- Reaction score
- 21,850
- Points
- 1,360
Decision rendered in the MS Middlesmiss case.
Unlocked for responsible contribution to the thread.
The Milnet.ca Staff
Unlocked for responsible contribution to the thread.
The Milnet.ca Staff
Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]
- Thread starter KnuckleHead
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 771
- Points
- 1,240
This decision is making the rounds and I received a copy with attached notes this morning. While the issue revolved around two idea, "mandatory parade" and "pay from personal funds", the finding was on the issue of disobeying an order. The thread is over two years old, but it appears the topic is alive and kicking.
- Reaction score
- 27,197
- Points
- 1,090
Interesting implications; if a mess dinner is a parade, it therefore follows that a Class A reservist attending that parade is entitled to pay. If it is a voluntary social function, a member would not have been entitled to pay.
The question of class A officers and NCMs being excluded from panel considerations is ripe for appeal; as Primary Reservists can be called out on service (unlike their CIC/Ranger and Supp Res brethren) there is no insurmountable obstacle to including them. Their explict exclusion from consideration in the panel was commented on by the judge - the Court Martial Administrator made testimony that erred in fact on that matter, and unfortunately was not challenged by Defence Counsel. I think that issue will be revisited in the future.
I suspect, however, that this case will proceed to the court martial appeal court. Counsel for MS Middlemiss raised a number of preliminary motions that were dismissed that could be reopened, and the verdict could be reviewed (as with the Lt(N) who refused to remove his headdress for prayer - convicted at court-martial, with it completely overturned on appeal and, frankly, the judge was spanked left, right and centre for his verdict by the CMAC panel). So I wouldn't get too worked up about it yet.
The question of class A officers and NCMs being excluded from panel considerations is ripe for appeal; as Primary Reservists can be called out on service (unlike their CIC/Ranger and Supp Res brethren) there is no insurmountable obstacle to including them. Their explict exclusion from consideration in the panel was commented on by the judge - the Court Martial Administrator made testimony that erred in fact on that matter, and unfortunately was not challenged by Defence Counsel. I think that issue will be revisited in the future.
I suspect, however, that this case will proceed to the court martial appeal court. Counsel for MS Middlemiss raised a number of preliminary motions that were dismissed that could be reopened, and the verdict could be reviewed (as with the Lt(N) who refused to remove his headdress for prayer - convicted at court-martial, with it completely overturned on appeal and, frankly, the judge was spanked left, right and centre for his verdict by the CMAC panel). So I wouldn't get too worked up about it yet.
- Reaction score
- 4,663
- Points
- 1,160
dapaterson said:
I was always paid a half day for every mess dinner I attended as a Cl A reservist, and always came out ahead over the cost of the mess dinner.
At CFSCE during our opening address for my QL6a, we were given a copy of a brief prepared by a JAG outlining the lawfulness of ordering pers to pay for a mess dinner and compel attendance. It was a 4 page document, and made a lot of sense. I believe I kept a copy of the PDF somewhere, I'll have to dig it up and host it somewhere.
It seems MS Middlemiss got more than he bargained for, $35 and a hissy fit ended up costing $500.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
I still don't think the question has been answered. Yes, your CoC can order you to attend a mess function, but can they order you to spend your own money to be there? I don't think there's anything in the CFAOs to give a definitive answer on this... anyone?
- Reaction score
- 2,827
- Points
- 940
Note: the following point contributes nothing to this discussion.
Mentioned only in case you're a lawyer, "barrack-room" or otherwise.
So...1/2 day pay, minus "cost of the mess dinner" (dinner + bar bill), still equalled a profit??
Pretty lame in the bar bill department I'd say...even for a Jimmie! >
Mentioned only in case you're a lawyer, "barrack-room" or otherwise.
PuckChaser said:
So...1/2 day pay, minus "cost of the mess dinner" (dinner + bar bill), still equalled a profit??
Pretty lame in the bar bill department I'd say...even for a Jimmie! >
- Reaction score
- 4,663
- Points
- 1,160
Journeyman said:Note: the following point contributes nothing to this discussion.
Mentioned only in case you're a lawyer, "barrack-room" or otherwise.
