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FRS vs Mil Issue Radios

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willy said:
Just as long as you're not suggesting that a FRS radio is going to solve these problems for you.  You aren't, are you?  Nor are you hopefully suggesting that the old equipment is more capable than what we use now.  Because I'm not aware of any FRS radio (typically less than 5 watts output) that will get you even 20 Km,

Willy the set of Motorola's that I bought at Crappy Tire in the early fall, (bought for civi use but has be extended to use during training) are 2 watt and have a range of 19.5 km. If you take a trip into Future Shop they have some with longer ranges.

Maybe instead of re inventing the wheel and designing a new comms system we should contract Motorola and get them to designed and build one for us. They do hold quite a few US Mill contracts.

just my 2 cents
 
NL_engineer said:
Willy the set of Motorola's that I bought at Crappy Tire in the early fall, (bought for civi use but has be extended to use during training) are 2 watt and have a range of 19.5 km. If you take a trip into Future Shop they have some with longer ranges.

Maybe instead of re inventing the wheel and designing a new comms system we should contract Motorola and get them to designed and build one for us. They do hold quite a few US Mill contracts.

just my 2 cents

In my opinion, thats 19.5 km with the best battery in absolutely perfect LOS circumstances.  Hardly typical in
actual field handheld situations

Given the description in many posts, its seems radio equipment availability and RF coverage areas are really the problem.
Since the discussion involves 522/521 radios, various handhelds/manpacks, with lack of amps and suitable antennas,
maybe a focus should be put on integrated systems that are engineered to work.  What would be a practical mobile radio
net involving a CP and distributed radios 60 km away?  Seems like the CELEs should get ahold of this.
 
Asking for a range of 60 Km is a bit much for a single radio set, unless it is attached to a honking amplifier and a gigantic mast. For practical purposes the long range will have to be passed on to an RRB, a radio relay UAV, an aerostat (tethered balloon or blimp) or sent via Iridium or IMERSAT.

Col Banks wrote an article in the CAJ 8.3 regarding the American Task Forces in Afghanistan, one thing he noted was that sections could be from 5-30 Km from the Platoon; and the Platoon HQ was often 30+ Km from the Coy HQ. Given the distance and broken nature of the terrain any VHF solution will have a great deal of difficulty, and I wonder if HF would be viable given the combination of radio waves bouncing off the unstable atmosphere and the small receiver "targets" deep in the valleys. Maybe we need to move into Iridium technology in a big way to support widely dispersed operations and overcome the effects of atmosphere and terrain.
 
c_canuk said:
I'm looking for the website I saw it on... thought it was Harris, but now I'm not sure, that made them... the batteries we use are a form factor, and I've seen a couple websites that produce Lithium Ion batteries... I believe the model number is

like this one which I believe is the same used for 521s
https://secure.thalescomminc.com/cart2/tcBatteries.asp

this website sells batteries and chargers, the bb-2590/U battery would fit PRC 138s, 522 etc, and battery model BB-521/U fits 521... one of the 10 way univerals would be lovely to have in sig stores and in the CPs
http://www.milpower.co.uk/

Careful with the 2590 batteries.  The voltages are higher than spec for the radio.  The batteries used in the 138s & 522 is the BB-590/U.  This battery is used in the other countries (including the states) so there is a plethora of ancillary kit available on the net.  I'd love to get my hands on a charger that can handle more than 2 batteries at once!  But I'm not willing to shell the money out of my own pocket yet.  Those tactical chargers aren't terrible but not up to the job in a QM, especially for the reserves.  Parade maybe once or twice a week and its difficult to replace those batteries on the 1 charger we have.

NG_Engineer:  May I ask what type of radios those were?  FRS radios are limited to 1/2 a Watt.  GMRS is 2 Watts in Canada.  513 is 16 Watts as apposed to the 20 stated early.  Most other types of radios (legally  ^-^) require a license to operate.  I'm not trying to imply not to use it. Really, I'm just curious.

