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Extreme heat in army tanks endangers troops; forces use tank blanket to keep troops from baking

IN HOC SIGNO said:
and then Jack Layton will come after you to get the Government to pass a bill banning Hauptmann Scharlachrot user fees!! ;D

:rofl:

Yes, Prime Minister Layton (and GG Olivia Chow) will ensure that I am rightly villified for even considering charging for my services. 


Still, IF (note that it's a big "if") we were to get Leo 2's, PSO or whatever variant (20) and then 80, I highly doubt that it would add to 100 (lease 20 now, take delivery of the 80, return those 20, or whatever remain of them).  Given that the Leo C2 is still a healthy cat, albeit long in the tooth, I shudder to think that we would shelve them.

Again, IF we were to find ourselves with 66 Leo C1 and 80 C2, the question would be: can we man them all?  The construct of the 19 tank squadron may resurface (medium and heavy), for a total of 2 medium (Leo C2) and 3 heavy (Leo 2A6).  Whither the remainder?  Training institutions (technical and tactical training).

Again, this is a "big, honking" IF

:D
 
Are these the ones everyone a month or so ago were saying they were going for $350,000? or are they spiffy new ones right out of the factory with warranty tag, inspector tag and large price tag?
 
Question regarding the language "request".

Could this not just be DND "inquiring" as to the "possibility", rather than physically starting an acquisition process?
Maybe O'Connor just approved a communique over to Germany to see about an alternative to leaving the MBT off of the purchasing block as per the Canada First initiative.

Lots of people window-browse, some even ask the sales people questions, and some even push to speak to a sales manager, all without ever actually being ready to buy....
 
Meridian said:
Question regarding the language "request".  Could this not just be DND "inquiring" as to the "possibility", rather than physically starting an acquisition process?  Maybe O'Connor just approved a communique over to Germany to see about an alternative to leaving the MBT off of the purchasing block as per the Canada First initiative.  Lots of people window-browse, some even ask the sales people questions, and some even push to speak to a sales manager, all without ever actually being ready to buy....

Good point, and not unreasonable as hunting/searching for options is ongoing for most organizations - I'd bet a loonie that this will be the messaging coming out of DND before Monday.

Foggy head moment:  Wasn't there a similar story, in fact, not too long ago, where the first headlines were, "CF Getting Gizmo x", and the military ended up saying, "We're looking at Gizmo x as one of several options to fill our needs" in the past two-three months?  This could be more of the same.
 
Jumping out of my normally secure lane. Could this be done the same way as the recent new toys for the airforce? But someone raised a good point even if the new kit arrivies post haste-who is going to crew them ?, what training has to be done to make them operational and how long ? Next what about the story that was flying around in the media about the Lav's wearing out and their replacements, allegedly the 113s were going to cover that but again there are no crews and most of us that trained on them are know out. Slay away ;)
 
TLAV [M113] are on the ground right now in Afg.  There are even pictures of them in the MSM.

As for training on the L2, no idea but if any army can make it happen, ours will.

 
Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
First of all, HESH does not come in the 120mm smoothbore variety.  HEAT maybe?
HEAT is great for punching holes in armour.  Against grape-huts we really need something with a good blast that will get the guys inside (and maybe even throw the walls on top of the occupants).  I've never heard of a 120 mm smooth-bore HESH either, but we want something like it.  Maybe 120 mm smooth-bore thermobaric (this would be even better)?

3rd Herd said:
Next what about the story that was flying around in the media about the Lav's wearing out and their replacements, allegedly the 113s were going to cover that but again there are no crews and most of us that trained on them are know out.
I've not heard this rumour.  However, M113A3 are going for some roles.  It is a vehicle that Armd & Engr use back here in Canada (so there is experience) and it is a whole new beast from the M113 that used to inhabit the infantry battalions (so even if the old track drivers were still around they would need to re-learn the new vehicle).
 
Well... there have been a number of threads on this subject for the last year.... slightly used Leo2s being offered by germans & Danes at bargain basement prices.

..... guess we're getting ready for our second course of big cats.
 
