Future Armour

[Colin Parkinson]

Well we could buy Jordain. Frankly some of the western countries need to buy completely outside the traditional suppliers, just because it will put the fear of god into the current suppliers. This would get some attention if we sent a bunch of people to China to consider their equipment. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-09-25/chinas-norinco-is-defense-giant-on-global-growth-path

 

[GK .Dundas]

Or we could go next door to Israel I think I may have found the next PRES armoured recce vehicle.              http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/imis-combat-guard-may-be-the-most-extreme-armored-4x4-e-1595753182

* Honest Sargent Major it followed us back to the armory ........Can we keep it?? *  :nod:


       


  :nod:

 

[a_majoor]

I'd  also have a serious look at South Korea. Their K-21 IFV would have been a very good fit for the CCV competition, especially since it is made of a composite material and provides the protection of a PUMA with a much lower weight. Many South Korean projects are essentially the culmination of numerous American high tech projects that were abandoned for cost/complexity/NIH reasons, but are evidently affordable and rugged enough for the ROK to use.

 

[CougarKing]

Seems rather curious that the US Navy is the service testing a weapon that could be used on future armoured vehicles, unless it's really slated for the US Marine Corps:

Navy Tests New Vehicle-Mounted Laser Weapon
by KRIS OSBORN on SEPTEMBER 26, 2014

The Office of Naval Research is testing a solid-state, vehicle-mounted laser weapon designed to incinerate a range of air and ground targets such as enemy drones, rockets and even IEDs, service officials told Military​.com.

“Air defense covers rockets, artillery, mortars, UAVs, vehicles and IEDs – anything you can kill with a laser. This program is focused on going after the UAV threat. As we move into the future that broader threat set is fair game,” said Lee Mastroianni, program manager for the so-called Ground-Based Air Defense Directed Energy On-the-Move Program, or GBAD,

Using volumetric radar, command and control systems and a laser kill platform, the GBAD is a small, compact mobile weapons system designed to integrate onto a HMMWV or Joint Light Tactical Vehicle, said Mastroianni.

The GBAD is being prepared for a 10-kilowatt laser weapon demonstration in February of next year, Mastroianni explained.

Upcoming demonstrations are likely to be held at the Naval Surface Warfare Center, Dahlgren, Va., China Lake, Calif., or White Sands Missile Range, N.M.

(...SNIPPED

Read more at the source: Defensetech.org

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect the navy are the current SME on the technology. Letting them do the heavy lifting and then scaling it down for mobile ops is likely a good use of money.

 

[GnyHwy]

http://www.popsci.com/russian-invasion-ukraine-spurs-new-german-tank-design-0?dom=fb&src=SOC

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Somewhere around 15 or so years ago, I saw a mockup of a proposal for a Leopard 3 at Wegmann. It had a crewless turret (crew members in the hull) and was much smaller and lighter than either the Leo 1 or 2. Nothing happened with it due to budget cuts and the thought that there was no need for a new tank with the collapse of the USSR.
That article reminded me of the mockup, I think that it wouldn't take much to bring that concept to reality.

 

[a_majoor]

From a cost and logistics perspective, it might be worthwhile for the Germans to consider using the PUMA hull and components as the basis of their next generation AFV. A robotic turret with a 120mm cannon firing advanced ammunition provides the fighting power, and the PUMA with the level C armour package is already as well protected as many current tanks. Without a set of dismounts in the back, there is also room for a great deal of ammunition or other stores, allowing the vehicle to be more self sufficient on the battlefield.

Many of the concepts first mooted in the 1980's, like through tube missiles and "smart" tank ammunition are already in service (LAHAT, for example, allows a tank to engage a target 13+ km away provided there is a spotter, and the Koreans have taken the TERM (Tank Extended Range Munition) top attack round concept and developed it for their K2 tank, so reaching out and touching someone isn't a problem). Tank fire control systems are now supposedly capable of engaging anti tank helicopters should the helicopter expose itself as well, so tanks are still a potent force on the battlefield. Maybe *we* should be doing a bit of a buy in; adding another 100+ units to a production run could make the new tank more affordable on a unit basis for both the Germans and us.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

From a cost and logistics perspective, it might be worthwhile for the Germans to consider using the PUMA hull and components as the basis of their next generation AFV. A robotic turret with a 120mm cannon firing advanced ammunition provides the fighting power, and the PUMA with the level C armour package is already as well protected as many current tanks. Without a set of dismounts in the back, there is also room for a great deal of ammunition or other stores, allowing the vehicle to be more self sufficient on the battlefield.

Many of the concepts first mooted in the 1980's, like through tube missiles and "smart" tank ammunition are already in service (LAHAT, for example, allows a tank to engage a target 13+ km away provided there is a spotter, and the Koreans have taken the TERM (Tank Extended Range Munition) top attack round concept and developed it for their K2 tank, so reaching out and touching someone isn't a problem). Tank fire control systems are now supposedly capable of engaging anti tank helicopters should the helicopter expose itself as well, so tanks are still a potent force on the battlefield. Maybe *we* should be doing a bit of a buy in; adding another 100+ units to a production run could make the new tank more affordable on a unit basis for both the Germans and us.