So...1/2 day pay, minus "cost of the mess dinner" (dinner + bar bill), still equalled a profit??
Pretty lame in the bar bill department I'd say...even for a Jimmie! >
Oh... I never count drinks into the equation. No one makes you drink, its just more fun if the servers fill both of your wine glasses up and you collect the port glasses from people who didn't show up. >
- Reaction score
- 114
- Points
- 680
If you read the judgement very carefully, you'll note the comment "Captain Whelan told Master Seaman Middlemiss that, "the Mess Dinner was an official function and that as such it was a parade that he must attend."
There are Mess Dinners held which are not of "official function" status - which means the entire cost is borne by the member; usually these Mess Dinners are not treated as parades.
Then, there are Mess Dinners for which "official function" status is granted. In those cases, the dinners can (and usually are) treated as parades. As well, with the "official unction" authority having been granted and signed off on, labour costs etc are offest with Crown funds so the entire cost is not borne by the members attending. And, it seems to me that 35 bucks is rather cheap if it was indeed the "entire cost" (including labour portion etc) if this were not an "official function with Unit costs offest by the Crown.
It is possible, that the MS's Unit had the function designated as an "official function" (while the other Unit did not). That is done at the discretion of the CO and is fully within their authority; there is nothing unlawful about it.
Either way, I've got a big one coming up here and I've got the "official function" paperwork back and signed off this week in my mailbox to take over to the Mess. And, this conversation is eerily similar to one which I had with one of my subordinates who doesn't 'wish' to attend. In our case here with the upcoming dinner, it is deemed as an "official Function" for Jr Ranks, and Sgts & WOs - ergo our costs will be offset by susidies. The Officers attending will not have Mess susidies applied as it is not an "official function" being held within their Mess proper. The Junior Ranks Mess here allows subsidies to be paid on behalf of their members attending Mess Dinners outside of their own Mess purely due to the fact that the Jr Ranks don't have Mess Dinners in their Mess.
Although I've already explained to them the difference bewteen a Mess Dinner which has been granted "official function" status and one which is not designated as such ... I'll be sure to pass them a print out of the ruling in this case.
There are Mess Dinners held which are not of "official function" status - which means the entire cost is borne by the member; usually these Mess Dinners are not treated as parades.
Then, there are Mess Dinners for which "official function" status is granted. In those cases, the dinners can (and usually are) treated as parades. As well, with the "official unction" authority having been granted and signed off on, labour costs etc are offest with Crown funds so the entire cost is not borne by the members attending. And, it seems to me that 35 bucks is rather cheap if it was indeed the "entire cost" (including labour portion etc) if this were not an "official function with Unit costs offest by the Crown.
It is possible, that the MS's Unit had the function designated as an "official function" (while the other Unit did not). That is done at the discretion of the CO and is fully within their authority; there is nothing unlawful about it.
Either way, I've got a big one coming up here and I've got the "official function" paperwork back and signed off this week in my mailbox to take over to the Mess. And, this conversation is eerily similar to one which I had with one of my subordinates who doesn't 'wish' to attend. In our case here with the upcoming dinner, it is deemed as an "official Function" for Jr Ranks, and Sgts & WOs - ergo our costs will be offset by susidies. The Officers attending will not have Mess susidies applied as it is not an "official function" being held within their Mess proper. The Junior Ranks Mess here allows subsidies to be paid on behalf of their members attending Mess Dinners outside of their own Mess purely due to the fact that the Jr Ranks don't have Mess Dinners in their Mess.
Although I've already explained to them the difference bewteen a Mess Dinner which has been granted "official function" status and one which is not designated as such ... I'll be sure to pass them a print out of the ruling in this case.
S
sandyson
Guest
Mess dinners are part of the duties of leaders, because while they should enjoy themselves, they also have "work" to be done. (Same on "civie" street.) All officers but especially new ones must introduce themselves to each and every visitor with at least a brief conversation. These dinners are social events but they are also ones of liaison--especially for the militia. You want the military guests to leave with a favourable opinion of the unit as well as yourself. These are the ordinary officers and NCOs who run courses and exercises. They allocate resources. You need their support as do your soldiers. This is also opportunity to take some measure of them. Your CO probably attends many of these dinners--more than s/he wants to. Your job when s/he is hosting is to support him/her. Your dinner must be enjoyable for the guests, therefore I suggest the adage for 'happy hour' attendance is appropriate: All officers will attend: and all officers will be happy".