I personally believe that the radios we have are quite good (even those hated 521s).  But there is a HUGE problem with availability of the right equipment.   Recceguy's problem definitely sounded like an RRB would be a good solution, not necessarily more powerful radios.  And you don't need high powered radios to talk far in all situations.  I've talked to Vancouver from Edmonton on a 138 manpack (connected to a B&W antenna).  Of course HF is very dependant on atmospheric conditions.  113s are even more rare which is really unfortunate even though they're old.  Being UHF (like FRS) having them would certainly be advantageous in many situations, especially in urban environments.

I've been wondering lately, with the large increase in personnel the CF is hoping to attract... thats a lot of extra kit we'll need to purchase.  I hope people aren't planning to stretch equipment even more.  I hope if they do decide to purchase more radios that they at least get enough to meet current requirements!
 
Good point Carbon... though I think the allowable voltage range the radios will accept is 12-40 volts... maybe a tech could confirm that? though I'm sure we can also get the BB-590/U batteries from these companies as well.

I suspect that RRB with whips might help out a lot in RecceGuys case, as I suspect he's armoured Recce and they cover 60 km in an hour or so... the RRB would have to be on the move... but that could be done. he also need vehicle trays... battery power limits his options

 
Carbon-14,
They are GMRS, and can you please spell my screen name properly :threat:
 
a_majoor said:
Asking for a range of 60 Km is a bit much for a single radio set, unless it is attached to a honking amplifier and a gigantic mast. For practical purposes the long range will have to be passed on to an RRB, a radio relay UAV, an aerostat (tethered balloon or blimp) or sent via Iridium or IMERSAT.

It's funny, I started thinking about a UHF radio with a whip antenna tethered to a balloon while browsing through this thread... it's actually an extremely viable idea, just not practical considersing the availability of the INMARSAT, particularly considering the current INMARSAT (Which costs somthing along the lines of $12-15 per minute) is being replaced by the Ottercom Storm ($0.89 per minute) and the troops in afghanistan will shortly be recieving Harris Multiband FALCON II radios, capable of a variety of comms, including HF, VHF and UHF, and supposedly are capable of sattelite comms while on the move.

Col Banks wrote an article in the CAJ 8.3 regarding the American Task Forces in Afghanistan, one thing he noted was that sections could be from 5-30 Km from the Platoon; and the Platoon HQ was often 30+ Km from the Coy HQ. Given the distance and broken nature of the terrain any VHF solution will have a great deal of difficulty, and I wonder if HF would be viable given the combination of radio waves bouncing off the unstable atmosphere and the small receiver "targets" deep in the valleys. Maybe we need to move into Iridium technology in a big way to support widely dispersed operations and overcome the effects of atmosphere and terrain.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with HF, it's definitly viable in this case, that's why we've got man-packs.. there are limitations though... I'll give a quick run-down of factors applicable in this situation...

HF signals travel in two ways (They do so simulatenously, it's just the nature of the wave). They produce a ground wave and a sky wave. The ground wave travels in a line along the ground, the same as a VHF wave. The sky wave travels up to the sky, bounces off the ionosphere, travels back to the ground, bounces off the ground and continues this cycle.

One major limitation with HF is that propgation (How well the wave travels) is poor at night, sometimes a frequency that works well during the day will not work at all at night (It's entirely possible to have no frequencies in your list of freqs that work), though this only applies to sky-waves, ground waves will still work. Ground waves are limited roughly to line of site (Not entirely true, but true enough).

That being said, the 138 man pack is capable of a slightly higher power out-put then the 522 manpacks, and as such, can push a ground wave further, so assuming you're in range of the ground wave, the above limitation is not always a problem.

Some HF freqs may also be in use elsewhere around the world, and because of the potential for global propogation of a signal, it's entirely possible other users may interfere (Translation: When we're working with HF, sometimes we'll hear foreign news, music, conversations, all sorts of strange things, even in the freqs assigned to us)

ALE (Automatic Link Establishment) overcomes some of these problems, by automatically selecting the best freq from a list of programmed freqs, but it's slow somtimes...

