the parade or boycotting it.

Am I wrong?



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4699694
2018
Edmonton police, RCMP, military banned from future Pride parades

 

[Altair]

A climate plan would have convinced Canada Ontario Toronto to vote conservative and win a majority?

Majority?  No. No one was going to with the bloc surging

See above. I think no matter what the Conservatives said, promised or did, they weren't going to shake the Liberal hold on empire Toronto.

Looking past Toronto,  the CPC did poorly across the board. Toronto has 25 seats,  Ontario has 121 seats. Fixation on Toronto masks the larger issue.

I was actually impressed with his stance on gay marriage and abortion. More specifically I like that he had the backbone to take an unpopular stance on it because that's what he believed in, even though I disagree with his views 100%.

It was his non answer to the question that hurt him. He could have apologized for his speech in 2004-5 and it would have ended there. He didn't. He could have said he is personally anti abortion but won't reopen the issue. He didnt. Scheer has the exact same stance on abortion as trudeau,  he just didn't articulate it.

He clearly said he wouldn't reopen the abortion debate and all the fears about Conservatives banning gay marriage was just silly. It even even came up the 8 years Harper was in office, why would Scheer try.

I suppose Scheer might have got some votes of he joined the pride parade and waved around a rainbow flag.

But honestly, would he really have?
Pride parade who bans police and soldiers from marching with them? Pride that seems like it caters to special interest groups more than anything?

  Doug Ford marched in a more conservative riding pride parade that welcomed him. Scheer didn't even do that.

Pride would have welcomed him with open arms? I doubt it. I bet they'd make a big stink about it and try to publically shame him by protesting the parade or boycotting it.

Am I wrong?



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4699694
2018
Edmonton police, RCMP, military banned from future Pride parades

Again,  nobody is asking Scheer to go get booed in downtown toronto. But edmonton Pride,  Regina pride, calgary pride,  red deer pride,  somewhere, there was a pride parade in a place more friendly to a conservative leader,  and he still chose not to do it.

The question becomes why?  Is he so opposed to gay marriage that he cannot be seen to do the bare minimum and march with them?  That does make a lot of people,  especially in urban ridings,  uncomfortable. Doug Ford did it,  not a word was mentioned afterwards,  issue dead. Scheer didn't and it dogged him. So yes,  I think it would have made a difference. 

 

[mariomike]

I think no matter what the Conservatives said, promised or did, they weren't going to shake the Liberal hold on empire Toronto.

Empire? Hardly. Not yet, and likely never will be.

The GTA ( Toronto, Halton, Peel, York and Durham aka the 416 / 905 ) is under the control of Queen's Park.

The population of the GTA is greater than British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, PEI.

So, all teams must look at the GTA as a vote rich environment.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?

The way I see it the problem wasn't that the CPC weren't better listeners, but lousy talkers (e.g Inability to get their message across).

If the Conservatives had a real climate plan they probably win the election.

If climate change was such a big issue for Canadians the NDP or Green would be in charge. Instead the Greens won one extra seat (from two to three) and the NDP lost 15.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Majority?  No. No one was going to with the bloc surging

So a climate plan would have caused Quebec to vote 30 seats for the Conservatives instead of the bloc?

Looking past Toronto,  the CPC did poorly across the board. Toronto has 25 seats,  Ontario has 121 seats. Fixation on Toronto masks the larger issue

Liberals kept 25 of Toronto's seats. They also kept 24 of 29 seats just outside of the core which is identical to where they were on election night in 2015.
So Toronto didn't budge in 4 years. A worthy fortress I'd say.

It was his non answer to the question that hurt him. He could have apologized for his speech in 2004-5 and it would have ended there.

Have you ever seen what happens to celebrities who try to apologise to various offended groups? Maybe it's different.  It's hilarious to see though. Like sharks.

He could have said he is personally anti abortion but won't reopen the issue.

I thought that's exactly what he did.

Doug Ford marched in a more conservative riding pride parade that welcomed him.

And he faced criticism for refusing to march in the Toronto pride parade due to them banning police and military.

