First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

[Jarnhamar]

Well, Canada just paid $92 million dollars to establish that there's a female genocide going on.

 

[Jarnhamar]

From the justice thread.



[quote author=Kyle Burrows]

That may be your individual belief, but it is not something that you, as an individual, can assert universally.[/QUOTE]
No, you're right it's not. I'm basing it off what I've read and heard in person from. FN members, military and civilian, who grew up on the reserves. I didn't see it first hand or work in the field like yourself.

As stated above, systemic abuse is not something that is limited to reserves.  Tying this back to the reserves is ignorant and a straw man argument.  Moving the same family unit off a reserve would not address the cause.

I'm not saying it's limited to the reserves. Are you suggesting there isn't a higher amount of abuse that happens on reserves compared to similar sized towns off reserve?

Discussing the financial management of the reserve system is not the purpose of this thread.

I know but I think they're all components that come together which enables successive generations where abuse isn't addressed, and, as you say is passed on from generation to generation.

By getting rid of the reserve system we would slowly but steadily begin to address the generation after generation of systemic abuse.

Hence my belief no reserve system would mean FN, after time, wouldn't need to have special considerations given during sentencing due to systemic abuse.

We tried forced integration before.  It resulted in systemic abuse that Canada still wears the blame for.

Be that as it may, I've still never read anything positive about the reserve system, or, heard something positive about it from FN members I've spoke with.

But...

Then you haven't looked.  The news is about as non-partisan to the reserve system as it is to the CAF.

Perhaps. Could you give me some examples?

 

[Burrows]

Jarnhamar,

You are welcome to your beliefs.  I found your initial post in the original thread to appear ignorant and generalizing in nature. It spoke to a lack of understanding of a much broader picture. Such assertions can reflect negatively upon the individual as well as the institution, particularly given the means we are on.

The fact of the matter is that there are hundreds of reserves in Canada and some are better off than others.  The same is true for non-reserve communities.  It isn't a perfect system - far from it.  There are many things we could do to improve things across the board.  The same way we can do many things to improve conditions in our cities, towns, and elsewhere.

We all have an obligation to educate ourselves and continue our education.  Particularly in areas we feel strongly enough about to make assertions.

So, instead of continuing here, I think this is a great opportunity for you to provide some rhetoric to support your original statement in the original thread.  I'd be happy to discuss those points with you.  We may both learn something new.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Jarnhamar,

You are welcome to your beliefs.

When I see statements like this I always think of a drunk guy telling me he doesn't want to fight (and what happens next)
 

But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond. I really think I'm right, but, you have one of those informed opinions I've heard about where mine is just an opinion. So maybe  I'm totally wrong, in which case that's great news to become better informed right?

I found your initial post in the original thread to appear ignorant and generalizing in nature. It spoke to a lack of understanding of a much broader picture. Such assertions can reflect negatively upon the individual as well as the institution, particularly given the means we are on.

Well if someone decides to quote me and paint it to reflect negatively on me as an individual or this institution I hope they also quote where I've said (a few times) FN soldiers are the best I've had the pleasure of working with and would be biased about picking them 'for my team' before someone else.

Moving on to my initial post. I looked back at my initial comment. If we got rid of the reserve system then after a while maybe we wouldn't need special considerations when sentencing FN people. Without evidence to the contrary I believe a significant amount of the problems FN face is due to the reserve system.

Why? Well where to begin. This very thread I believe has a number of examples where the reserve system fails while enabling continued abuse.

Money. The government throws it at reserves and what do we hear happens? It disappears. Chiefs get rich and the people with dirt floors and broken ceptic systems continue to suffer. We can't track where the money goes because it's racist to question them.
Likewise money gets earmarked to be put towards infrastructure, let's say fixing up some kind of public Works building. A million dollars later the building is a shit pit, $10'000 was spent fixing a couple of things and the rest is gone. But that's not our business.

