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First ND, first charge

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One thing I've always wondered...why is it an ND when the weapon discharges during an unload? The weapon is intentionally fired in a safe direction during an unload for precisely this reason (to ensure that it is safe), correct?

Possibly because if there is still a round in the spout you will aim it in a safe direction, considering you may have performed a "negligent" action in your drills prior.

The pointing of the weapon in a safe direction is not the completion of a test for your personal weapons drill, but a method to ensure the safety around the you, in the case that you have not completed the drills properly.

dileas

tess

 
GO!!! said:
Kells, I can't think of anyone better to respond to a technical question than someone with your impeccable credentials and long service, please grace us with more of your learned insight.

I sense sarcasm...  :D
 
putz said:
Thanks for the replys.  I thought that I made it clear in my intial post that I was admiting guilt.  The round was fired under control in a safe direction.  We were taught our proper drills and did our TOETs.  However we were never taught how to do a hard extraction (which this seems to be).

If that's true, you might be able to get the charge dismissed.  If you were never taught a drill, you can't be expected to perform it properly, and you DID remedy the problem in a safe manner.  At the very least your punishment should be reduced - maybe a recorded warning with no monetary fine.

nULL said:
One thing I've always wondered...why is it an ND when the weapon discharges during an unload? The weapon is intentionally fired in a safe direction during an unload for precisely this reason (to ensure that it is safe), correct?

There was a discussion/thread about this before I beleive.  Firing a round unintentionaly is considered an accidental discharge, firing it intentionaly is a negligent discharge.  Either way, negligent means you were responsible, and in both cases it IS your negligence which caused a round to be fired when it shouldn't have been.  I guess it's just easier to sum up both types of mistakes under the same name.
 
Putz,

Sounds like your doing your best to take your medicine and soldieer on. Good job. Learn form this and carry on. You will most likely be fined up to $500. Good Luck!

Too all others trying to suggest ways for him to get out of this or to explain it away, not smart guys. It is a serious matter.If you don't think so talk to someone who had an ND round or if you choose an AD round fly past their head at an unloding bay.( Bosnia 1998 1 RCR roto, Brokville Rifle soldier puts a 5.56 mm round past the head of a Cpl from 1 RCR.) So feel freee to PM me and I will explain it to you. It's a pretty crappy feeling for both guys.

 
I'd like to echo the advice given earlier to talk to your assisting officer regarding possible outcomes.  He should be able to brief you on the range of punishments available to the presiding officer based on the charge and the whether the trial is being conducted by a delegated officer (most likely) or the commanding officer.  He must also be able to brief you fully on the whole trial process so you know what you are going into.  Just remember that he is not a lawyer and is not "defending" you.  He is there to ensure that you understand your rights and responsibilities and understand the process.

Cheers,

2B

 
Cdn. Royal said:
Too all others trying to suggest ways for him to get out of this or to explain it away, not smart guys. It is a serious matter.If you don't think so talk to someone who had an ND round or if you choose an AD round fly past their head at an unloding bay.( Bosnia 1998 1 RCR roto, Brokville Rifle soldier puts a 5.56 mm round past the head of a Cpl from 1 RCR.) So feel freee to PM me and I will explain it to you. It's a pretty crappy feeling for both guys.

I disagree.

I can think of more than one case where the Private in question was A) given an improper fire control order B) Recieved no, or deficient instruction, or C) wpn techs inspection turned up a faulty and malfunctioning weapon. I can also think of more than one occasion on which a soldier took the option of a court martial, and the charges were dropped, due to poor or no evidence against him, or the CSM simply not willing to have his company's dirty laundry aired in front of the CO.

The Charging  and discipline procedure is not there to railroad a soldier into a punishment, it is there to ascertain guilt, and assess a proper punishement and/or corrective measures. This is why soldiers occasionally find the charges against them dropped or they are found not guilty.

Yes sir, yes sir yes sir only makes the CSMs life easy - and he is not the one doing the time or paying the fine.

And lest we forget - there have been instances of "selective prosecution" in which a higher ranking individual will be permitted to walk, while the lower ranking one has the book thrown at him.

The system is not perfect, the private here deserves to know his rights, and him admitting to circumstances that may not be true simply to be seen as "accepting responsibility" serves no purpose, other than to encourage shoddy instruction and supervision.
 
