FATS

[Sh0rtbUs]

My course was supposed to be scheduled to head down to Fort York Armouries sometime this week to have a go at the Simulator they have. We were told by our Sergeant "Think of your favourite video game...then multiply it by 8" when we asked what it was like..so i was wondering if anyone could give me the low-down on it, what can be done on it...etc. I have this image of duck hunt with a C7 in my head....

 

[Redeye]

It‘s often joked about that way. The official term is CFSATS - the Canadian Forces Small Arms Trainer Simulator, which is manufactured by Fire Arms Training Systems of Suwanee, Georgia.

Basically, it is a fairly realistic simulator system which can effectively simulate the operation of a variety of weapons. Your unit will have C6, C7, C9, M72, M203, and a kit for the Carl Gustav. There are also modules for other weapons, and the system can be used to train artillery observers in its CGI mode.

The SATS can simulate all standard range practices and PWTs, as well as a variety of operator-designed serials. It can factor in weather (its ballistic effects), and can be used to monitor proper application of drills and IAs.

What it basically uses are modified weapons fitted with laser emitters and a gas system which runs on compressed CO2 stored in tanks. The weapons look exactly like those you‘d be issued (although my unit‘s rifles are Bushmaster XM-15s rather than Diemaco C7s), and feel similar, although the C7 is someone "front-heavy" because of the gas cylinder apparatus. The laser doesn‘t pulse like your Nintendo light gun - it is a constant beam, and a camera mounted above the projector records the hits. SATS is computer-zeroed, so the operator can zero and adjust weapons as needed.

There are sensors in the C7s which monitor cant angle, barrel movement, trigger squeeze, and butt pressure, which the operator and his range NCOs can use to coach shooters.

I could go on for ages about the system, I‘m a trained operator, so if you want to know anything else about it, just ask.

 

[1feral1]

We have FATS eqpt here in Australia. Its called WTSS short for Weapons Training Simulation System(pronounced ‘wets‘). Many very well done scenerios for the following weapons:

F88 Austeyr family
M16 family
F89A1 Minimi
MAG 58 (C6)
84mm Charlie Gutsache (Carl G)

M203PI is being looked at.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Thompson_JM]

Originally posted by Redeye:
[qb] (although my unit‘s rifles are Bushmaster XM-15s rather than Diemaco C7s[/qb]

Redeye, any reason your unit uses the Bushmaster XM-15, and pardon the Ignorance but is there any differance in look or operation from the C7?

Just wondering.

cheers

 

[Redeye]

It‘s basically the same rifle (AR-15 design, Safe/Semi/Auto selector) - as far as I know, all SATS have that particular rifle, but I haven‘t seen enough systems to know for sure. Since they are made in the USA, it seems logical that it would be easier for the company to procure rifles for conversion in the USA rather than sending C7s there to be converted. I‘m not positive that‘s the reason, but it‘s the only one I can come up with.

 

[Righty]

ahhh.... The SAT trainer... The first time they brought us in there our sgt‘s, and MCpl‘s gave us a demo and had an actual simulated attack... every second thing outta there mouths was "DIE F&%&^%S".....that was fun

 

[Redeye]

Yeah, we‘ve done some demos using the CGI scenarios with SATS that break down into ridiculous. everyone just wants to fire the C6 from the shoulder and mow the commies down...

That aside, it can (and generally is) an excellent training tool that needs polishing.

 

[pte anthony]

we had one at the regiment for a while during 2002 it was a blast. We did range scenerios with c9 c6 and c7 and then did a simulated raid on a village with people running out and dropping into the prone and popping off shots from windows it ****in rocked even though to me besides all the features such as hands on weapons and excellent statistacal records it seemed kind of 80s video game cheesy I mean no one s gonna run out into the middle of the street in a FIBUA situaion to face a on coming fighting patrol unless its raw ambush :soldier:

 

[Doug VT]

I‘m a system operator, and it‘s not too bad. It could be so much better though. So many times when creating my own ranges and scenarios, I wished I had the password to add some of my own targets...
All of the "C7‘s" are the bushmasters. They are a real rifle, just modified to operate with the system. The company will supply almost anything that you want, if you have the budget...

 

[Sh0rtbUs]

so when using it..the user IS stationary, correct? How exactly would a raid on a village work?

 

[Redeye]

Their website it quite interesting. They even have baton dummies for police training. I‘m told that the navy has MP5s and pistols for theirs too.

The system can do a lot of things they showed us during our course that I just never got around to trying, and with the limited time that Reservists get to use the system, the vast majority of the focus goes to rifle marksmanship rather than complex CGI scenarios.

Doug, do you know if the rumoured modified C79 sights ever materialized in the system? I know that there were supposed to be some procured to compensate for the fact that the focal length of the real C79 makes it difficult to get good sight picture resolution in the 18 m in which the system operates.

