G8/G20 June 2010 Protest Watch

[mellian]

All that verbiage and you offer no solution to how the peaceful protesters will keep the "direct action folks" out of their areas in order to avoid giving the police a need to be deployed.

I did.

Okay I admit, it was my realistic response base on the present realities of such large protests and what will most likely be the case at Toronto.

Ideally, yes it would be awesome to have a group of volunteers with guts to confront the violent and vandalizing folks to stop or at least keep them away from peaceful protests while having full consensus support of the main groups organizing the protest. These volunteers would have to be willing to risk physical and violent confrontations, and possibly risk arrests themselves as the police are not keen of vigilantism, even during protests. This includes risking putting off a lot of peaceful protesters too.

Do you not see that the security forces react to existing threats?

Yes, and a lot of times with overkill, as in more than needed.

The police being there do not make the protesters start breaking windows and throwing firebombs.  The rioters choose to commit those crimes.

What is the plan of the "peaceful mass" to separate themselves from the "direct action folks"?

Hard to tell, considering the "peaceful mass" is comprised of many individuals whom majority prefer peaceful protests and pacifism, not an well organized and trained discipline army or police force.

They organizers (or some of) are at least seeking volunteers to be impartial monitors during the protests,  observing and reporting both police and protester activities, and be available to testify if needed.  This suggest they are trying within realistic means.

Why even call it "direct action", that implies that you accept it as being part of the overall protest movement. Why don't the legitimate protesters work harder to separate themselves from these CRIMINALS? 

And can you explain this: "direct action" against who?  The taxpayers that have to see government money spent to provide the security forces that are only needed because of escalating "direct action" CRIMINAL activity, and also to repair the damage these CRIMINALS do?

The "direct action" meant to be sarcastic snicker, as in what they call what many of the few do. At the same time, not all methods of direct action involves violence or vandalism. It can include blockades of streets, roads, entrances and such. Disruptive sit downs. Infiltrating into a political party or conference in attempt to scream some message. Trespassing and put some big banner off a building. Squatting inside an corporate or government office. While they may risk arrests, they do not involve violence or vandalism.

So since not just violent folks who balk at any plans that does not involve 'direct action' or discourages it, can't exactly consider all of them violent or vandalism. Hence, do not automatically it is just that whenever read something online.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I hope police, security and military personnel don't become terrorists during the protests.........

I hope if a protestor picks up a molitov to throw at police they get shot in the head.

Then all your buddies at rabble can really have something to bitch about instead of LOLing anytime a Canadian soldier gets killed overseas.

 

[dapaterson]

Remember that in times of tight budgets security agencies view this sort of event as a way to get additional funding to acquire new/upgraded equipment that has a useful life long after the event is over - it is the nature of a bureaucratic organization to do so.

Remember also that outside of the military, the policing services and other support organizations (including the DFAIT organizers) are all working 70-80 hour weeks - with a significant chunk of that at overtime rates at a 50-100% premium.  That contributes significantly to the costs.

Indeed, you will see many senior folks at these events putting in the maximum overtime they can - since the additional hours are pensionable , and most public sector workers have their pensions based on the average of their top 5 years of earnings - an extra 10% on their yearly pay after an event like this translates into thousands of dollars more over their retirement.


All sorts of incentives built into the system; few of them encourage conservative expenditures.

 

[mariomike]

Indeed, you will see many senior folks at these events putting in the maximum overtime they can - since the additional hours are pensionable , and most public sector workers have their pensions based on the average of their top 5 years of earnings - an extra 10% on their yearly pay after an event like this translates into thousands of dollars more over their retirement.

OMERS (Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System) represents the municipal Police Officers, Firefighters and Paramedics in Ontario:
http://www.omers.com/Assets/supplemental+plans/Supplemental+Plan+handbook.pdf

"This is the annual average of your highest 48 consecutive months – your best four years – of contributory earnings in the Primary Plan. It does not include any overtime pay or most lump-sum payments."
Ref: Part 5: “Best Four” Earnings Benefit. Page: 24. Paragraph: one.

I have been a full-time member of OMERS  since 1972, and an OMERS pensioner since 2009. I have worked a lot of mandated and voluntary overtime. There was lots of it. Every year, all year round.
Overtime has nothing to do with your pension.

"Toronto hotel workers authorize a strike: Labour disruption could affect G20 summit:
Toronto's largest hotel workers union has voted to authorize a strike if contract negotiations break down, just weeks ahead of the tensely anticipated G20 summit.":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/toronto-hotel-workers-authorize-a-strike/article1590875/

"Wanted: Jailhouse doctors for G20 summit: Protesters detained during the G20 summit will be treated in custody for minor injuries, according to an email seeking doctors to work at a temporary jail.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/818518--wanted-jailhouse-doctors-for-g20-summit

"Queen’s Park to be boarded up during G20":
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/818484

"Mounties shun ‘sound cannons’ in urban settings ahead of G20:  As the Toronto Police showcase new summit gear, the RCMP reveals that it does not support the use of acoustic guns to control crowds":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/mounties-shun-sound-cannons-in-urban-settings-ahead-of-g20/article1590210/

"The Integrated Security Unit unveiled its collection of security measures to the media":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/show-of-force/article1591077/

"Toronto EMS spokeswoman Kim McKinnon said the summit won’t disrupt regular service.":
'There’ll be absolutely seamless service in the city of Toronto' 

Apologies to those under OMERS (and the PSSA, as I have just discovered) - there are some plans that do permit overtime to be pensionable.