Scheer didn't even do that. Again,  nobody is asking Scheer to go get booed in downtown toronto.

So you want him to go against the tennents of his religion just to placate a group of Canadians? 

But edmonton Pride,  Regina pride, calgary pride,  red deer pride,  somewhere, there was a pride parade in a place more friendly to a conservative leader,  and he still chose not to do it.

Edmonton pride that banned RCMP, police and military-even out of uniform? I wouldn't consider that friendly.

Thats besides the point. It was a religious decision for him. Why are we pressured to respect some religious rules but not others?

The question becomes why?  Is he so opposed to gay marriage that he cannot be seen to do the bare minimum and march with them?

Integrity. It would be fake of him to do it.  The same way its fake for all those police officer hopefuls to volunteer at local agencies for the sake of crossing off the volunteer check in the box. They're not doing it because they enjoy volunteering.

Doug Ford did it,  not a word was mentioned afterwards,  issue dead.

Incorrect. Marching in the York parade wasn't good enough. He was criticized for not marching in the Toronto parade.
And I bet if he did try then knowing the Toronto pride mentality, like Edmonton, they would have made a big deal about it.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Aaaaand for a pro-Russian site's take on the results (linked to a text summary site so we don't HAVE to link to whoever is behind the original piece) ...

Freeland’s Victory, Canada 2020 and the New Malthusian Takeover of Canada
Matthew Ehret, fort-russ.com, October 23, 2019

With the election victory of the Liberal Government of Justin Trudeau and Chrystia Freeland on October 21st, Canada’s political landscape has found itself again under the continued clutches of a Green technocratic dictatorship which took control of the Liberal Party 54 years ago with the British-run ouster of the “continentalist” liberals of C.D. Howe and Prime Minister St. Laurent during the interim period of 1957-1963. This story was told in my previous report “Forgotten Battles Against the Deep State part one”.

Although the parasite controlling today’s Liberal government is called Canada 2020,this think tank (formed in 2003) is merely the most recent manifestation of a foreign takeover which goes back to 1933… and I’m not talking about the Russians. This takeover has been led by an operation called the Round Table movement and it’s sister organization the Fabian Society. Their use of planning conferences have been instrumental in guiding this process.

( ... )

The Liberal Party of Jean Chretien and Paul Martin, which had been in power from 1993-2006, distinguished itself as being the last major federal party to resist, even in some small form, aspects of the Empire’s agenda in the form of their rejection of Canada’s participation in the Iraq war in 2003, rejection of the Anti-Ballistic Missile shield in 2005 and the failed 1997 attempt to consolidate the “big 5” banks into the “big 3”.

Battles between Prime Minister Chretien and such pro-British establishment figures as Lord Conrad Black expressed this lack of British control over its Canadian dominion to a large degree. Such lack of control of an important dominion within the British Commonwealth had to be reined in and a more virulent form of Canadian nationalism more conducive to a globally extended empire had to be weaved in its place.

Considering the very real possibility that President Trump may yet push for arctic cooperation with Eurasia while imposing Glass-Steagall onto the bankrupt too big to fail banks before they meltdown, bringing America back towards its constitutional roots, the desire by the British oligarchy to keep a tight grip on its North American colony separating Russia from America has been more desperate now during the economic collapse than ever before ...

More @ link

These guys also share the news about "How the Deep State Overthrew the Last Nationalist Government of Canada… in 1963!". (also links to outline.com instead of original site)

 

[stellarpanther]

I'm pretty sure stellarpanther is the Master Troll and is just having a laugh at all of our expense.

Ok if you say so.  Basically some on here don't want to admit that a lot of people can't stand the negativity of Scheer and if the people don't like it and choose to vote for someone else because of it that means they don't follow the election.  Is there a problem with not wanting our elections to turn in the circus they have in the U.S. where it's constant insults and mudslinging?

I'm not a person who automatically votes for one particular party.  I decide based on what I think of the issues.  I don't want the new pipeline built, the CPC have no climate plan except to keep on polluting.  I also can't stand that Scheer can't answer one simple question on anything without bashing Trudeau or another party.  I also like the Liberal policy for VAC.  The are plenty of other reasons but those are the big ones for me.


