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Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]

Pusser said:
I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer (perhaps not everything, but at least some of it).

It simply doesn't appeal to them? Just because someone enjoys spending their night doing X doesn't mean that I too should also enjoy doing the same thing. We all have different pass times, mine doesn't include the mess. You not comprehending why someone doesn't want to do the same things you do isn't justification for forcing them to do it or that you position is more logical. If anything it's indicative of having poor judgement as to understanding what others want, it perpetuates the mess being "required".

Pusser said:
If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.  If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.

No, my problem is that I'm forced to pay to be a part of a organization that offers me nothing in return that appeals to me. Similarly, Sally's book club every Wednesday night also doesn't offer me anything I want. The solution isn't to join her book club and convince her to make it a shooting club, it's to not joint he club in the first place and do what I want with my own time. Hanging out on base has zero appeal to me, there are many other places I could spend time with friends without worrying about saving a buck or two per beer and playing shuffle board.
 
I've found that the departure gift I get from Messes more than or close to makes up for the dues I paid in the time there. 
 
I wonder how many people joined the CAF and didn't know that they would be required to join a Mess at their status and pay dues?
 
[quote author=Pusser]  I truly don't understand why anyone would not take advantage of the things messes offer [/quote]
So I can pay $60 dollars for a meal where I
1. Help set it up
2. Told what to wear, where to sit and when I'm allowed to take a piss, and
3. Help clean it up when it's done.

::)

If you don't take advantage of what the mess offers, that's your problem.
Ridiculous. I'm paying for it against my wishes, it's hardly "taking advantage of it".

If you don't like what the mess has to offer, get involved and bring about the things you want.  It's not that hard.
Or we could make it volunteer so all the people that love going to the mess aren't benefiting on the backs of those who don't.

 
It is a bit ironic but that the military forces members to belong to a mess and to go to mess dinners and then everyone feigns outrage when people get drunk and behave like drunks. 

It seems like you can’t have a mess dinner without a charge parade the next week.
 
Jarnhamar said:
So I can pay $60 dollars for a meal where I
1. Help set it up
2. Told what to wear, where to sit and when I'm allowed to take a piss, and
3. Help clean it up when it's done.

My experience with RCAF mess/Sqn dinners are they are actually a pretty good time and a little more relaxed with stuff like bathroom breaks.  If someone wants to go to the bathroom, the last Sqn Dinner I attended, they had to approach the PMC and ask permission.  The PMC (along with the HCol...and old school Navigator) decided what the 'price' was.  It might be a song, or something entertaining and it usually is pretty funny.  I recall 3 techs who asked at the same time and off they went to the bathroom...holding hands and skipping with big smiles on their faces in front of the whole Sqn.  It was probably the funniest thing I'd seen in years, 3 grown men skipping along like Grade 2 school girls with that "OMF I need to go!" look on their faces.



 
I really couldn't care less if the messes live or die.  But seeing as how little they are used anymore, outside of forced fun, I think its time we let members decide if they want to pay into a mess or not; and let the messes live or die on their own merit.  Who knows that may actually revitalize some of them.



 
Eye In The Sky said:
My experience with RCAF mess/Sqn dinners are they are actually a pretty good time and a little more relaxed with stuff like bathroom breaks.  If someone wants to go to the bathroom, the last Sqn Dinner I attended, they had to approach the PMC and ask permission.  The PMC (along with the HCol...and old school Navigator) decided what the 'price' was.  It might be a song, or something entertaining and it usually is pretty funny.  I recall 3 techs who asked at the same time and off they went to the bathroom...holding hands and skipping with big smiles on their faces in front of the whole Sqn.  It was probably the funniest thing I'd seen in years, 3 grown men skipping along like Grade 2 school girls with that "OMF I need to go!" look on their faces.
That's been my experience lately as well. The idea of holding your water until the speeches was kind of silly. Most of the mess dinners I've attended have allowed people to go the heads when required.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
My experience with RCAF mess/Sqn dinners are they are actually a pretty good time and a little more relaxed with stuff like bathroom breaks. 

I understand mileage varies of course. I would be looking at getting stuck on duty for a weekend (away from the fam) if I took a piss outside of scheduled times.

In my experience (and what I've picked up from others) mess functions cater to the top tier of the respective messes and mostly everyone else is there for seat fillers.
 
Oh come now, surely troops pissing in wine bottles under the table is far more dignified than politely excusing themselves for a brief absence.

Though to be fair I knew the military had turned a corner towards modernity when I witnessed a female member make use of the wine bottle at the table in lieu of excusing herself before the loyal toast. I didn’t see that one coming.
 
