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Exploding myths about the US military

Sure, all of the above.  The point I was trying to make is...I would bet they are doing it for reasons other than "I don't have a job".  I just kept it on the 1 point and not all the other ones you mentioned. 

"they are doing it for patriotic reasons" is the point I am making.  Loyalty to buddies, units, the nation...love of their country, family, friends, the things they believe in...

Maybe some are re-up'ing for "lesser" reasons, but I like to believe troops do things for right reasons...
 
Glad to hear all that - sure makes a better military. I left the Canadian one in 1985 after my boss told me "Dunster, the problem with you is that you are treating this as a profession. It's a 9 to 5 job! Smarten up!". My parting words to him were "Guess I'd better find a profession". I'd say despite all the problems with the current Armed forces, it's a far better place than it was... Glad to hear the American economy is booming too. Sure wish it'd trickle down to the East side of the Vistula where I work trying to give my students a future.
 
Trooper Hale said:
I'm sorry if i offended anyone (or everyone). I Meant my post as joke and not to be taken overly seriously.
Like i said in the post, i know a far few really nice Americans, i was just highlighting the way i've seen things but also making a joke about the way things relating to Americans seem to be percieved. I was being a smug sort of ******* and i accept that. Sorry about the whole thing, i just thought a bit of sarcasm and homour might be a good thing every now and then. I'll smarten up.

Well those damm American are annoying, why just last weekend I was in Seattle look at a gunshop selling all sorts of guns I can’t legally buy and ones that I could get legally in Canada where HALF the price of what we pay, now that really annoyed me!!!! So I went and drowned my sorrows in a few dozen Corona’s that were HALF the price as up here! $@$@#$$^$W arrrrrrgh  8)
 
Over the years I was in the service, I trained alongside the militaries of several countries (Canada, :cdn:, Germany, South Korea, Japan, etc.) American Soldiers always tend to look at other nations armies, and say, "Man, those guys are squared away. I wish we could be like that?" I really think we want to be liked and find it sort of offensive when it isn't reciprocated. I remember during Desert Shield, we moved out into an AA near KKMC in the Saudi desert. There were a bunch of British units all around us, and we had just arrived in country. I was on a dismounted patrol with some of my guys and we walked up to a British laager (RHA) and one of my guys asked this British soldier if they were the Desert Rats, since their vehicles had a rat or a gerboa or something painted on them. I think they had them sewn on their shirts too. Anyway, real snooty, this guy replies, "Callin' us "Desert Rats," that's fighting talk." I didn't want to start anything with this guy and his buddies. so we just turned around and walked off. I never forgot it though.

I think one of the big misconceptions about the US Army is that we're cowboys. (no offense to any real cowboys...) In reality, the US Army is so methodical, it's almost painful. We had our Mission Essential Task List, out short- medium and long-range training goals, we had our battle drills, our ARTEPs, risk assessment matrix, laminated checklists, Field and Tactical SOP's and OPORD's so detailed, you could probably run a Corps off one. We had brief backs, Come to Jesus meetings, hot washes, critical milestone briefs, AAR's from hell, etc. I'm not even scratching the surface, but you get the idea.

This is just me, but I think we as an Army have an inferiority complex. We want other armies to look at us for what we are and acknowledge that we're good, not because we're THE super power, but because our men and women are dedicated and just good at what they do.

 
There are few that don't think the US Forces are not professional and "squared away".

Time and again, it is the other countries that stand back and wish they had the same discipline and equipment. When they go into an area, they *ick *ss and take names, and the others are very aware of it.

From what I can see, hear, read, all the NATO nations, Australia, New Zealand, and many others field efficient Forces. None of them should ever feel inferior to the others, they all have their strengths, and weaknesses, but they are all good  :salute:
 
An interesting look at the logistical train the US forces takes into theater, and the pros and cons of this. I must admit the descriptions of the US base in Tusla, Bosnia were pretty mind boggling (although Banja Luka was pretty posh compared to the Ledra Palace hotel in Cyprus).

http://babblingbrooks.blogspot.com/2006/07/two-are-not-mutually-exclusive.html

The two are not mutually exclusive

Max Boot is concerned about troop comfort: he thinks American troops are too comfortable.

Yet there is a danger of professional soldiers becoming so focused on supply lines that they lose sight of larger strategic imperatives. In Afghanistan and Iraq, we may already have crossed that threshold.

In the past few months, I have traveled across U.S. Central Command's area of operations — a vast domain stretching from the deserts of Arabia to the mountains of the Hindu Kush. Everywhere, I have found massive bases fortified with endless rows of concrete barriers and stocked with every convenience known to 21st century Americans.

Some front-line units continue to operate out of spartan outposts where a hot meal is a luxury and flush toilets unknown. But growing numbers of troops live on giant installations complete with Wal-Mart-style post exchanges, movie theaters, swimming pools, gyms, fast-food eateries (Subway, Burger King, Cinnabon) and vast chow halls offering fresh-baked pies and multiple flavors of ice cream. Troops increasingly live in dorm-style quarters (called "chews," for "containerized housing units") complete with TVs, mini-refrigerators, air conditioning/heating units and other luxuries unimaginable to previous generations of GIs.


Mark at Daimnation! seems to agree with Boot's assessment.