I conducted a summary trial for a similar circumstance last month.  The soldier was a student on the PSWQ crse, and had a negligent discharge on the pistol range.  Because the incident occurred during a "basic training course", he was charged under Section 129 of the NDA for failing to correctly execute a drill that he had been trained to perform (and previously tested on).  The soldier had performed the unload drill correctly, right up to the point where he inserted the partially-loaded magazine back in the weapon prior to releasing the slide and firing the action with the weapon pointed safely down-range.  As a result of his momentary lapse of attention to detail, the individual had essentially reloaded and made ready, rather than drop the slide on an empty chamber. 

As I always do when acting as a Presiding Officer, I queried the JAG regarding the "going rate" punishment for such an offence.  I then have a reasonable baseline to adjust from in determining sentencing should the accused be found guilty.  Whether the punishment (or a variation thereof) gets adjusted upwards or downwards is dependant upon whether there are exacerbating or mitigating circumstances.  Whether or not such circumstances exist is determined through the presentation of documentary or witness evidence, coupled with the accused's testimony and sentencing representation (should he choose to testify on his own behalf).

In the case I described above, there were mitigating circumstances revealed through witness statements and the accused's testimony:

- The day of classroom training that PSWQ students are supposed to receive on the pistol was compressed.   

- The confirmatory range practice that is supposed to be conducted the next day was delayed for 24 hrs due to a range scheduling conflict.  There was therefore reason to expect skill-fade between completion of the instruction and TOETs and the confirmatory live-fire.

- The soldier in question had never handled a pistol (civilian or military) prior to the day of instruction on the PSWQ course.

- The soldier had correctly carried out the unload drill (less the fundamental sequential error) to include consciously ensuring that he fired the action with the weapon pointed in a safe direction. 

- Perhaps most important (to me), the soldier admitted that he was confident in his handling drills, did not require additional training, and had simply suffered a momentary "brain fart" while performing the unload.

Based on the above, I found the accused guilty of the charge as laid.  However, I was lenient in sentencing  based on the mitigating circumstances.  I don't believe in minor fines, because they have little impact in teaching a soldier the error of his or her ways.  The troop pays the fine and promptly forgets about it.  Instead, I exercised my option of a lesser punishment and sentenced the soldier to 3 days Stoppage of Leave - which includes "show parades" in different orders of dress at different times, but does not include extra work and drill.  Essentially, the ND on a training course range cost the soldier his weekend at home, with some personal inconvenience added to the mix.  Enough time for him to ponder his mistake, without being excessive. 

I would suggest that in this case, a similar minor punishment will be assigned if the accused is found guilty.  And based on what I've read thus far, I have little doubt that he will be found guilty.  After all, if he was unsure of what to do with a hard-extraction, he could have simply raised his hand and obtained assistance from an ARSO.  Instead, he wilfully pulled the trigger, and whether he believed the weapon to be unloaded or not is irrelevant.  Yes, the weapon malfunctioned.  But not in a manner that caused the weapon to discharge without willful human interaction. 

There are mitigating factors at play here, and I strongly advise the accused to bring those factors to light by agreeing to offer testimony during the trial.  Not having been taught how to deal with a hard-extraction is the key mitigating factor, but there are others - such as ensuring that the weapon was discharged in a safe direction.  By offering testimony, the accused is ensuring that the Presiding Officer has all of the necessary context to make a fair finding of innocence/guilt and if the latter, to assign a reasonable sentence. 

The accused would be well-advised in this case, to go with a summary trial by delegated officer. The powers of punishment are then limited to a maximum of 25% of the soldier's gross monthly pay, and/or 14 days Confinement to Barracks (with extra work and drill), or 7 days Extra Work and Drill, or 14 days Stoppage of Leave (no extra work and drill).  As soon as the charge is referred to the unit CO, the powers of punishment increase considerably.  However, in this case there would be no reason for the Delegated Officer to refer the charge higher, as his powers of punishment are adequate.  Going the Court Martial route is a real roll of the dice.  While Director Military Prosecutions may decide not to proceed with convening a court martial for such a minor offence, they may also decide to make an example of the soldier in order to discourage future attempts to thwart the military justice system.  If the charge does go to court martial and there is a finding of guilty, the range of potential punishments is much more severe.

This case is pretty cut and dried, and the advice given thus far is pretty much bang-on.  Accept the summary trial, admit to the particulars of the charge (if they are accurate), offer testimony to ensure that the Presiding Officer understands exactly what happened (context), and then take your lumps.  My educated guess regarding an appropriate sentence is less than a week of CB and/or a fine in the range of $200-$300.   

FWIW, based on my experience having deal with more than a few such cases.....
 
We'll I guess Mark won't be the presiding officer on this one -- but I can guess the outcome...