Wow, still the mess arguments.

CAF regulations does require us all to belong to a mess.

It is the mess membership that decides we are required to pay mess dues and sets the amount laid out in the mess constitution.  If you don't want to pay then make the motion at the next mess meeting that mess dues not be charged. Doubt it will pass and be approved by the mess CO but worth a try.  Refusing to pay is certainly an option that will work for a short period.  Then the mess does up an outstanding mess dues notice to the CO who orders anything over a year to be deducted from your pay.  He may also request the RSM look into admin counselling in regards to your lack of paying outstanding debts.

It is the unit that orders us to attend mess dinners however they can not order us to pay.  Feel perfectly free to say no, not paying, and attend without partaking of the food or drinks.

CRA does not recognize mess dues as union dues and tax deductible.

Part I do not agree with is Officers ordered to purchase mess kit at their own expense.  If it is mandatory then it should be covered for them.

 
CountDC said:
Part I do not agree with is Officers ordered to purchase mess kit at their own expense.  If it is mandatory then it should be covered for them.

Part of me wants to go the other way and pay for all of my uniforms.  The trouble with the current system is we are required to wear the plastic crap manufactured by the lowest bidder.  Given the choice, I would opt for higher quality (which leads to higher comfort and longer lasting wear).  I rather like the American practice where all uniforms are purchased (enlisted receive an allowance for this) and are available in the Uniform Shop (usually connected to the PX).  Everything for sale has to meet the minimum standard, but higher quality items are also available.  It would be nice if Logistik offered the same option.  I have occasionally been spoken to for wearing nicer things.
 
can't have you looking better than the rest  Uniformity to the lowest bidder must be upheld. 

Personally I would like to do away with many of the practices we have in place and change to a more open funding practice.

Uniform allowance that would actually cover the purchase of the basic requirement every X years and a small maintenance one monthly.  Want the fancier stuff then you pay for it.

Lump sum move - CFM is $50k so here you are now RFD on 30 Jul.  You decide everything based on the money you are allotted, no claim required.  Fly first class, garbage everything and buy new, whatever. Go over the allotted amount though and it's out of your pocket.

No income tax - bit ridiculous to say here is $5k a month but we are taking back $1k for taxes.  Make our pay tax free and save everyone the hassle. 

A few years back in dealing with billings between CAF and an other government agency we reached a mutual agreement to use CFM rather than actuals.  The dollar amount at the end of the year was a relatively small difference and for the workload/man hours/hassle required to do actuals it was considered worth it.

Of course none of these will ever happen as the government and public would see it that we are getting big money for nothing.  Sure for some individuals this would be the case but the overall effect may be a saving.
 
CountDC said:
Wow, still the mess arguments.

CAF regulations does require us all to belong to a mess.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that it's a rule, they're discussing the merits of that rule existing. If every problem encountered was responded with the circular reasoning that it exists because it says it needs to, we'd never adapt and progress.
 
CountDC said:
can't have you looking better than the rest  Uniformity to the lowest bidder must be upheld.

Dogmatic uniformity is a relatively recent thing.  Prior to 1968, officers in all three service were required to buy their own uniforms and so there was bound to be variances.  Other ranks often purchased "tiddly rigs" for special occasions.  Even with the old green uniform, people would sneak in items of higher quality.  I think it was only with the DEU that we starting cracking down on this stuff.

Personally I would like to do away with many of the practices we have in place and change to a more open funding practice.

Uniform allowance that would actually cover the purchase of the basic requirement every X years and a small maintenance one monthly.  Want the fancier stuff then you pay for it.

Agreed, especially since we finally sorted out the tax implications - and then cancelled CUA...

Lump sum move - CFM is $50k so here you are now RFD on 30 Jul.  You decide everything based on the money you are allotted, no claim required.  Fly first class, garbage everything and buy new, whatever. Go over the allotted amount though and it's out of your pocket.

We actually looked at that.  Be careful what you wish for.  The 1990s' Cost Move Project, which only covered meals, incidentals and accommodations, proved disastrous and the analysis of the proposal to extend it to include shipment of F&E concluded that it would get even worse. One of the biggest problems with the concept was that unless the money is tied to specific items, it would taxable - merely shifting the administration from Claims Offices or an IRP contractor (e.g. Brookfield) to the member and his/her tax return

No income tax - bit ridiculous to say here is $5k a month but we are taking back $1k for taxes.  Make our pay tax free and save everyone the hassle. 