Does the same thing happen with money designated for helping abused members or paying for services? I suspect it does but I may be wrong.

I think the whole culture of giving away money but not holding anyone accountable enables generation after generation of suffering to continue. Abusers don't get the help they need. Abused people don't get the help they need. Abused people who become abusers don't get the help they need. It's a big cycle. No?

What I've heard from FN members really impacted my beliefs about the reserve system. To a person they've all said it's horrible and needs to be scrapped. These are all solid soldiers or successful adults.
I'm pretty certain I've read about successful FN businesses and bands and, unless I'm mistaken, they spoke about moving away from reserves and things like "Indian time".

I took a quick look (I'll go more in depth later) but I didn't see any websites speaking to positive aspects about reserve life. Maybe the positive successful ones just don't make the news? 

Do you have any ideas or suggestions that would stop the repeated cycles of abuse? And what the causes are?

 

[Burrows]

Post

I am actually all for accountability when it comes to spending.  I think that if a reserve is going to be using government funding, then the government has a vested interest in ensuring effectiveness of that spending.  I agree, we have all seen the horror stories of misspending.  I just think it is very important to note that not all reserves are in the same position or receive the same funding.  Opening the books and preventing mismanagement would definitely help the system work better.  I would be most suspicious of those that would cry racism on that - but that in itself is a political game. And the media doesn't care about a well managed reserve, only ones that sell stories.

I don't think we have done enough historically with regards to paying for services or providing them.  It is only in the last few years that we have started investing funds in this area.  As a matter of interest, I am watching this closely.  The state of medical care, particularly in the far north, is quite a far cry from even a basic hospital down here.  Many communities only have a nursing station if they are lucky.  There are so many things that we can do better, and doing them better can only contribute to strengthening the ties between our community and those of the first nations.

There are many reserves that have a subsistence economy.  There are many that have integrated and many that have also innovated to their benefit.  At the end of the day, we may very well see the end of the reserve system.  The last estimate that I saw was that 70% of first nation members live off reserve.  Integration may very well be an eventuality, but letting it happen on the terms of the reserve members will hands down be more effective than forcing it.  And the fact of the matter is that so much of the culture is so rich, that it is in the interests of all of us to seek the preservation of it. (But hey, I love history).

IMO, the best way to stop the cycles of abuse will come from within the first nations communities.  We are still only a few generations away from some very real damage that was done at the hands of Canada.  With time, and with the right support, change will come.  It just needs to come through support, which means we need to align our practices with making a difference instead of headlines.  The CAF is definitely helping to create the leaders that will make this change through the summer training programs, ALOY, and CFAEP are all steps in a very positive direction.  The fact that many First Nations policing services are seeing more first nations recruits joining the ranks is a good sign as well.  The people that have broken the cycle will be the solution to helping those that need it.


Still want to have a barfight? 

 

[Throwaway987]

I don't think we have done enough historically with regards to paying for services or providing them.  It is only in the last few years that we have started investing funds in this area.  As a matter of interest, I am watching this closely.  The state of medical care, particularly in the far north, is quite a far cry from even a basic hospital down here.  Many communities only have a nursing station if they are lucky.

Why is it unreasonable for there to be reduced health services in isolated locations?

The argument for the equality of human life doesn’t magically make money appear out of thin air to pay for services. The local financial output/labour productivity/tax base of the area determines what services are available/affordable to that community.

It shouldn’t be taboo to say that a small community in an isolated location only has access to limited services (and has reduced health outcomes as a result). i.e. Not every community can have their own hospital. Why can’t a nursing station be a reasonable service standard?

Edit: Included relevant quote

 

[mariomike]

Why is it unreasonable for there to be reduced health services in isolated locations?

Unreasonable? Not for me to say.