Finally, I am not trolling or getting a laugh at anyone on here although I do find some of the comments since my last post a bit amusing and pathetic at the same time.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Ok if you say so.  Basically some on here don't want to admit that a lot of people can't stand the negativity of Scheer and if the people don't like it and choose to vote for someone else because of it that means they don't follow the election.  Is there a problem with not wanting our elections to turn in the circus they have in the U.S. where it's constant insults and mudslinging?

I'm not a person who automatically votes for one particular party.  I decide based on what I think of the issues.  I don't want the new pipeline built, the CPC have no climate plan except to keep on polluting.  I also can't stand that Scheer can't answer one simple question on anything without bashing Trudeau or another party.  I also like the Liberal policy for VAC.  The are plenty of other reasons but those are the big ones for me.


Finally, I am not trolling or getting a laugh at anyone on here although I do find some of the comments since my last post a bit amusing and pathetic at the same time.

I personally hated watching Scheer at the debates. When his opening lead directly into a attack on Trudeau, I was honestly disgusted. It was pathetic, and a clear showing that he isn't ready to be a prime minister (none of the others really preformed at the level I would expect them to be at either). He would have had plenty of opportunities to shoot jabs later in the night when it was more relevant, but instead immediately did so off the back when it wasn't appropriate or justified. Good luck selling the Conservative brand, when all you have to do is show a 30 second clip on the opening debate and literally pretty much anyone but a diehard Conservative wouldn't be impressed. Anyone on the fence immediately knows where they want to stand when they see stuff like that.

 

[FJAG]

...
So you want him to go against the tennents of his religion just to placate a group of Canadians? 
...

No I don't but therein lies the problem. Scheer right now is saying that he believes it's possible to hold socially conservative views and be the prime minister.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-socially-conservative-1.5334891

Unfortunately I think that a large part of the electorate, myself included, doesn't believe that is possible. Anecdotally speaking two members of my family who were life long conservatives voted otherwise simply because they no longer trust the party on that issue. Note that it's not just him but the whole party that they don't trust. Locally my CPC candidate in part won the nomination for her largely rural riding by putting her Christian values and pro life stance out front and, like our riding, many solid CPC ridings associations now have a vocal majority that are looking for like minded candidates.  Remember that back in 2018 at the CPC's National Policy Convention the delegates only narrowly defeated a motion that would have repealed Article 65 of the CPC policy handbook (i.e. the CPC will not support any legislation to regulate abortion). Scheer's position has been that while pro-life, his government wouldn't bring any legislation forward to regulate abortion although he wouldn't oppose any private member's bill to do so. That's worrisome to people who support the country's status quo on this subject.

The CPC and it's leadership are seen by many as having a hidden agenda on abortion and gay marriage. The CPC is seen as a Trojan Horse of fiscal conservatism filled with social conservatives ready to pounce if again given power. Quite frankly as a life long conservative I have the same concerns although this time I was able to choke it down and take Scheer at his word. Many conservatives who, like me, are more centrists and socially liberal, and many independent centrists have been watching what has been going on with the Republican Party down south and no longer which to take the risk with the CPC.

I think that the CPC has a hard row to hoe in the future. A large part of it's membership is socially conservative and feeling it's oats. I read one article that said over 70 CPC candidates running in this election were openly pro-lifers. That shows how deeply the social conservative wing of the party is ingrained at the riding level. As this wing grows, more fiscal conservatives will jump ship by simply staying home. Personally I'm staying with the party to see what I can do from the inside but, quite frankly, I'm pessimistic about any change. IMHO, social conservatives care more about their narrow causes than the overarching need for a fiscally conservative government and they have nowhere else to go to push their agenda. They are going to be with the CPC for a long haul and, unfortunately, I think they will win out in the end.

