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Fairly new here, so here goes my first post. Can experienced troops give some thoughts on Dundurn, SK & your thoughts on Ex Eastern Grizzly...Posters are now out for it, curious on thoughts?
Ex Eastern Grizzly / Dundurn, SK
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All I know is that there is gonna be a few troops suddenly unable to get the time off after all, I know my unit is trying (at least before Christmas when I was in last) to keep it a secret from the troops, gee I think they might notice getting on a bus and heading South instead of North to the Edmonton Airport.... Oh well what do you expect its the second year this has happened, last year they said they didn't get clearance from the USA or something in time, wonder what there excuse is this year???
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Yeah I realize that, and that was the reason for them taking names in the beginning of Sept (not giving those of us with day jobs much time if any to clear it with our bosses) so they would have enough time to finalize it and there fore not have to cancel it again, but I am beginning to get the feeling that someone in Calgary dropped the ball and neglected to to there job....But don't worry the troops don't mind...............
PhilB
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I have to agree, I think a lot of people are going to have trouble getting time off work. My issue is not so much with the location but with the trg. It seems that trg on these brigade ex's always goes off half assed. All of the plans of fibua, convoy, crap goes out the window and we do section attacks. On the odd time that the "cool" trg actually pans out units have done absolutely no trg in that skill prior to the ex, and as a result it turns into a shit show.
Haggis
Army.ca Veteran
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The Librarian said:
In the past that's true, if travelling by service means (Scare Air, DND bus etc.). If on commercial conveyance, you still need a passport. Not sure if things have changed for duty travel to the US since Jan 23, 2007, but I'd bet they have.
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The word I got from the Commander was it was a money issue. The price of the flights were more than doubled than what Bde had anticipated. WRT the passports, a good portion of the Bde would have then from Mountain Grizzly in Fort Lewis.Dixon said:
PhilB
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I think troops are to concerned with where training is being conducted as opposed to what training is being conducted. An exercise practicing un-relevant skills, or skills that are being learned for the first time, is IMHO equally pointless whether it is in California, WATC, Dundurn, or the moon! I would much rather see, good solid relevant skills being polished, after training with that skill for the entire training year leading up to the brigade ex, as opposed to shittier training in a gucci location.
If you want to travel on the military dime go on tour or join the navy. YMMV
If you want to travel on the military dime go on tour or join the navy. YMMV
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I was also told it was a $ issue as costs were going through the roof and the money just was not there to make it happen. My question is will the training still be focused on Urban Combat or will it be on something else?
I think most of our troops were excited about the urban combat training, if that is happening in Dundurn then it will all be OK. (Not much of an urban training center there though! )
I think most of our troops were excited about the urban combat training, if that is happening in Dundurn then it will all be OK. (Not much of an urban training center there though! )
PhilB
Sr. Member
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What urban training are they going to run with no fibua site? also I dont know about other units, but my unit has not conducted any fibua trg this year which means that instead of getting good trg, and polishing skills troops that have very little exposure to fibua will have to be taught, ground up, how to do it.
Like I have been saying, if say for instance, fibua is to be the focus for the brigade ex, then units should be focusing on fibua in their own training throughout the year. If the brigade ex is the first time a skill is being practiced it inevitably turns into a shit show.
Like I have been saying, if say for instance, fibua is to be the focus for the brigade ex, then units should be focusing on fibua in their own training throughout the year. If the brigade ex is the first time a skill is being practiced it inevitably turns into a shit show.
Matt_Fisher
Army.ca Veteran
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In reference to the passport issue of not being able to train in the US, please send this up the chain, in that as a NATO member, members of Canada's Armed Forces are authorized to travel to and through other NATO member's air and landspace as per the NATO Status of Forces Agreement. No passport is required, just a set of bilingual (English & French) travel orders signed by your unit CO and a valid military ID.