But, from what I have read, I suspect ( all, most, some? ) taxpayers in rural Ontario feel entitled to similar paramedic response times as Toronto.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Isolated aboriginal communities should be no different from isolated non-aboriginal communities - all should receive the same levels of support for infrastructure, education, etc.  For that to work efficiently and effectively, all communities should be integrated the same way into Canada's federal and provincial governance structure.

The key problem for reserve communities is the same problem faced by non-reserve communities - being a company town without a company.  There's a solution for that, but the reserve "system" militates against it.

The key problem with the "system" is that it discourages mobility.

 

[Cloud Cover]

“The key problem with the system is that it discourages mobility”

Correct. If moving away results in some comparative disadvantage or loss of a benefit, why take the risk?

 

[Throwaway987]

“The key problem with the system is that it discourages mobility”

Correct. If moving away results in some comparative disadvantage or loss of a benefit, why take the risk?

The reward for that the risk is access to increased opportunities for education/employment at another location.

People everywhere else in the country (if not the planet) move or change themselves to adapt to where there is employment. There is no obligation for people to move if they value their culture but they must also accept the responsibility and opportunity cost of that decision.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The point is that the incentives and disincentives established by the reserve (and "status") system have adverse consequences unlike those facing people not subject to those policies.  I would say "really, really adverse consequences" but the degree is in the eye of the beholder.  If those ("unique") consequences were erased, we'd at least be dealing only with the customary ones.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Still want to have a barfight? 

Naw. Usually when someone says that they swing at you next.
I meant  "you're entitled to your opinion" always like the person saying it means something entirely else, but I'm just being my funny self

We definitely agree about accountability.

Throwaway987 mentioned exactly the points I was going to bring up regarding not doing enough for communities.

How much is enough, how much is too much?

Seen a story today a out Attawapiskat and their on going water problems.
[ https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/now-we-can-t-even-bathe-in-it-state-of-emergency-in-attawapiskat-over-water-quality-1.4501396]

“In this country there are thousands of Indigenous people that don’t have access to clean drinking water. Now we can’t even bathe in it? This is ridiculous,” said Attawapiskat resident Adrian Sutherland on CTV News Channel Tuesday.

    NDP MP Charlie Angus, whose riding includes Attawapiskat, said the community is suffering from a failure by the federal government to provide long-term infrastructure.

Why does the federal government need to provide long term infrastructure? There isn't a lot going on for people in these remote places - which fuels high rates of addiction and suicide. At what point is it financially irresponsible to keep throwing money at remote settlements of 3000 people that can't sustain themselves?




As far as change coming from FN communities a friend of mine said something sad. "We can't be trusted to manage ourselves".

It's a contentious question but what if he was right? We know there is a lack of accountability with millions of dollars being given to reserves, there's corruption, there's members complaining about corruption and being ignored, nepotism and so on.

What if in order to fix the reserve systems that are broke the Canadian government will need to step in and force financial accountability, fire corrupt band/council members and take over running things to get it back on track. Do you think we have a stomach for it?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A completely First Nation Federal Police force, with constables and eventually investigators and forensic auditors would be a start, formed under the wing of the RCMP, but separate. They would have the authority to step into any Reserve invited or not to investigate and police as required. That would remove the whole 'White boot on the throat" stuff and give young kids on remote reserve a role model to aspire to.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Naw. Usually when someone says that they swing at you next.
I meant  "you're entitled to your opinion" always like the person saying it means something entirely else, but I'm just being my funny self

We definitely agree about accountability.

Throwaway987 mentioned exactly the points I was going to bring up regarding not doing enough for communities.

How much is enough, how much is too much?

Seen a story today a out Attawapiskat and their on going water problems.
[ https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/now-we-can-t-even-bathe-in-it-state-of-emergency-in-attawapiskat-over-water-quality-1.4501396]

Why does the federal government need to provide long term infrastructure? There isn't a lot going on for people in these remote places - which fuels high rates of addiction and suicide. At what point is it financially irresponsible to keep throwing money at remote settlements of 3000 people that can't sustain themselves?