I suspect a public relations nightmare might erupt if some targets were loaded. I‘ve never laughed so hard and some things. "1 Section, 200, school bus to your front, rapid rate, FIRE" never sounded quite so funny.

 

[Spr.Earl]

The first time I came accross this type of system was in Minnasota at Camp Ripley in 95,but alas did not get a chance to go and play as we were doing a bunch of project‘s on the base i.e building tank turning pad‘s on the road‘s but the Field Troopies got to go.
The one thing they said was if didn‘t do your weapon‘s drill‘s right you could not fire,the computer locked you out untill you did the correct reload or clear drill,IA‘s etc.
Is ours the same?

 

[1feral1]

Recently at Holsworthy at the WTSS Bldg, I had a chance to do the ‘Downtown Dili‘ scenerio.

As you Ptl the street, passing small shoppes, and even a Coke sign painted on a wall, you end up coming under SA fire, and suddenly a ‘technical‘ appears with a 12.7 MG on it and about 4 pers, rge under 100m.

Our entire section shot the living **** out of the vehicle, killing all EN pers, and even the veh caught fire and smoked.

Not bad graphics either.

we carried on, and again came under fire from a church, and along a fence line. Again all EN pers were killed.

Its a very good learning tool, and has many other scenerios one can programme in, such as ‘shoot dont shoot‘ situations, and it even can follow the muzzle of your IW, to show you where you have been pointing your rifle, after the fact.

I was impressed.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Tpr.Orange]

I played tonight actually.

Loved every second of it. We did range firing, sectional, in cities in the artic, with paratroopers landing and vehicles rolling in. We even had platoons charging us from different directions. There were stoppages inbetween, the recoil is slightly the same as the real thing, and its a great trainer and fun as ****

 

[Tpr.Orange]

Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
[qb]
The one thing they said was if didn‘t do your weapon‘s drill‘s right you could not fire,the computer locked you out untill you did the correct reload or clear drill,IA‘s etc.
Is ours the same? [/qb]

Yep ours are the same! the other thing is if your magazine is touching the ground during prone position is wont allow you to fire, cause the machine things your too weak! Its great because the c7 is 80% of the actual recoil and all the information about your shots go straight into the computer, so they can tell you how much pressure your applying to the butt and to the trigger etc.. great trainer

 

[Redeye]

The magazine resting stoppage has nothing to do with machine thinking you‘re weak, it‘s a technical matter of the way in which the system determines the state of the weapon. The computer sets the size of the magazine, which is basically a giant magnet. The computer knows if the mag is in or out based on whether the magnet closes a switch or not (hence just popping the mag out of the well and pushing back in counts as a "mag change". When it sits on the ground and pushed the follower up to high, the system won‘t cycle properly and you get the stoppage.

The recoil is 100% of the real thing, the regulator is designed that way, though it can be turned down to as low as 25% as a training tool if desired (though I can see absolutely no purpose for doing so).

Our systems require you conduct all the drills properly, since for all intents and purposes they work exactly like real firearms, with CO2 replacing propellant gases, and no ammunition. The operator can simulate and IA except a mechanical stoppage (ie Bolt Partially Closed). Even a runaway MG can be simulated, though the actual drill doesn‘t work because the belt does not feed through the weapon.

Incidentally, you did not "play" it. It‘s not a toy, it‘s a training aid.

 

[Tpr.Orange]

well red eye ive obviously been misinformed...my deepest apologies...

and as for play lets not be to picky

 

[Redeye]

It‘s not a matter of being picky, it‘s a matter of professionalism. This board is watched by members of the public, many of whom may not be impressed by the military having $150,000/unit "toys". I‘ll be the first to admit that after I saw the system for the first time, I wondered where to put in my quarters, and I would be a liar if I claimed to derive no amusement whatsoever from its use, but the system is meant solely as a training aid.

 

[portcullisguy]

It‘s a great training aid, too.

On our DP2A course this week, we were doing C7 coaching on the system. Although we did use the "auto zero" function because we were short on time, the intent was that we could have assisting the firer in correctly zeroing the weapons on the line -- as we will be doing during the range weekends coming up.

Most of the scenarios we did were ranges, not CGI stuff, although I‘ve played on it in the past doing section defensive, etc.

The rifles at our trainer, Moss Park Armoury, are Diemaco C7‘s, I am almost certain of it. So were the M203‘s.

However, our system is running on Pentium 1‘s, and therefore it runs REALLY slowly.

But some of the features are awesome. Apparently, with the right network adapters, etc., we could link up with the Fort York and Georgetown armouries‘ SAT systems, and "play" in a virtual battlefield. The Meaford system apparently has something like 24 weapons hooked up to it.

Every round fired off on a SAT is a round not spent from our dwindling stocks of CF ammunition, and there‘s never any brass to clean up. The savings are enormous, and it is an excellent training tool.

But, yes, it‘s fun to shoot things!

 

[hhour48]

Actually If you lok closely, the weapons are replicas. There‘s a neat picture of a cobra instead of the diemaco emblem