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
I have not been to a mess dinner where I have not had an absolute blast - and that includes serving at them as an extra back in the day!! Extras? Please let me serve the mess dinner!! Oh the stories I could tell - - did ya hear about the time the Trucker (who incidentally was a server) got drunk in wine and crashed into the 12 piece brass band? Yea, that a mess story...
Definitely worth the 50 bucks - and don't forget a pen!!
Definitely worth the 50 bucks - and don't forget a pen!!
I had a rule about social obligations-if ordered to be there it was a parade period. Mess Dinners are parades. There were occasions when I was out of the area on a TD or leave etc but I went. I do know that some of the non drinkers in the crowd paid less for the cost of admission ie meal only.
I staffed a redress for Comd 33CBG some years ago where a Sr NCO in one Bde unit was objecting to being forced to attend a unit dinner. My conclusion, as above. I might add I always got paid a half day's pay for attending Mess Dinners during the reserve portion of my career, which more than covered the cost of the dinner. If it involves wearing a uniform of any kind, it is a duty, and not a mere social obligation, and in the case of reservists, they should get paid.
On the other hand if an invitation was issued with an RSVP it was perfectly acceptable to deline with a thank you, no excuse required. This came about because a divorced former CO "invited" via engraved invite complete with RSVP all the Captains in the unit to dinner in the mess which in those days would have set the cheap SOB back about $72 @ $4 a head, then billed us all individually for the meal on our mess bills.
There was a situation as a reservist where I was invited to a dinner, accepted the invite and was expected to wear S3. I arranged for two people from my team to attend on TD as well, which left no doubt in my mind that it was a duty event. The Bde COS declined to pay a half day pay, so I ended up hosting the Comd of LFC at my table in a business suit and did not feel the least bit guilty about leaving the minute dinner was done with appropriate excusal to attend another longstanding social obligation. Dining with anorexic "Biathalon Bruce" was not my idea of fun anyways.
I staffed a redress for Comd 33CBG some years ago where a Sr NCO in one Bde unit was objecting to being forced to attend a unit dinner. My conclusion, as above. I might add I always got paid a half day's pay for attending Mess Dinners during the reserve portion of my career, which more than covered the cost of the dinner. If it involves wearing a uniform of any kind, it is a duty, and not a mere social obligation, and in the case of reservists, they should get paid.
On the other hand if an invitation was issued with an RSVP it was perfectly acceptable to deline with a thank you, no excuse required. This came about because a divorced former CO "invited" via engraved invite complete with RSVP all the Captains in the unit to dinner in the mess which in those days would have set the cheap SOB back about $72 @ $4 a head, then billed us all individually for the meal on our mess bills.
There was a situation as a reservist where I was invited to a dinner, accepted the invite and was expected to wear S3. I arranged for two people from my team to attend on TD as well, which left no doubt in my mind that it was a duty event. The Bde COS declined to pay a half day pay, so I ended up hosting the Comd of LFC at my table in a business suit and did not feel the least bit guilty about leaving the minute dinner was done with appropriate excusal to attend another longstanding social obligation. Dining with anorexic "Biathalon Bruce" was not my idea of fun anyways.
- Reaction score
- 16,910
- Points
- 1,010
The point of this Court Martial decision was not the Mess Dinner per se- it was that Commanding Officers have wide latitude for issuing lawful commands...and commands that are not manifestly unlawful are therefore lawful. Now, a debate could be made about how much common sense an order contains, but the lesson here is that, if you object to an order- it is still an order, no matter how much you object. This Master Seaman would have had a much nicer outcome by attending the dinner and then redressing, vice ending up with a conduct sheet and a fine.
The military is not an a la carte menu- you cannot just pick the bits of it that you like and ignore the rest. Unless you are ordered to bayonet babies, the lesson here is- follow orders.
The military is not an a la carte menu- you cannot just pick the bits of it that you like and ignore the rest. Unless you are ordered to bayonet babies, the lesson here is- follow orders.
- Reaction score
- 5
- Points
- 430
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