As far as change coming from FN communities a friend of mine said something sad. "We can't be trusted to manage ourselves".

It's a contentious question but what if he was right? We know there is a lack of accountability with millions of dollars being given to reserves, there's corruption, there's members complaining about corruption and being ignored, nepotism and so on.

What if in order to fix the reserve systems that are broke the Canadian government will need to step in and force financial accountability, fire corrupt band/council members and take over running things to get it back on track. Do you think we have a stomach for it?

The Federal Government needs to provide long term infrastructure because it's the Federal Government's responsibility to do so as the land belongs to the Crown. 

The reason the Federal Government needs to fix the water system in Attawapiskat is because it is they who created the problem in the first place.

Attawapiskat has long struggled with THM and HAA levels due to the high level of naturally occurring organic material in the lake where the community draws its water. 

Gull said the issue goes back to the 1970s when Ottawa decided use the lake water, which was originally intended to only feed the school, homes for teachers and the nursing station, to supply the whole community. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/attawapiskat-water-quality-emergency-1.5204652&ved=0ahUKEwjgrqbmyavjAhWhgFQKHYmaBCMQqQIIOygBMAI&usg=AOvVaw1VJh2veaSBKwdf0rUDso7U

Yep, the Federal Government knew
the 1970s the water situation wasn't adequate and they went and did it anyways, why? 

So what exactly have they done about it?  Commissioned two studies in 2008 and 2011 that both recommended water be drawn from the Attawapiskat River instead of the stagnant lake they presently draw it from.

What action has been taken?  In typical Canadian Government fashion?  None!

 

[Throwaway987]

The Federal Government needs to provide long term infrastructure because it's the Federal Government's responsibility to do so as the land belongs to the Crown. 

What level of infrastructure does the government need to provide? If there wasn’t running water or electricity when they took over the land, why are they suddenly responsible for providing it now?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This is a crisis, we live in one of the richest countries in the world yet we have people living in absolute squalor with no access to clean water. 

Children should not suffer kidney failure, cancer and other illnesses due to lack of access to clean water.

There is only one organization in Canada capable of responding with the necessary speed and precision to deal with this emergency, that is the Canadian Armed Forces.

The Federal Government should be IMMEDIATELY deploying Army Engineers to the town of Attawapiskat to stabilize the water situation in the town and buy time for Aboriginal Affairs and the rest of the Federal Government to get its act together.

 

[dimsum]

The Federal Government should be IMMEDIATELY deploying Army Engineers to the town of Attawapiskat to stabilize the water situation in the town and buy time for Aboriginal Affairs and the rest of the Federal Government to get its act together.

It would be funny (and very sad) if DART ends up being sent. 

Either way, the ON govt must request aid, no?  We (the CAF) can't just decide to show up.

 

[Throwaway987]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Not all areas of Canada that are inhabited can have access to modern water distribution systems and modern water quality standards because it isn’t practical or cost effective to do so. There should be a reasonable balance between a community’s long term self-sufficiency and government intervention.

The government should immediately halt any previous plans to deploy army engineers :2c:

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

What level of infrastructure does the government need to provide? If there wasn’t running water or electricity when they took over the land, why are they suddenly responsible for providing it now?

It's called basic human dignity, the minute you take it away from someone, you get this:

It would be funny (and very sad) if DART ends up being sent. 

Either way, the ON govt must request aid, no?  We (the CAF) can't just decide to show up.

That is a good question, my understanding is Reserves are Federal Land, administered by Aboriginal Affairs.

 

[Throwaway987]

How does the desire for human dignity magically create financial resources to achieve this goal? Is that a “might makes right” argument?

The CBC article you linked suggested some pretty staggering costs. Don’t get me wrong, it would be incredible to be able to provide the best modern amenities at every desired location in Canada. How do we actually accomplish the grand ideas that we have? Seems like a lot of whimsical fantasy without a business plan or financial case for making this a reality.