Putz - chalk it up to experience -- ND's here cost your job (and you pay for the flight back home...) at the VERY least

 
KevinB said:
We'll I guess Mark won't be the presiding officer on this one -- but I can guess the outcome...

Putz - chalk it up to experience -- ND's here cost your job (and you pay for the flight back home...) at the VERY least

Kevin, is the company you work for Canadian? The military would have to pay for your return flight to Canada (not the specific Provence, but they would fly you there).
 
48Highlander said:
If that's true, you might be able to get the charge dismissed.  If you were never taught a drill, you can't be expected to perform it properly, and you DID remedy the problem in a safe manner.  At the very least your punishment should be reduced - maybe a recorded warning with no monetary fine.

A recorded warning is not a reduced punishment, but an administrative action. A "RW" goes into your PERS file, and does not go away for the rest of your CF career. A 'guilty' finding with a minor fine would show up on your conduct sheet, but this can be removed from your file after a year. From a career perspective, a "RW" is much more serious that guilty on a 'minor' charge with a sentence of a monetary fine.

To the pers who started the thread - listen to your Assisting O, give your testimony to the Presiding O, and take your lumps. Based on what you stated, and the similar circumstances of the example given by Mark C, you will more than likely have a reduced punishment if found guilty (or admit to the particulars).

48Highlander - stay away from areas you do not have expertise in. Leave it to pers such as AJAG or pers qualified POCT like Mark C.
 
Yeah I wouldn't worry about it to much depending on where u were pointing the pistol I have heard many many rumours about people having ND's and nothing happening
 
Well if you heard the rumours than it mu.........


Anything concrete to add?
 
Putz, has military justice been served yet?  I'd like to know how this resolved.
 
When I was in Kosovo a guy in my section had an ND he got a 750 $ fine.It was with the C7 it was while clearing the weapon. Then a month or so later our CO came over and had a ND with the C6 and he fired off 5 rounds. It cost him 5000$ . 1000$ per round. So I guess the punishment varies due to circumstances. The main thing is no-one got hurt and I bet you won't do it again. We are all human we all make mistakes. It is a serious offence but as long as the weapon was pointed in a safe direction. Thats why we always keep control of our weapons. I imagine you feel like embarrassed because of it but it will all blow over. Take your charge and soldier on.
 
Maybe someone actually knows the full story behind this, but when I went overseas with Roto 3 last year, we heard a story of an Infanteer who was at the clearance bay.  He took his mag off, cocked the action a few times, then put the muzzle down the tube, pulled the trigger and "BANG!"  He got charged for having an ND in the clearance bay.  The weapons tech's that examined his C7 determined that he had a faulty extractor which prevented the round from being ejected.  Even though it WAS in a clearing bay, and the weapons techs determined the weapon WAS faulty, he was still charged and fined.  The reviewing officer pointed out that if he did his drills properly, he would have canted the weapon and seen that there was a round on the bolt face, so the fine stood.

Not sure what Roto this alledgedly happened on or even what theatre............. or if it's a military myth told to us to ensure we do proper drills, but nonetheless............ it's a story with a lesson to it.  :salute:
 
Arnold said:
Yeah I wouldn't worry about it to much depending on where u were pointing the pistol I have heard many many rumours about people having ND's and nothing happening

All NDs in theater are investigated and if warrented....charges follow.

There is a CWO who was recently charged for one in Kandahar.....no one is exempt from answering for an ND.

Someone has been telling you bedtime stories......

Regards
 
That is a part of the unload drill is to inspect the chamber and the face of the bolt. So in your example reccecrewman if that soldier did do the proper unload he would have seen the round left in the chamber and would not of fired the trigger. I know many times coming off of patrols it would be late and dark but we would all take our turn going through the clearing pit. I use to put my mag lit in my mouth so I could see inside the weapon. You can do it hundreds of times then that one time you are tired and cold and bang theres an ND. Thats why you just can't switch off. Like Franko stated all ND's are investigated.No matter what the rank is. Our CO got charged in 2000.He was a LCOL. The first thing that happens to the weapon is a tech takes a look at it to see if it was a weapon failure. But the bottom line is if you do your drills correctly it will never happen to you. But we are all human!!
 
Until the original poster contacts a Mod, this is closed. The barrack room lawyers and the second guessers can take a hike. This is closed until the accused tells us what's up.
 
Well I just got back from ex and my roommate (as I was on rear party) told me that the Sgt. Major asked him to pass onto me to be sure my kit is top knotch after March break as I am going up on my charge as soon as I get back.  I asked the mods to lock this thread, anyone who want to know what my punishment is will know where to look.
 
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