Check out the link for more information:
http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/b510619a.htm
Check out the link for more information:
http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/b510619a.htm
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Dixon said:
While I stayed home and opted not to take part in the exercise last year, I do know that they did do helo stuff as I heard all about a certain Bdr from the Edmonton Battery in my Regt falling from the helo while repelling, the only thing that was not clear was how high he fell from as the medic (the same one that tried telling the civi EMTs how to do there job) insisted he fell from 300' but the story I got from guys in my unit was that they were not higher than 30 or 40 feet. But back to the current topic, 1) They where planing of flying on commercial airlines??? Would not one of our airbus's (or what ever they are) not have been cheaper?? 2) I have not been in since before Christmas so I have not seen an updated OP order so as far as I know they are gonna keep with the FIBUA trg, the question is is are they still debating whether or not they are gonna let us (20 Fd) bring our guns, we never seem to get to play with the the rest of the Bde unless we are enemy force or something, usually where are in area L in Wainwright and the rest of the Bde is on the other side of the highway, why?? I don't know, but that just seems to be the way it is, we have how ever fired for the LDSH a few years ago and I think we may have fired in support of troops on Total Ram in 99....and 3) I don't know about the rest of the units in the Bde but the younger troops (The Ptes, Gnrs, and Bdrs) in my Bty seem to have this mentality of "Well if its gonna be fun I can get the time off work but if its isn't I can't" we had one guy that didn't have a job say he couldn't get time off for one ex last year...
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Good Evening All,
My first post here, so I realize I don't have a proven record on this Forum. Those of you reading this from 41 CBG, go ahead and verify details with your Chain of Command.
I am one of the planners for EX EASTERN GRIZZLY 2007, and have been involved with this FTX since September. I'd like to address some of the questions raised in earlier posts. First, a bit of background.
In mid summer 2006, we were put onto Ft Pickett as a possible trg venue for our BTE. The Res Bdes in Atlantic Canada have been conducting Bde level FTXs there for a couple years, with good results. Ft Pickett is a Virginia National Guard trg base, so they unique funding options that differ from our Bases. Their baseline funding can be enhanced based on the number of Units and number of soldiers that exercise on the Base. They have been seeking Cdn participation as a way to establish larger and more secure funding than if they only hosted VNG trg. They have an outstanding trg establishment, and were very accommodating in our initial recces. We wanted to conduct an FTX in a COE setting, practicing Level 2 and 3 FSO and Branch BTS skills. They have facilities that would enhance this type of trg. They have a fixed FOB, and helped us link up with a US QM Bn that needed to conduct force provider support as part of their annual trg plan. They opened all their ranges to us, including an entire MOUT village, and provided quarters, and facilities at minimal or no cost. Other than purchasing consumables, there were no addn charges passed to us.
We had concerns about moving our pers to and from Virginia, and also needed access to a sizeable veh pool. Luckily, 36/37 Bdes from LFAA were planning to conduct EX SOUTHBOUND TROOPER at Ft Pickett a couple weeks before our BTE dates. This allowed an opportunity to negotiate veh/equip sharing with the LFAA units, which could reduce our veh bill and costs. US elms also indicated we could borrow some of their SMPs (HUMVs). The Force Provider Coy would ease our real time CSS setup, allowing our Svc Bn participants to focus on trg. The final hook was an offer of US airlift being avail, at least enough to move 300 or so troops to and from VA.
Comd LFWA supported the Ex concept, so we commenced detailed planning. However, as the fall progressed, the outside sp began to drop off. LFAA participation on Ex SOUTHBOUND TROOPER was cancelled eliminating the veh-sharing prospect. Our staff checks looking for CF AIRBUS support came back negative, due to Cdn strategic lift priorities overseas, and the initial offer of US airlift became "fuzzier" due to their own shifting Op priorities. We staff checked civilian commercial a/c charter for our Main Body movement, and rail move for the vehs we couldn't borrow from Ft Pickett. That option looked achievable within our Bde budget, so staff planning continued, incl our IPC in Sep and MPC in early Nov (with all Units Ops staffs in attendance).
Our Comd was very aware of the consternation caused by the very late shift of location of BTE 2006 from California to AB. Therefore, from the first briefing to Units COs in Sep he was very clear, 41 CBG’s BTE would go ahead 10-17 Mar 07. At the time Ft Pickett looked good, but he was also clear, it may shift back to Canada if resource problems prevented us from going to the US (ie, if fin concerns based on real needs to sp overseas ops). Due to the rapid rise in cbt ops overseas through the spring/summer, Cdn resources were, rightfully, being rapidly diverted to TF 1-06 and 3-06 (as we know this meant addn soldiers, vehs, wpns, and equip, as well as money). Our contingency planning for an altn location early in the fall indicated a good chance WX would not be open to us due to a CMTC serial, and Suffield was not avail. Although we could exercise on civilian land near Edm and Calg, this would curtail any live fire opportunities. Live fire wasn't conducted in BTE 2006, and our Comd wanted to build live fire trg into BTE 2007 if at all possible. Dundurn was eventually selected as the Cdn alternate site because it was avail (no other units exercising there at the time of BTE), we would be able to complete all out planned events within Dundurn (incl live fire 5.56 to 105mm live fire and it was different ground than exercising in Ghost Valley or WX. Obviously winter conditions would be a problem, but that would be a problem with any site in Canada in March.