Seriously? This government is too stupid to even properly procure footwear for our soldiers, they still haven't procured a Sea King replacement, the few ships we have are outdated with no replacements on the horizon.....and the F-35, let's include that clusterfuck also.

Buy in on tanks? We won't see new tanks until everyone in the world is using third generation hovertanks. Then we 'might' get some cast off 1st generation ones.

This government shops like 17 year old prom girls at a new mall. :

 

[GK .Dundas]

Hell I still like a decent replacement for the lynx  and no, the coyote does not qualify .
Seriously? This government is too stupid to even properly procure footwear for our soldiers, they still haven't procured a Sea King replacement, the few ships we have are outdated with no replacements on the horizon.....and the F-35, let's include that clusterfuck also.

Buy in on tanks? We won't see new tanks until everyone in the world is using third generation hovertanks. Then we 'might' get some cast off 1st generation ones.

This government shops like 17 year old prom girls at a new mall. :

 

[a_majoor]

I thought everyone understood that was the plan when I became Imperator  ;D

Until then we will have to leave the "girls" at the mall. Luckily "Dad" has sharply limited their credit cards for now.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I thought everyone understood that was the plan when I became Imperator  ;D

Until then we will have to leave the "girls" at the mall. Luckily "Dad" has sharply limited their credit cards for now.

  I humbly beg your Imperial pardon.  I must have missed a memo or two !

 

[a_majoor]

Close protection systems for vehicles become smaller and lighter (for LAV and even Jeep type vehicles). They are also becoming "smarter" to deal with more sophisticated types of attacks:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2015/01/sensors-linked-to-shotgun-like-systems.html

Sensors linked to shotgun like systems defend against rocket propelled grenades

Trophy (aka ASPRO-A or Windbreaker) is a military active protection system (APS) for vehicles. It intercepts and destroys incoming missiles and rockets with a shotgun-like blast. Trophy is the product of a ten-year collaborative development project between the Rafael Advanced Defense Systems and Israel Aircraft Industries' Elta Group. Its principal purpose is to supplement the armor of light and heavy armored fighting vehicles.

The system became operational in 2009, has since been successfully tested by live fire twice when Israeli tank patrols on the periphery of Gaza were fired on two years ago. The 2014 Gaza campaign was the first time the system is being tested in a face-to-face war against advanced Russian anti-tank rockets. In the 2006 Lebanon War against Hezbollah, missiles penetrated 22 Israeli tanks, destroying several.

The system’s sensors instantly identify a rocket or RPG heading toward it. Without intervention of the crew, the system fires pellets that detonate the rocket at a safe distance from the tank. It also informs the crew of the location from which the incoming rocket was launched, permitting counter-fire.

In 2014, Hamas already knew that the Israeli Iron Dome anti-rocket system and Trophy APS (Active Protection System) anti-missile defense for vehicles worked. Most APS consist of a radar to detect incoming missiles and small rockets to rush out and disable the incoming threat. During the 2014 Gaza war Iron Dome and Trophy kept working reliably. Worse, the Israeli intelligence efforts and air force operations were a lot more effective at finding and destroying rockets before they could be launched than Hamas expected. The only success Hamas has had is the higher (that previous wars) Israeli losses to bobby traps, mines, bombs and ambushes.

Trophy makes Israeli tanks virtually invulnerable and able to do a lot of damage to front line Hamas fighters.

Trophy Light

A new version called "Trophy Light" was unveiled by Rafael Advanced Defense Systems at Britain’s DSEi 2007. While the standard Trophy was designed for main battle tanks, Trophy Light is designed for integration with light and medium armored vehicles, such as Rafael's Golan. The system is also being evaluated for the protection of Israel Navy fast patrol boats, which, like the tanks, are exposed to RPG and missile attacks. It is expected to be about half the weight and volume of the standard Trophy and cost less. According to Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, the development will only require design and engineering work on the launcher/loader and munitions.

Trophy LV

In June 2014, Rafael unveiled Trophy LV, a lighter application of the system designed to offer protection to light military vehicles (less than 8 tons) such as jeeps and 4x4s. It weights 200 kilos, significantly less than other Trophy application
 
The Institute for Defense Analyses analyzed 15 active protection systems, including Trophy and Quick Kill, and found Trophy to be the top system. In March 2006, Pentagon testers at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Dahlgren tested Trophy. An official involved with the tests told NBC that Trophy “worked in every case. The only anomaly was that in one test, the Trophy round hit the RPG’s tail instead of its head. But according to our test criteria, the system was 30 for 30.

The Russian rocket-propelled grenade RPG-30 is designed to overcome these tank defense systems.

In response to concerns that the RPG-30 had fallen into the hands of Hezbollah fighters, Israel Defense reported that the Rafael weapons development authority developed a defense system called the "Trench Coat" that can counteract the RPG-30, by utilizing a 360-degree radar to detect all threats and, in the case of one, launch 17 projectiles, one of which should strike the incoming missiles.

