First ND, first charge

[putz]

Well it happened.  The dreaded ND.  The weapon techs took my pistol and are looking it over right now.  My question is what are the typical fines/defaulters for an ND (9mm on the range during an unload).  Any help from onyone in this position, and I'm sure theres some would be appreciated.

Just a little background:
Doing PWT shoot
Got unload, removed mag (that still had rounds in it)
Tried to cock weapon, slide wouldn't move
Check to enusre safe not engaged
Tried cocking again still wouldn't budge
(insert slaping head as should of gotten help from ARSO at this time)
put on blank mag
fired action

Pls no smart comments heared enough and will hear more in the future

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

Well it happened.  The dreaded ND.  The weapon techs took my pistol and are looking it over right now.  My question is what are the typical fines/defaulters for an ND (9mm on the range during an unload).  Any help from onyone in this position, and I'm sure theres some would be appreciated.

Just a little background:
Doing PWT shoot
Got unload, removed mag (that still had rounds in it)
Tried to **** weapon, slide wouldn't move
Check to enusre safe not engaged
Tried cocking again still wouldn't budge
(insert slaping head as should of gotten help from ARSO at this time)
put on blank mag
fired action

Pls no smart comments heared enough and will hear more in the future

ND's seem to be a right of passage in the Army, i wouldnt sweat it. Personally, i have had an ND, but no charge was brought upon me (I owed the MCpl. a beer or two!)

 

[HollywoodHitman]

It'll be a fine......Probably between 150 and 300 bucks.....Depends..I know someone this past summer who got a fine of over 600 bucks for an ND with a blank round.....

Best of luck.....

 

[043]

It'll be a fine......Probably between 150 and 300 bucks.....Depends..I know someone this past summer who got a fine of over 600 bucks for an ND with a blank round.....

Best of luck.....

On Operations, I have seen them to be between a half to full months pay. It is a very very serious offence.

 

[MJP]

Well it happened.  The dreaded ND.  The weapon techs took my pistol and are looking it over right now.  My question is what are the typical fines/defaulters for an ND (9mm on the range during an unload).  Any help from onyone in this position, and I'm sure theres some would be appreciated.

Just a little background:
Doing PWT shoot
Got unload, removed mag (that still had rounds in it)
Tried to **** weapon, slide wouldn't move
Check to enusre safe not engaged
Tried cocking again still wouldn't budge
(insert slaping head as should of gotten help from ARSO at this time)
put on blank mag
fired action

Pls no smart comments heared enough and will hear more in the future

Don't sweat it...it is a big deal but I'm sure you've learned from it.

If you are charged listen closely to your assisting officer and what he recommends (unless it's off the wall).   Read the related QR&O's and know what to expect. It is a relitivly minor offence so you can't choose court martial so no worries there

If your guilty (which it sounds like you are)...have a backbone and admit your mistake and take the punishment.  Again don't sweat it...just learn from it.

 

[Jaxson]

What may i ask is an ND?, I did a search under the terms section and it didnt show anything.

 

[Big Foot]

Jaxson, it's a negligent discharge.

 

[COBRA-6]

Hey, at least you didn't shoot yourself in the foot, or someone else for that matter! Admit you screwed up, take the punishment and move on... there is no better way to feel the wrath of a presiding officer than failing to accept responsibility for your actions.

 

[childs56]

Well did you follow your drills correctly? If you did dont sweat it. Was the round fired under control and aimed as per the stopage drill? These are questions that you must know now before you head into your charge. 
What were the stoppage drills on the range? Were they modified from the book for specific application on the range. Ie if you have a stoppage then get assistance, or if you get a stoppage clear the stoppage if you fail to clear the stoppage with your drills then attempt to place the weapon on safe and notify the range staff? 

I am not familiar with the stoppage drills on the 9mm as I rarely used them.  But one thing I will say is that during a stoppage drill a round may be fired by any weapon. That is why during the stoppage drill you are to maintain positive controll of the weapon and keep it pointed in a safe direction. 

I am not saying you are guilty or not. Just ask yourself those questions above and concur them with your assisting officer. Good luck let us know how you make out.

 

[BKells]

It wasn't a stoppage, from what I can gather through what he wrote. He lacked the required intestinal fortitude to cock the weapon and eject the chambered round. Then, negligently, he forgot there was a round in the spout, put in a mag and fired off the action.