Although we had enough in our Bde budget to cover costs, Op priorities always take priority over non-high readiness CT. In early Dec we returned to Ft Pickett for our main staff recce. During the recce, two concerns arose that ended up being the final factors in moving the FTX location back to Canada. The offer to "borrow" US vehs for our FTX was withdrawn, as was the option of Air National Guard airlift for moving some of our troops to and from Virginia. This now left us totally dependant on using commercial air and rail to move our BTE participants, vehs and equip to and from the US. Although the QM Bn was still giving us FOB support, it was not enough to offset other tpt costs. In addition, our quote for comm charter aircraft doubled, due to the airlines escalating fuel costs and our rails costs tripled, since we’d now have to ship all vehs, equip and stores. When we returned from the US in early December, we presented options to our Comd. He reviewed all COAs. BTE costs, other than tpt, were fixed, regardless of FTX location (Cl A pay, POL, ammo, rats, external sp, etc). However, tpt cost estimates for charter a/c of 350-400 participants, and for 60-70 vehs had climbed from $600K mid November, to close to $1.5M by mid Dec. Civilian air and rail carriers indicated costs would continue to escalate over the net few months, and our rates couldn’t be locked in until closer to the FTX dates. Our estimates indicated move costs alone could now exceed $2M, since we no longer had option to borrow or share vehs, equip, tpt costs. Mid Dec the Bde Comd issued direction to shift the location of the BTE from the US to Canada, and passed this to Units COs just before Christmas.
We immediately launched on a staff recce to Dundurn and started rewriting all our plans. Unfortunately, Christmas interfered with staff planning and info passage. We have now done two recces to Dundurn, pulled in lots of sp from Cdn elms, rewritten our plans, retooled our CAX, etc. However, the change in venue has set back EX BP by 30 days. Last week we issued the Ex Instruction and revised Op Order (sent to all Ops Os and Units COs), along with CAX Instructions and Orders. The Bde Comd and RSM have been visiting Units to pass information, and still have a couple in Edm to visit.
That's the background. Although we have lost significant time for BP, we are back on track. The EX Aim and Scheme of Manoeuvre have not changed since the Prelim Instruction was issued to all Units in early October. This EX will still focus on FSO and BTS skills at level 2 in a level 3 context for all arms, will take place in the COE built around a scenario based setting. We will continue to practice FSO tasks for all arms (Convoy ops, Force Protection, presence ptls, road blocks/check points, reaction to IED strikes and Direct Action tasks). The PTA will practice all tasks. Sect/det veh and pers wpn live fire will take place for Armd, Inf, Arty, Engr and CSS elms working within a Pl/Tp context. Inf will do dismt live up to sect level, Armd will do G-Wagon live fire in Tp setting, Engr will do dmls, Arty will do live fire at det and tp, and CSS, arty, engrs will do convoy live fire. The PTA will op in a Coy Gp ORBAT (built around Edm and Calg grouped elms), working from a FOB through the week. BTE 2008 will be directly tied to BTE 2007, reinforcing the same skill sets, with the PTA one level higher (2007 PTA level 2 (sect/det) in a level 3 setting (pl/tp), 2008 PTA will be level 3 in a level 4 setting). Gateway trg for BTE 2007 was confirmed in the Prelim Instruction issued in Oct (IBTS 1 for all, PWT 3 for Inf and PWT 1 for all other arms, and review of FSO tasks by all arms). Units have achieved IBTS and PWT level, and most have been practicing FSO skills for more than a year. The only trg still reqd for most Units is training ROEs for the FTX. These will be issued to the EX Chain of Comd during this weekends' CAX.
The ORBAT hasn't change for the PTA since the CFTPO was issued to Unit Ops staffs fol the MPC in early November. All Units pers should be aware at this time of what posn have been assigned to their Unit, both for PTA, and for the trg sp org (A/RSOs, OPFOR, Obsv Controllers and real time admin sp). Movement dates haven't changed, Main Body DAG at local Armouries and depart Sat 10 Mar, Main Body returns to Grn locations Sat 17 Mar. PTA Comd elms are involved in the CAX this weekend, Saturday 0800-1700 for Calg based Coy Gp, and Sunday 0800-1700 for Edm based Coy Gp. CFTPO ORBAT for the CAX has been issued to Unit Op staff. The CAX will be conducted by Calian at the LTF, and is set on the Dundurn terrain where the FTX is sited, and will be set over a 6-8 hour period of the MEL for the FTX.