No problem! 
Pensionable OT, sounds like a sweet deal!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

and most public sector workers have their pensions based on the average of their top 5 years of earnings - an extra 10% on their yearly pay after an event like this translates into thousands of dollars more over their retirement.

No need to derail from the thread any further but than too say that this is 100% wrong.
Signed,
Public Sector Worker
Bruce

 

[Michael OLeary]

So since not just violent folks who balk at any plans that does not involve 'direct action' or discourages it, can't exactly consider all of them violent or vandalism. Hence, do not automatically it is just that whenever read something online.

This effectively summarizes your argument: inarticulate nonsense.

You have no answers, you just don't like the preparations made by legal authority which are driven by the known risks created by violent protesters.  If you want to see the police response eliminated, then the protest movements MUST deal with their violent members and keep them away. Until you do that, you have no cause to complain when the legal authorities are required to deal with CRIMINALS in YOUR midst.

 

[George Wallace]

The amount of police officers they had when Bush came to Ottawa or even G8 or Montebello was much less than for G20 in 2001 with the formers resulting in being more all around peaceful, and the size of the protest was about the same with the unfortunate usual amount of the "direct actions" folks. Yes, Toronto protests will be much bigger and quite possibly more intense....but 1 billion?

The cost to protect one Head of State, can not be used to protect 20 plus Heads of State.  The costs go up 20 (plus).  The US entourage of bureaucrats along with those of the other 20 plus nations creates just that many more costs and numbers of people to provide services, facilities, transportation, protection, etc.  If anyone can not  see this, then they are an idiot.

 

[aesop081]

to be impartial monitors during the protests, 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/blog-local-view/g20-human-rights-monitors-needed/article1588198/?cmpid=rss1

They will be assigned to follow protests and take notes on what occurs, with an eye to watching how demonstrators are treated by police.

You and the CCLA may want to look up the meaning of "impartial"  :

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You guys never learn :

:deadhorse: ;D

 

[dapaterson]

Remember also that outside of the military, the policing services and other support organizations (including the DFAIT organizers) are all working 70-80 hour weeks - with a significant chunk of that at overtime rates at a 50-100% premium.  That contributes significantly to the costs.

Indeed, you will see many senior folks at these events putting in the maximum overtime they can - since the additional hours are pensionable , and most public sector workers have their pensions based on the average of their top 5 years of earnings - an extra 10% on their yearly pay after an event like this translates into thousands of dollars more over their retirement.

Apologies to those under OMERS (and the PSSA, as I have just discovered) - there are some plans that do permit overtime to be pensionable.  My mistake.

 

[kratz]

Ack,

People are human. Humans can be wrong.  ;D

 

[mellian]

This effectively summarizes your argument: inarticulate nonsense.

:

You have no answers, you just don't like the preparations made by legal authority which are driven by the known risks created by violent protesters.  If you want to see the police response eliminated, then the protest movements MUST deal with their violent members and keep them away. Until you do that, you have no cause to complain when the legal authorities are required to deal with CRIMINALS in YOUR midst.

What I would like is protests to be able to happen where no one gets hurt, and this includes police/security. If police preparations involves risking harming peaceful protests and risk causing a riot or/and panic, no matter what the preparations are by protest organizers, then they fail at their job. The police are the police, not the protest organizers. Protest organizers are generally about being able to have a peaceful protest where everyone and anyone can attend, not be the police themselves. There are laws against vigilantism, and for good reason.

1 Billion budget suggest excessive force, meaning a lot of people risk getting hurt. Treat protesters as criminals and you will get them. So to fulfill what I would like, of course I will be against either, and be vocal against it. It is what I done from the beginning, from when I even got first involved to now just talking about it and debate here on milnet. This includes going against the idiots that pull stupid stunts like firebombing banks, throwing rocks, and molotovs, or for simply showing for the sake of protesting instead of the issues and message is intended to be.

As for beating a dead horse...it is a message board. Same topic will get discussed again and again every so often wherever. Part of how society evolves, by talking about things again and again. Each time is discussed, it is different even if many of the same points are covered along with new ones, and this includes at least one person saying it is going in circles, ad nauseum, and beating a dead horse. Be thankful there is an easy solution to this, can simply chose to not read and not post.

 

[Michael OLeary]

And you have yet to explain how you would remove the need for security forces.

It's time you identified how you, and all so-called "peaceful" protesters, plan to be part of the solution.  You certainly haven't established that violence and CRIMINAL acts would not occur if the police weren't there.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think I understand.