 

[48Highlander]

I am not familiar with the stoppage drills on the 9mm as I rarely used them.  But one thing I will say is that during a stoppage drill a round may be fired by any weapon. That is why during the stoppage drill you are to maintain positive controll of the weapon and keep it pointed in a safe direction.

No, that's wrong.  Only certain weapons may fire a round during a stoppage drill or during an unload because of the way their mechanisms function.  The 9mm isn't one of them.

It IS ofcourse possible for a weapon to malfunction and fire off a round at any time, however, that's why the weapons techs currently have possesion of that pistol.  It's their call.  From what he's said about the incident though, it deffinitely wasn't a weapon malfunction, and he is entirely responsible.

 

[muskrat89]

WTF are you talking about Kells?

It wasn't a stoppage, from what I can gather through what he wrote. He lacked the required intestinal fortitude to cock the weapon and eject the chambered round. Then, negligently, he forgot there was a round in the spout, put in a mag and fired off the action.

Did you even read what he wrote???

Tried to cock weapon, slide wouldn't move
Check to enusre safe not engaged
Tried cocking again still wouldn't budge

 

[2 Cdo]

For those who think that an ND is not that serious, give your f'ing head a shake! ND's are serious, deadly serious. That is why they are referred as NEGLIGENT and not accidental discharges.  :threat: People have been killed and wounded due to these actions/inactions of people not doing drills correctly.

That being said, suck it up, take your punishment(whatever it may be) like a man, and LEARN from this incident and don't let it happen again!

 

[m410]

NDs in Canada - $200 to $400.  NDs on operations - mucho dinero ($2000+).  Some presiding officers disdain fines and go for other punishments.

NDs are serious, but especially with aggravating circumstances (non-static range, weapon fired in unsafe direction, blanks that would have killed someone if live, etc.)  It doesn't sound like you had any of those circumstances.  You are guilty as sin though.  The only extenuating circumstance that would be worth bringing up would probably be if you weren't properly trained before going on the range.  If you got proper pistol training and did TsEOTs (handling test) before going on the range then stick to "no sir" and "yes sir" while you are dancing hatless.

Take the opportunity as professional development... a chance to learn about summary trials! 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I've seen a guy get off for mishandeling a training grenade because he wasn't given the TEOT's the day before the range.  No fine and the supervisors got some kind of disiplinary action taken on them.  That said admit guilt and take your pill as mentioned above.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It wasn't a stoppage, from what I can gather through what he wrote. He lacked the required intestinal fortitude to cock the weapon and eject the chambered round. Then, negligently, he forgot there was a round in the spout, put in a mag and fired off the action.

I think with the profile you have, and judging from your comments on this subject, you should think long and hard about contributing to any thread your not qualified for. Like this one.

 

[putz]

Thanks for the replys.  I thought that I made it clear in my intial post that I was admiting guilt.  The round was fired under control in a safe direction.  We were taught our proper drills and did our TOETs.  However we were never taught how to do a hard extraction (which this seems to be).  I'm pleading guilty met with the CSM today had my rights read, waived counsel  etc.  All I really wanted to know was the typical fines/punishments are.  I know I was wrong and will accept my punishment, just wanted to know what I was in store for.

BKells, I'm not lowering myself to that level, just make sure you read things through before you post comments people will think you smarter then. 

 

[X Royal]

Hey, at least you didn't shoot yourself in the foot, or someone else for that matter! Admit you screwed up, take the punishment and move on... there is no better way to feel the wrath of a presiding officer than failing to accept responsibility for your actions.

How true. But if the presiding officer is someone who got wounds in the arse from cement & metal fragments due to a ND (happened in Cyprus) WATCH OUT. 

Good Luck

 

[GO!!!]

Putz,

Count on some time in the Defaulters room, behind the silver sub, possibly with a fine.

They will probably go easy on you since it was on a course where you learn how to use that wpn, and you had a hard extraction, your mistakes were 1) not asking for help and 2) pulling the trigger!

Kells, I can't think of anyone better to respond to a technical question than someone with your impeccable credentials and long service, please grace us with more of your learned insight.

 

[nULL]

One thing I've always wondered...why is it an ND when the weapon discharges during an unload? The weapon is intentionally fired in a safe direction during an unload for precisely this reason (to ensure that it is safe), correct?

Not that I think that the army doesn't already have a suitable number of acronyms, but wouldn't another term be appropriate?

In an aside, what could the problem have been? Would the TOAT have been the same for a partially slid slide? Once the magazine was removed, wouldn't a jammed round have fallen out (had the slide been pulled back as far as it would have gone?) with a vigorous shaking?