Most (All) strategic HF dets (Army dets, as well as naval ships) also use a sattelite backup (Often INMARSAT, don't know if there's still any heavy sattelite dets) in case HF means are unavailable, or for priority traffic.

A hand-held sat phone (I am sure there are some out there with embedded encryption, none in the system that I'm aware of, but there's plenty of stuff in the system I'm not aware of) and a 138 man-pack may be an option for patrols far from the CP, not always as quick as VHF comms, but still, it may be viable.
 
Thanks for the clarification, my understanding of HF was a bit off. The point about signals "skipping" was the one I was trying to make, but the ALE was something I had never heard of before.

The other matter of global propagation is also a potential problem, satellite links like Iridium, IMERSAT or the Ottercom Storm bypas those problems, but now you are depending on some systems that are a bit *ahem* hard to make adjustments to (the satelites), and might be running into bandwidth issues as well.
 
"skip" is another thing all together.

Ground waves travel in a straight path. If there's an antenna in that path, the ground wave will hit it.

With a sky-wave, the wave travels up and down, and there will be "skip-zones" where the signal doesn't exist, the solution can somtimes be as simple as moving the antenna 5 feet to the left or right, or adding or removing a section of the mast.

Global propogation isn't a major issue with HF, as generally you're issued more then one frequency, if one frequency is no good, you use another freq.

The biggest problem with the 138 manpacks is that embedded encryption was never purchased, and we have to use external means, though it may be that we need to either buy the crypto cards for the 138s (If that's still possible) or buy more of the new radios that they're procuring from Harris (In fact, buy lots and lots of them, and use them to slowly replace and phase out all the other radios except the 521, which can be phased out by somthing else) with an embedded crypto card.

Not sure what you mean by adjustments or band-width issues. If you want to send data, they're all capable of it, and if you want to send voice, all capable of it And plenty of room for traffic of multiple call-signs. No embedded encryption again, but I'm sure a hand-held sat phone can be procured with embedded encryption. Only major issue is as far as I know, with all models, you need to have a dish (The storm's dish is maybe 1'x1'x2", very reasonably sized, I'm sure there are handheld models out there with smaller dishes), and that dish needs to be aimed at the sattelite (Takes a couple of minutes to set up).

I should note that I'm not 100% familiar with sattelite comms (Reasonable familiarity) so I may be talking out of my rear at any point.
 
I should note, there are a bunch of other inherrent limitations to HF comms, just as there are limitations with every form of comms. If you want more information, ask the questions here, or PM me. If you're really interested, I may be able to dig out some reading material.
 
There is an encrypted Iridium, but it is a POS and there are issues with the crypto - it cannot speak directly to a STU-III but must go through the American gateway in... Hawaii (??) and get re-encrypted to STU-III. It can however go directly to the SWT or Sectera cell phone. Data rates are CRAP, less than an Iridium (which is 64k - crypto overhead.)

If the CF bought a LOT of 117f and MBITRs or the Harris RF-5800M-HH then we could replace the entire suite of IRIS radios, minus the 138, in one shot. If you go through the links that I posted earlier, you will see how capable these things are.

Satcom is good, but the portable stuff is not extremely capable (I refer to Inmarsat and Ottercom - you can have portable 'heavy' sat in transit cases) The MTs that we use have been useful but with IP, it is possible to do so much more. The MTs are still using 'circuits' they break the 1 meg pipe into segments - 128 k for DWAN, 4 x 8k for voice....
 
How well would these Harris radios play with the IRIS CI boxes?

OK, you'd have to reflash the CIs to reflect whatever differences there are in the wire protocals and data packets (so I don't expect a CI to work out of the box) but is there anything that would prevent being able to use a CI with a Harris?

DG
 
RecceDG said:
How well would these Harris radios play with the IRIS CI boxes?

OK, you'd have to reflash the CIs to reflect whatever differences there are in the wire protocals and data packets (so I don't expect a CI to work out of the box) but is there anything that would prevent being able to use a CI with a Harris?