This would really only work for government employees (i.e. folks who pay taxes to the same organization that pays their salaries).  This would likely lead to a PR disaster (military people don't pay taxes!).  Interestingly, the UK manages income taxes somewhat differently.  Taxes are deducted at source, but they are assumed to be correct unless proven otherwise (i.e. similar to our deductions for EI and CPP).  Since they have few deductions, this works to a certain extent.  If you do happen to qualify for a tax benefit, you apply for it separately.

A few years back in dealing with billings between CAF and an other government agency we reached a mutual agreement to use CFM rather than actuals.  The dollar amount at the end of the year was a relatively small difference and for the workload/man hours/hassle required to do actuals it was considered worth it.

I've never understood why we have Customs Clearance Clerks in Base Supply Sections.  This position exists to transfer funding from DND to CRA for items that DND has purchased abroad.  We don't let the provinces charge taxes to the federal government, but the federal government will pay taxes to itself?

Of course none of these will ever happen as the government and public would see it that we are getting big money for nothing.  Sure for some individuals this would be the case but the overall effect may be a saving.
 
Out of curiosity, do messes on ships get their funding from mess dues?  I.e. do members posted to a ship pay dues to those messes?
 
Remius said:
Out of curiosity, do messes on ships get their funding from mess dues?  I.e. do members posted to a ship pay dues to those messes?

Yes, mess dues are paid on board and accounted for through the NPF system.
 
It would be interesting to see which messes lived or died based on their respective populations having the option to pay into them or not.

Would ships essentially shut down their messes if people wanted to opt out of paying?  How many of those same people would bemoan the loss of their messes though.

Messes like the one in Meaford would likely die.  Although recruits and candidates probably would feel pressured to pay.

Messes have a purpose.  But I can't argue with someone who does not want to partake one way or another in mess life.

The Jr ranks mess in Ottawa might die as well.  It's dead most nights and outside of Christmas events and other outside functions it isn't really that busy (by the membership in relation to the size of said population).  with the move to carling it is going to see even less use. 

Regimental messes both reserve and regular would likely survive as the membership still has some attachment to those places given the historical, traditional and regimental affiliations contained within (there will always be a few that would opt out).

The thing is, once you lose something it is very hard to get it back.

 
Remius said:
It would be interesting to see which messes lived or died based on their respective populations having the option to pay into them or not.

Would ships essentially shut down their messes if people wanted to opt out of paying?  How many of those same people would bemoan the loss of their messes though.

Messes like the one in Meaford would likely die.  Although recruits and candidates probably would feel pressured to pay.

Messes have a purpose.  But I can't argue with someone who does not want to partake one way or another in mess life.

The Jr ranks mess in Ottawa might die as well.  It's dead most nights and outside of Christmas events and other outside functions it isn't really that busy (by the membership in relation to the size of said population).  with the move to carling it is going to see even less use. 

Regimental messes both reserve and regular would likely survive as the membership still has some attachment to those places given the historical, traditional and regimental affiliations contained within (there will always be a few that would opt out).

The thing is, once you lose something it is very hard to get it back.

Shipboard messes actually receive the bulk of their funding through exchange profits (all bars and the ship's canteen) and since they don't have any of the infrastructure requirements of land based messes, virtually all of their funds can be spent on entertaining the mess members.  Dues actually tend to be quite low and the funds are depleted on a regular basis.  Member participation is very high compared to land based messes, largely because most parties occur in foreign ports (prelude to runs ashore) and mess meetings are often conducted at sea (nowhere else to go).  Therefore, all members tend to be much more involved in what the mess does.  A lot of money gets spent on group activities in foreign ports as well.
 
Pusser said:
Shipboard messes actually receive the bulk of their funding through exchange profits (all bars and the ship's canteen) and since they don't have any of the infrastructure requirements of land based messes, virtually all of their funds can be spent on entertaining the mess members.  Dues actually tend to be quite low and the funds are depleted on a regular basis.  Member participation is very high compared to land based messes, largely because most parties occur in foreign ports (prelude to runs ashore) and mess meetings are often conducted at sea (nowhere else to go).  Therefore, all members tend to be much more involved in what the mess does.  A lot of money gets spent on group activities in foreign ports as well.

Yup.  I think messes on ship would remain healthy, and I think the majority of the crew(s) would elect to contribute to their respective messes.  When in MS and Below or C&PO messes on ships I actually felt  justified in that payment, I used it allot.  Now that I am shore based I haven't once set foot in my mess unless under orders, and I haven't so much as drank a pop.  Its the shore based ones that would suffer, IMHO.
 
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