The M113's are used by the tankers right now for admin stuff.  Mostly their CQ equivilant and maintence pers are using them.  I can't remember if I saw any used by the Engineers though.  The M113 as mentioned has had a lot changed as well they won't be used for the troops.  The one's that are here are in a specific role and we sold most of ours that weren't converted.
 
Ohh and please don't forget how useful a Leo2 would be in giving little kiddies lifts to school on snowy days, or that you can hook a plough to them and fix up 40 ha in no time at all - not to mention the fact that these magnificent contraptions are so useful in making roads - oh I forgot, they are big enough to hold lots of icecream to give out to the little kiddies on the street - oh and, the wonderful 120mm cannnon is a grand way of delivering express mail - a natural priority post delivery service - oh yes  and sabot rounds are so useful in hanging pictures onto walls - one shot and there you go, no need to make lots of noise banging in tiny little nails and disturbing the neighbours - and you can do it from 2 km away. Now as for the M777 - what a marvelous tool for digging holes to plant trees... and for fertilizing the ground - adding those necessary micronutrients -Fe, Mn and the like... Come on you guys - remember you have to sell this to the NDP....
 
And here it is in CAN media - still not definite, but we now know the CF is looking at it.

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Military eyes lease deal with Germany for new tanks
20 state-of-the-art vehicles could be in field by spring

CanWest News Service, via the Ottawa Citizen, 11 Feb 07, p. A4.

As it prepares to deal with another spring offensive by insurgents in Afghanistan, Canada is trying to lease
state-of-the-art Leopard tanks from Germany.

Defence sources told the Citizen yesterday that Canada wants to lease 20 Leopard A6M tanks from the German army.

The tanks, which have improved protection against landmines and other enemy weapons, could be shipped to Afghanistan as early as the spring if the deal is approved, sources said.

The German newsmagazine, Der Spiegel, will also report tomorrow that Canada wants to buy 80 Leopard 2 tanks from Germany as well as lease the other 20 Leopards.

According to another European news agency, Agence France-Presse, the German government is looking at approving the Canadian request.

"The ministry is in principle favourable to this request," a German defence department spokesman told Agence France-Presse.  In November, the Citizen broke the story of Canada's interest in buying at least 50 German Leopard 2 tanks.  But at the time Defence Department officials denied the report, claiming the Canadian Forces had no interest in purchasing modern Leopards.

The Canadian military has already shipped a small number of Leopard C2s to Afghanistan. But the Canadian Forces has concerns about the level of protection those tanks can provide for their crews. In
addition, there are concerns about whether there will be enough spare parts for the older Canadian tanks, according to sources.

The proposed German deal would also include an ample supply of parts for the armoured vehicles.

A defence source said Canada's proposal to the German government, if accepted, could shave years off acquiring a more modern tank for use in Afghanistan. If Canada were to upgrade its existing Leopards it would take about two years, the source said.

A Defence Department official said yesterday that only limited information about the Canada-German Leopard proposal was available.

"No decision has been taken, but the Canadian Forces are constantly assessing their requirements for operations," said Tanya Barnes, a Canadian Defence Department spokeswoman.

In the fall, Canadian military officials sent out feelers to different countries who might have used Leopard 2s for sale.  Included among those were the Netherlands and Germany. In addition, Canada wanted details about the availability of spare parts for the tanks.

Over the last year there has been a major about-face in the Canadian military's view of the usefulness of tanks.

Last fall, after originally denying that it was going to send Leopards to Afghanistan, the military confirmed the vehicles were indeed headed for that South Asia war zone.

"Tanks produce a certain amount of shock action," army commander Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie said at the press conference confirming the deployment of the Leopards. "They can be extraordinarily intimidating."

In the late 1990s, the Canadian Forces spent $145 million to equip the tanks with new computers and heat-sensing equipment to improve their fighting capability.

But three years ago, Gen. Rick Hillier, then army commander, labelled the Leopards as a "millstone" around the neck of the service. Several months later Gen. Hillier wrote an article for the Citizen criticizing retired officers who wanted to keep the Leopard tanks in the army's inventory.

"Tanks are a perfect example of extremely expensive systems that sit in Canada because they are inappropriate to the operations we conduct daily around the world," Gen. Hillier wrote at the time. The general is currently the chief of the defence staff. 