Harris is a manufacturer, makes all sorts of nice radios (Including several of the radios we already use).

The 138 and the UHF radio (Which I'm fairly confident is also made by Harris, I've never actually used one, only seen them in the labs) are both already capable of interfacing with the TCCCS system via an item called a "RAU" (Radio Access Unit).

It's not a problem to build a RAU to interface the new radios with TCCCS, but whether it exists already, I have no idea.

Additional plus for the Harris radios, they're pretty simple to program. Wouldn't take as long to teach as a 522, and because it's all based around text menus instead of memorizing bizzare number cominations, troops are less likely to suffer from skill-fade if they don't use it regularly.
 
Personally, I say that IRIS/TCCCS should be scrapped. We should invest in JTRS and Blueforce tracker. Or buy what the British are getting with Bowman. Software based radios. If you need your radio to talk to SINCGARS, then you just load the SINCGARS waveform.

IRIS/TCCCS was a good idea, but the implementation was CRAP and we are now stuck with a lame system. I've heard whispers that JSR pulled out all of their legacy gear because no one trusted IRIS and could use the gear. I've also heard that the comm res units have been having a horrible time with the gear - not enough to go around, the units aren't fully equipped and its only when all the units in a commgp come together that they have a full system.

Plus whats going to happen when we need MORE IRIS gear? The assembly lines aren't running anymore...


http://jtrs.army.mil/sections/technicalinformation/fset_technical_sca.html
http://www.quad-a.org/chapters/Drum/blue_force_tracker_and_army_avia.htm
 
Additional plus for the Harris radios, they're pretty simple to program. Wouldn't take as long to teach as a 522, and because it's all based around text menus instead of memorizing bizzare number cominations, troops are less likely to suffer from skill-fade if they don't use it regularly.

Uh, with the CI everything is text, the number combinations are not manditory but when you are really up to speed on the CI can allow you to configure 4 radios in seconds. Which would not be possible on the 138 where you have to confirm the default for every bit flip in the damn menu.

as for the face plate of the 522, your only need to know up 9 and a few others... inconvienient yes... but it hides all the really complex stuff that we would be deploying via DTD or radop only from the regular users. The 138 has about 1000 mystery variables that no one really knows what they do so we just plug in whats in the CEOI and hope for the best, as we can't bypass them like we can with the CIs. Thats also part of the problem when we teach the 522, we teach the Basic Infanteer how to hop, fxs all thats stuff that they will never need/use and it's information overload.

I've also heard that the comm res units have been having a horrible time with the gear - not enough to go around, the units aren't fully equipped and its only when all the units in a commgp come together that they have a full system.

thats because the Comm Res Groups are supposed to deploy as a single formation now, not 5 or 6 mini groups. There is no time that a reserve comm unit would deploy and not it's sister units, so it's silly to train that way, and a waste of resources... keep in mind that my Res unit is the first in Canada to hop with RRB and Crypto successfully... why cause instead of itching about the equipment we sucked it up and figured out how to use it, and looking back it's not that difficult and if you know what you are doing, its pretty reliable though we do need more of it in the system.
 
c_canuk said:
Uh, with the CI everything is text, the number combinations are not manditory but when you are really up to speed on the CI can allow you to configure 4 radios in seconds. Which would not be possible on the 138 where you have to confirm the default for every bit flip in the damn menu.

Assuming that you have no other job than generator maintenance and radio operator, this is a great idea. Many of us have to function as soldiers as well though, and under adverse conditions, where the technical nuances of the 522 are not appreciated as much as a radio that works would be.

as for the face plate of the 522, your only need to know up 9 and a few others... inconvienient yes... but it hides all the really complex stuff that we would be deploying via DTD or radop only from the regular users. The 138 has about 1000 mystery variables that no one really knows what they do so we just plug in whats in the CEOI and hope for the best, as we can't bypass them like we can with the CIs. Thats also part of the problem when we teach the 522, we teach the Basic Infanteer how to hop, fxs all thats stuff that they will never need/use and it's information overload.
Most infantry signallers are well versed in the use of DTDs, and since all operational comms are encrypted now that includes "regular users".