If we had less police at a protest or no police at all then there wouldn't be any violence because the trouble makers wouldn't have anyone to be troublesome to.

Everyone would get along, sit together and discuss ideas and ways to change and no one would get hurt or be oppressed.

We could ask for volunteers of unarmed and untrained good samaritians to act as a "parent force" which could identify any (unlikely) trouble makers and give them a stern talking to.

With the movey we save we can forgive debt to countries that owe Canada money.

It'll work.  Mellian, interested in being the leader of the group of unarmed untrained civilians that will waggle their finger at the masked, armed professional rioters?

 

[George Wallace]

........... Protest organizers are generally about being able to have a peaceful protest where everyone and anyone can attend, not be the police themselves. There are laws against vigilantism, and for good reason.

I don't know how you were brought up, but I was brought up to be responsible for my actions.  Yes, there are laws against vigilantism, but that does not preclude you of your responsibilities to stop it.  As an "organizer" of an event, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.  You are responsible to ensure that your event, your actions, the actions of all your participants, etc are within the Law.  You are responsible for your actions.  You are responsible to maintain the law (within the powers that the Law permit you).  You seem to have missed out on this important fact: YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES as a member of this society. 

You have to "police" yourself.  You have to "police" your event, be it a party in your backyard, a birthday party, or an organized protest.  YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.

 

[Teeps74]

:


What I would like is protests to be able to happen where no one gets hurt, and this includes police/security. If police preparations involves risking harming peaceful protests and risk causing a riot or/and panic, no matter what the preparations are by protest organizers, then they fail at their job. The police are the police, not the protest organizers. Protest organizers are generally about being able to have a peaceful protest where everyone and anyone can attend, not be the police themselves. There are laws against vigilantism, and for good reason.

'Fraid you missed the boat bub. The problem from day one has always been that protest organizers do not want to police themselves.  Meaing, when something bad is about to happen, they do nothing to stop it. Nor will they call the police.  Organizers and marshals have failed utterly in every regard to date...

1 Billion budget suggest excessive force, meaning a lot of people risk getting hurt. Treat protesters as criminals and you will get them.

To date, at protests on other events, the protestors were criminals. You treat a criminal like a criminal. Don't like being treated like a criminal, then do not act like one.  That means, when you see someone cocking an arm back with a rock/brick/molotov cocktail, stop them, single them out, and get the police involved.  Let us not forget the wanton vandalism that WILL occur, committed by those in YOUR midst.

So to fulfill what I would like, of course I will be against either, and be vocal against it. It is what I done from the beginning, from when I even got first involved to now just talking about it and debate here on milnet. This includes going against the idiots that pull stupid stunts like firebombing banks, throwing rocks, and molotovs, or for simply showing for the sake of protesting instead of the issues and message is intended to be.

As for beating a dead horse...it is a message board. Same topic will get discussed again and again every so often wherever. Part of how society evolves, by talking about things again and again. Each time is discussed, it is different even if many of the same points are covered along with new ones, and this includes at least one person saying it is going in circles, ad nauseum, and beating a dead horse. Be thankful there is an easy solution to this, can simply chose to not read and not post.

Aye, there is an easy solution. You can chose to learn, and realize that you have responsibilities which you have been failing utterly to recognize and fulfil. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

1 Billion budget suggest excessive force,

DING< DING< DING........I couldn't let this go by without giving it the stupid thought of the day award. :clown:


I'd like too add more but I'm with RG on this one..... :brickwall:

 

[Jarnhamar]

How exactly does more money indicate excessive force?

If anything it would indicate the opposite wouldn't it? More money spent on barricades, cameras, facial recognition programs to identify known shit disturbers, crowd control options.
More expensive and less aggressive things than a bunch of cops and soldiers with sticks and guns.

 

[vonGarvin]

Well, one could take a page from history and pay the Hell's Angels some beer for security.

 

[mellian]

DING< DING< DING........I couldn't let this go by without giving it the stupid thought of the day award. :clown:

Sure, if you single it out of context.  :

I'd like too add more but I'm with RG on this one..... :brickwall:

That is okay, I feel like :brickwall: as well even discussing the subject with folks who like to paintbrush large group of people because of the idiot few, and then say it is enough grounds to treat the large group as criminals themselves simply because they have not or failed to remove themselves...or call the police who are all right there ready to arrest and possibly hit you with a baton just for being too close. How the law is applied during a large protest is different, and everyone is stressed out and high on adrenaline.

Again, my proposal stands to form a group to attend a large protest like Toronto as civilians, even attend some of the planning meetings, and do exactly what you guys suggest to see for yourselves from the other side.  I have only been trying to draw a picture of some of things that goes on and realities of protest organizing as I have been there. Chastise me all you like about being irresponsible, stupid, for "just not getting it", make it seem I am anti-police and an anarchist, but I am sticking to what I know and been trying to share it.

In the end, whatever I say not going to matter anyway, and it is not like I will be at Toronto for G8/G20 (especially as I will be Philadelphia then).