The enormous logistical tail of US forces hardly helps counter-insurgency effectiveness - nor do all those lattes...


John at Castle Argghhh!!! does not. John, unlike both Boot and Mark, contributes some context to back up his perspective: first, that American troops have always fought with more amenities than the other guys, and have generally won while doing it, and second, that the supposed 'luxuries' aren't as much of a burden on the warfighting effort as one might initially suppose.


American forces, since the Civil War, have *always* built huge support infrastructures as quickly as we could, consistent with the demands on shipping assets. One has only to look at the 'boring' pictures from WWI, WWII, Korea, to see that as soon as we are able, we build large camps, filled with recreational facilities and troop comforts. It has oft times caused our enemies, and allies, to call us soft, even as we were steamrollering them into the dirt and surrender - if anything, it added to their annoyance.
...
Nor is as much being diverted from the war effort as you might think - MWR (Morale, Welfare and Recreation) activities are not funded using appropriated monies (though they do leverage facilities). Those activities are funded via donation, contract services, the profit from the Exchange system (on-base department stores) and revenues from MWR activities. For example, here at Castle Argghhh! the Equine Family Members live in the stables at Fort Leavenworth - a service we pay for. That activity does *not* pay for it's building (the old 1909 Quartermaster Stables) but do pay for any new construction, electricity, employee salary, etc - and, since 2001, we've been hit with a surcharge of 10% - that goes directly to fund the overseas MWR activity for deployed troops. We tax ourselves, in a sense.


Max and Mark miss the real point entirely, and John only touches upon it: living in some small degree of comfort during off-duty hours, and undertaking a successful counter-insurgency or 3D mission outside the wire aren't mutually exclusive propositions.

If U.S. forces aren't spending enough time outside the wire, then order them to. If the tactics or strategies being employed aren't effective, then change them. But how exactly will taking mini-fridges away from troops make them any more fit to stabilize Iraq or Afghanistan?

Here's your test: if you made every U.S. service member in Central Asia live in a simple hooch, eat nothing but MRE's, and forego all recreational distractions, would the mission be going any better?

Not bloody likely, I say. It would most certainly be going worse, since troops would be more exhaused, more stressed, and more unhappy. Morale affects mission capability. That's such a fundamental concept, I'm amazed it needs to be explained here.

As I understand it, U.S. forces have had a steep learning curve since 2001. They are still struggling to find a balance between interacting with the local population - with all the well-known benefits to HUMINT, credibility, cooperation, et cetera that that confers - and providing security for their forces. The more time you spend outside the wire, the more exposed you are, but the more you can accomplish. There are limits, however: every hour you spend outside the wire is an hour you're 'on' - there's no real downtime in a situation like that, and too much 'on' time will drain you to the point of ineffectiveness. There's no perfect balance point, but it's not too much of a stretch to say that the U.S. could still learn a thing or two from other countries with a bit more experience in this area.

But if troops are spending too much time sipping their morning macchiato and scarfing back their Egg McMuffin, the answer is to get them outside the wire, not to take away their Green Bean and McDonald's.

Conflating increasing troop comfort levels with decreasing mission effectiveness is a mistake.
 
The above thread poses some good points. Here are some ramblings in reply that may turn into a stream of consciousness. (I'm just letting you know in advance.. :warstory:

I spent about seven months in the Gulf during Desert Shield/Storm. This was probably the last war that we've fought in the traditional sense. We spent months in big assembly areas out in the middle of nowhere. We slept on the tracks, ate chow out of bags or mess kits, washed our own laundry and spent 12-18 hours a day doing maintenance, rehearsing and training. It was mind numbingly boring, a drudgery of soldiering that only mail call broke up. I imagine that Soldiers from World War II wouldn't have found field life much different. By the time the ground war kicked off, we were about ready to chew or way through the armor on our tracks, if it would just get us home.

Obviously, things are much different in the stabilization phase of OIF, the IFOR in Bosnia, even in Afghanistan, it sounds like. The phrase "Force Protection" is a mantra int he US armed forces. I went back to Kuwait in 2000 for a short tour at CJTF-Kuwait. I can tell you, the concrete Jersey barriers, Texas barriers and Alaska barriers are a way of life that isn't changing. Oh, I forgot the Hesco barriers. For better or worse, America feels itself at war with terrorism, and this feeling extends out into our armed forces. Force protection measures are THE thing when you're deployed, whether on a ship, in an air base, or an Army patrol.

It's a helluva thing, but history has shown in a bloody fashion that lack of walls and protective measures is deadly to American forces. The Beirut bombing in '83 was a black day and it's remembered. The Khobar Towers bombings, the attack on the Cole, the embassy bombings in Africa: all these are examples that are cited all the time in regard to force protection and the consequences if effective measures aren't taken.

What's the down side? Well, you begin to feel under siege. In Kuwait, we felt like we were in prison sometimes. Surrounded by concrete, plowed strips, watch towers and monochrome tan, you want some relief from the monotony. I'm sure many of ya'll can relate. That's where the entire "slice of home" thing stems from. You put the "protection" of a reinforced enclave together with a relentless war, and it only increases the idea of us and them.

Anyway, I could write more on this topic, but I have to get ready for work.
 
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