Channel hopping is pretty basic stuff, and used frequently, fixed super was and is a stupid idea, and thankfully is no longer taught to most cbt arms troops.

The 138 is far easier to use than the 522 - most guys can figure it out on their own - lets see that happen with a 522!

thats because the Comm Res Groups are supposed to deploy as a single formation now, not 5 or 6 mini groups. There is no time that a reserve comm unit would deploy and not it's sister units, so it's silly to train that way, and a waste of resources... keep in mind that my Res unit is the first in Canada to hop with RRB and Crypto successfully... why cause instead of itching about the equipment we sucked it up and figured out how to use it, and looking back it's not that difficult and if you know what you are doing, its pretty reliable though we do need more of it in the system.
Not very impressive, considering that a bunch of us mouth breathing information overloaded infanteers you hold in such disdain can accomplish this....
 
Not very impressive, considering that a bunch of us mouth breathing information overloaded infanteers you hold in such disdain can accomplish this....
Thanks GO!!!, I didn't want to say anything... I think that 2 CMBG units have been doing that since 1 RCR did trials in... 1999?
 
signalsguy said:
Thanks GO!!!, I didn't want to say anything... I think that 2 CMBG units have been doing that since 1 RCR did trials in... 1999?

MMM....the taste of foot >:D

Actually, on SG 05, when with the 3 ARR, one of the squadrons Sgts asked me to give some of his cpl's a crash course in programming the CI's and Rads in their Sqn CP Rad Van...And, impressing me, they caught on right fast.

Also, we did have crypto and Freq Hop going, including at least 2 RRBs on the Bde command net...so The mouth-breather (sorry Go!!!, couldn't resist) is right when he says it's not that impressive.
 
Not very impressive, considering that a bunch of us mouth breathing information overloaded infanteers you hold in such disdain can accomplish this....

ok

1) I don't hold you in disdain and if you think I do you better check your inferiority complex. The fact is a weekend crash course is too short to teach all the nuances and get a platoon of any person, sigs or not, up to speed on radios.

2) first you complain that it's too hard to use, and has too many features that you don't use, and that you don't use crypto and DTDs are too hard

3) then when I say suck it up and learn the kit, then mention how my unit was the first to get over the emotional loss of the old kit and work with the new, you say you're not impressed with the fact that my unit can and does use all those features regularly because you guys do and it's not that hard.. which you just previously said you can't/don't use cause it's too hard or unnecessary.

btw on the last 2 day crash course I taught, a whole platoon of Res Infantry learned how to use the 521 and 522, we did a practical PO where I royally screwed with every radio, and somehow they all managed to get comms, why are you having so much trouble? Certainly you are better than the Res that you hold in disdain in other conversations.

why don't you either pick one side of the argument or GO!!!! away

I don't expect infanteers to be as proficient at comms as I am, because that's not infantry's primary role, but it is mine, you wouldn't expect a bunch of rad ops to be as proficient in section attacks would you?

the problem with TCCCS is not that it's too hard to use, the problem is a bunch of people who can somehow manage to use every electronic gadget under the sun, some how maintain a connection to the internet, but itch because the radio's we use in 2000+ are not as simple as radios designed when tubes were new technology. Oh and if you added the components that enabled our legacy kit to do what the 522 does it would weigh about a ton, and be more complex than the 522 ever could be.

suck it up, grow up, learn the kit, move on. If you can use a computer effectively a 522 should be a joke.

If you have suggestions to improve the kit beyond "it has more buttons that Vietnam era kit boo hoo" pass them up and maybe you'll see them incorporated, in the mean time stop pinning for the 77 set that was no more reliable than the 522 (at least you know when the 522 isn't working) cause it isn't comming back, and I would like to think that Infanteers would rather spend money on bullets and training instead of buying a new suite of radios we don't need that do what we already can, or less.
 
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