 

[Kirkhill]

All those active defences would be quite the incentive to crew commanders (and gunners) to keep under armour when travelling in company.....

 

[a_majoor]

An interesting proposal; using the composite K-21 hull mounting a new turret with either a 105 or 120mm cannon. Much like the TAM tank (based off the Marder hull) or the CV-90120 (based off the CV 90 hull), this would allow for an integrated family of vehicles with a fairly large degree of logistical commonality. What sets this proposal apart is it is fully amphibious, even when combat loaded:

http://www.military-today.com/tanks/k21_with_xc8.htm

K-21 With XC-8 Turret
Prototype light tank

The new light tank is based on mobile chassis and provides significant direct fire capability

Entered service ?
Crew 3 men
Dimensions and weight
Weight ~ 25 t
Length (gun forward) ~ 8.5 m
Hull length ~ 7 m
Width ~ 3.4 m
Height ~ 3 m
Armament
Main gun 105-mm / 120-mm
ATGW Falarick
Machine guns ?
Elevation range ?
Traverse range 360 degrees
Ammunition load
Main gun ?
ATGW ?
Machine guns ?
Mobility
Engine diesel
Engine power 750 hp
Maximum road speed ~ 70 km/h
Amphibious speed on water ~ 6 km/h
Range ~ 450 km
Maneuverability
Gradient 60%
Side slope 30%
Vertical step ~ 0.8 m
Trench ~ 2.5 m
Fording Amphibious


  The new prototype light tank was revealed in 2013 during IDEX exhibition held in the Abu Dhabi. It was jointly developed by CMI Defence of Belgium and Doosan DST of South Korea.

  The new light tank is a combination of the K-21 infantry fighting vehicle chassis, mated with the newly-developed Cockerill XC-8 lightweight concept turret. This turret uses some technology of the Cockerill CT-CV turret. This new tank can be fitted with 105-mm or 120-mm high-pressure gun. This combination provides significant direct fire capability, based on relatively light and mobile chassis. Due to it's lighter weight this tank is more strategically and tactically mobile, comparing with main battle tanks.

  The Cockerill 105-mm gun uses a wide range of ammunition, to suit tactical situation. It fires all standard NATO 105-mm rounds. Maximum indirect range of fire with HE rounds is up to 10 km. This gun is also compatible with Cockerill Falarick 105 gun-launched anti-tank guided missiles. These missiles are launched in the same manner as ordinary rounds. This missile has a semi-automatic laser guidance with tandem warhead. The Falarick 105 penetrates no less than 550 mm behind ERA. This missile is used to engage heavily-armored vehicles at long ranges.

  The Cockerill 120-mm smoothbore gun is intended to meet a more specialized anti-armor requirement. It fires all standard NATO 120-mm tank ammunition. This gun is also compatible with Falarick 120 gun-launched anti-tank missiles. These missiles have an effective range in excess of 5 km.

  Both guns are fitted with a bustle-mounted autoloader, which permits a three man crew. Both guns are fully-stabilized and use the same advanced fire control system.

  Composite materials were extensively used in the hull design in order to save weight wherever possible. The front arc provides protection against 30-mm armor-piercing rounds. All-round protection is against 14.5-mm armor-piercing rounds and artillery shell splinters. Vehicle is also fitted with automatic fire suppression system.

  The crew includes commander, gunner and driver.

  Vehicle is powered by a turbocharged diesel engine, developing 750 hp. This engine is more powerful than that, used on the K-21 IFV. Vehicle has a hydropneumatic suspension and advanced running gear. The new tank retains it's amphibious capability at full combat weight. Only minimum preparation is required in order to ford water obstacles. Automatic floatation bags are activated before entering the water. On water this tank is powered by it's tracks.

 

[TCBF]

Somewhere around 15 or so years ago, I saw a mockup of a proposal for a Leopard 3 at Wegmann. It had a crewless turret (crew members in the hull) and was much smaller and lighter than either the Leo 1 or 2. Nothing happened with it due to budget cuts and the thought that there was no need for a new tank with the collapse of the USSR.
That article reminded me of the mockup, I think that it wouldn't take much to bring that concept to reality.

- A crewless vehicle would be culturally impossible in the German Army. They would be left with supply depots full of highly polished jackboots and black leather trench coats.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

- A crewless vehicle would be culturally impossible in the German Army. They would be left with supply depots full of highly polished jackboots and black leather trench coats.

Retirement seems to agree with you. You're on a roll tonight.

 

[TCBF]

(In Elvis voice): "Th..thank-you... thank y'all very much".

 

[MilEME09]

Funny you mention the Leopard III, in the latest budget proposal to the German parliament, there is a request for funding for a new MBT program

http://www.popsci.com/russian-invasion-ukraine-spurs-new-german-tank-design-0

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ah history, always repeating itself. One thing about the Ukraine conflict is it will consume a large chunk of the surplus Warsaw pact armour that was up for sale. Plus if Ukraine ever gets it's act together might actually want some of that armour for itself. This will spur the development of newer armour, especially in the medium priced MBT bit.