:worms:

 

[Altair]

No I don't but therein lies the problem. Scheer right now is saying that he believes it's possible to hold socially conservative views and be the prime minister.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/scheer-socially-conservative-1.5334891

Unfortunately I think that a large part of the electorate, myself included, doesn't believe that is possible. Anecdotally speaking two members of my family who were life long conservatives voted otherwise simply because they no longer trust the party on that issue. Note that it's not just him but the whole party that they don't trust. Locally my CPC candidate in part won the nomination for her largely rural riding by putting her Christian values and pro life stance out front and, like our riding, many solid CPC ridings associations now have a vocal majority that are looking for like minded candidates.  Remember that back in 2018 at the CPC's National Policy Convention the delegates only narrowly defeated a motion that would have repealed Article 65 of the CPC policy handbook (i.e. the CPC will not support any legislation to regulate abortion). Scheer's position has been that while pro-life, his government wouldn't bring any legislation forward to regulate abortion although he wouldn't oppose any private member's bill to do so. That's worrisome to people who support the country's status quo on this subject.

The CPC and it's leadership are seen by many as having a hidden agenda on abortion and gay marriage. The CPC is seen as a Trojan Horse of fiscal conservatism filled with social conservatives ready to pounce if again given power. Quite frankly as a life long conservative I have the same concerns although this time I was able to choke it down and take Scheer at his word. Many conservatives who, like me, are more centrists and socially liberal, and many independent centrists have been watching what has been going on with the Republican Party down south and no longer which to take the risk with the CPC.

I think that the CPC has a hard row to hoe in the future. A large part of it's membership is socially conservative and feeling it's oats. I read one article that said over 70 CPC candidates running in this election were openly pro-lifers. That shows how deeply the social conservative wing of the party is ingrained at the riding level. As this wing grows, more fiscal conservatives will jump ship by simply staying home. Personally I'm staying with the party to see what I can do from the inside but, quite frankly, I'm pessimistic about any change. IMHO, social conservatives care more about their narrow causes than the overarching need for a fiscally conservative government and they have nowhere else to go to push their agenda. They are going to be with the CPC for a long haul and, unfortunately, I think they will win out in the end.

:worms:

I was hoping the PPC would be the fiscally conservative party with socially liberal views.

It was a shame that it turned into the anti immigration, anti foreigner fringe party it did, glad it fizzled out the way it did.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Paraphrasing- if Conservatives were better listeners they would have won the election?

I find both the hardcore supporters of the Libs and the CPC very unwillingly to listen to anything that does not fit their views, they live within their own ecosystem.

 

[Brad Sallows]

And other parties have no hidden agendas or narrow causes that they're going to pounce on?

A couple of things I've learned over decades: the "so-con" hidden agenda is forever the preoccupation/bogeyman of Chicken Littles, but somehow the dial never moves backward - the threat is conceived, but never realized.  Meanwhile, we do continue to experience weak fiscal management, a constant expansion of "security" with a commensurate contraction of "liberty", and a country in which the well-being of people occupied with governing and public services creeps further ahead of the median every year.

The "progressive" agenda is, empirically, more of a threat than the "conservative" one.

The prudent solution to the "so-con" agenda is for the "mod-cons" to throw in with the conservatives and bend the trajectory, not to throw in with the "not-cons" or disengage entirely.  When you say "Oh, the old PCs have been purged" and walk away, you make your criticism a little bit more true.

What is this horseshit about not being able to hold conservative views and be PM?  What is Justin Trudeau's personal view on abortion?

 

[Remius]

What is this horseshit about not being able to hold conservative views and be PM?  What is Justin Trudeau's personal view on abortion?

I think you can.  But you have to demonstrate that you will support and defend something that you may not want to believe in.  That is the current narrative with Scheer, whether it is true or not. 

Trudeau may have shown that his personal views don't impact his job as PM, Scheer it would seem has not.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=FJAG]

Unfortunately I think that a large part of the electorate, myself included, doesn't believe that is possible. [/QUOTE]


Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?

 

[Altair]

Do you think a practicing Muslim would be able to be prime minister?

I think anyone,  of any creed,  could be prime minister if they show up,  and very early on say that any anti gay marriage,  anti abortion candidates who would bring it up or vote in that manner can see themselves out would get the benefit of the doubt.