But as they came to grips with the war in Afghanistan, senior military leaders changed their minds and turned to the tank to provide increased firepower and protection. Last year, the army put on hold a plan to dispose of many of its tanks. However, by that point, the Defence Department had blown up, sold or given away a little less than half of the army's fleet of 114 Leopards.

At the same time the army leadership requested the Conservative government cancel a proposed plan to spend at least $700 million on the purchase of a wheeled vehicle called the Mobile Gun System. That system was being billed as a replacement for Canada's Leopards.

A copy of the government's proposed Canada First Defence Strategy, obtained by the Citizen, confirms that the Mobile Gun System will indeed be cancelled and tanks will remain in the army until at least
2016.

 
More Leopard 2 info.

Leopard 2 Main Battle Tank, Germany
The Leopard 2 is a main battle tank developed by Krauss-Maffei AG, now Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), of Munchen, Germany. The Leopard 2 is a successor to the successful Leopard 1.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/

And it comes with Air Conditioning !! :D

 
Baden  Guy said:
More Leopard 2 info.

Leopard 2 Main Battle Tank, Germany
The Leopard 2 is a main battle tank developed by Krauss-Maffei AG, now Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW), of Munchen, Germany. The Leopard 2 is a successor to the successful Leopard 1.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/

And it comes with Air Conditioning !! :D

Of course, by "Munchen" you mean Munich, right?

Or do you mean München?

Anyway, for those not in the know, the Leo 2 was a by-product of the failed MBT 70 project, which saw the US and Germany attempt to collaborate on a new heavy tank design.  The teams split, and the results were the Leo 2 (which always had a 120mm smoothbore) and the M1 (which originally had a 105mm gun).

Through several evolutions, the armour protection of the Leo 2 has increased dramatically, as has its firepower: the 120 mm smoothbore was at one time 44 calibre lengths (most still are), whereas the A6 variant has a 55 calibre length gun (which means much higher muzzle velocity).
 
Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
Of course, by "Munchen" you mean Munich, right?

Or do you mean München?

Hey "dude"  when I 'm out of my lane I just cut and paste.  ;D See link.
 
MCG said:
Against grape-huts we really need something with a good blast that will get the guys inside (and maybe even throw the walls on top of the occupants).  I've never heard of a 120 mm smooth-bore HESH either, but we want something like it.  Maybe 120 mm smooth-bore thermobaric (this would be even better)?

This problem with the grape huts is not new. The Soviets had the same problems. If I remember correctly there are several examples in some of Grau's works such as The Soviet Afgan War: How a Super Power Fought and Lost.  Given that Grau has written extensively about this prior conflict both in small papers and full on text it surprises myself that this problem was not sand tabled before it became a real problem. As to the themobarbic I believe that is one of the solutions used. I can hunt down the exact source material at some point today. but relying on memoray alone I think it was used by direct fire self propelled artillery units. Tanks were used in a stand off over watch role.
 
That army-technology lists something called the "mobile comouflage system".  What exactly is that system?  It looks like a bunch of blankets and netting to me.
 
Why would they buy 80 A4s, instead of the A6. They are the newest and most protected. I know the germans dont even have that number but they could build them. Or even buy the A5 if the A6s cant be built.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/leopard2.html

confirming a report in the magazine Der Spiegel due to appear Monday which says that 80 A4 tanks could be bought from the German army reserve.

BTW would they be leaseing this Version of the A6

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/leopard14.html
 
IF this should come to pass, I hope like hell someone has the foresight to fly them into Afghanistan in American or British C-17's as sort of a show & tell demonstration for politicians and media.

To fly them into Afghanistan in leased Antonov's would be beyond stupid from an optics standpoint....



Matthew.  :salute:
 
For the 20, I "think" they meant this variant of the A6:

http://www.defense-update.com/products/l/Leopard-PSO.htm

As for the A4, well, I dunno about us getting them or even if the rumours (in German) referred to the A5, A6 or what.  I believe that they just called them "older" versions.  Since the PSO is the latest, then any other variant would be "older" ;)
 
I think then they should but 80 of the PSO, as it would sell to the public better as it says PEACE support operations. Also it states its good in urban warfare situations, and its the latest version. And if not then buy the A6 or A5.
 
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