I'll admit some of our detailed EX product could have gone out to Units a couple weeks earlier (like a web page, posters and CAX instr). I’ll stand up and take the hits for this, and will offer my neck to the EX leadership this weekend! However, Unit staff have had 75% of the planning detail they need since early Nov. Since returning from Christmas, our G3 staff has been heavily engaged in finalizing our portion of the TF 1-08 FPC (which ended today) and for the planning of summer IT and other issues being discussed at the LFWA Ops and Trg Conf going on this week. Some Units are well along in their EX preps and others are not. See your Chain of Comd and Ops staffs for details. I briefed the Unit Chain of Comd on EX concept in Sep, and briefed the Unit Ops staff on planning detail in early Nov. Through this period this EX was never in danger of being cancelled, but it was clearly stated from the first briefing, the EX may have to be pulled back to Canada if costs escalated too high.
Although we have been set back a bit, this EX will proceed, and the plan will be in place upon arrival of the exercise participants in Dundurn. I think those participating, especially at section and detachment level, will find the EX challenging, well paced and that it will improve their skill sets as soldiers working within the COE. Yeah it’ll be colder than Virginia, we’ll probably have veh movement problems, and our MOUT activities will have to be reduced from what we had planned in VA. On the other hand, we’ll compensate for the poor MOUT trg by increasing convoy ops and patrols off Base, allowing interaction with civilian population that we had not planned to conduct in the US. Our soldiers will have an opportunity for a good FTX, practising skills directly applied to overseas ops, and for our junior leaders, a chance to lead your soldiers 24/7 for a full week. You won’t have a chance to bring home a bottle of Duty Free, but you will have a chance to improve your skills as a soldier and a leader working shoulder to shoulder with all the other Bde units.
I'll send another note tonight addressing some of the points posted earlier in this topic.
Cheers!
Greybeard
My first post here, so I realize I don't have a proven record on this Forum. Those of you reading this from 41 CBG, go ahead and verify details with your Chain of Command.
I am one of the planners for EX EASTERN GRIZZLY 2007, and have been involved with this FTX since September. I'd like to address some of the questions raised in earlier posts. First, a bit of background.
In mid summer 2006, we were put onto Ft Pickett as a possible trg venue for our BTE. The Res Bdes in Atlantic Canada have been conducting Bde level FTXs there for a couple years, with good results. Ft Pickett is a Virginia National Guard trg base, so they unique funding options that differ from our Bases. Their baseline funding can be enhanced based on the number of Units and number of soldiers that exercise on the Base. They have been seeking Cdn participation as a way to establish larger and more secure funding than if they only hosted VNG trg. They have an outstanding trg establishment, and were very accommodating in our initial recces. We wanted to conduct an FTX in a COE setting, practicing Level 2 and 3 FSO and Branch BTS skills. They have facilities that would enhance this type of trg. They have a fixed FOB, and helped us link up with a US QM Bn that needed to conduct force provider support as part of their annual trg plan. They opened all their ranges to us, including an entire MOUT village, and provided quarters, and facilities at minimal or no cost. Other than purchasing consumables, there were no addn charges passed to us.
We had concerns about moving our pers to and from Virginia, and also needed access to a sizeable veh pool. Luckily, 36/37 Bdes from LFAA were planning to conduct EX SOUTHBOUND TROOPER at Ft Pickett a couple weeks before our BTE dates. This allowed an opportunity to negotiate veh/equip sharing with the LFAA units, which could reduce our veh bill and costs. US elms also indicated we could borrow some of their SMPs (HUMVs). The Force Provider Coy would ease our real time CSS setup, allowing our Svc Bn participants to focus on trg. The final hook was an offer of US airlift being avail, at least enough to move 300 or so troops to and from VA.
Comd LFWA supported the Ex concept, so we commenced detailed planning. However, as the fall progressed, the outside sp began to drop off. LFAA participation on Ex SOUTHBOUND TROOPER was cancelled eliminating the veh-sharing prospect. Our staff checks looking for CF AIRBUS support came back negative, due to Cdn strategic lift priorities overseas, and the initial offer of US airlift became "fuzzier" due to their own shifting Op priorities. We staff checked civilian commercial a/c charter for our Main Body movement, and rail move for the vehs we couldn't borrow from Ft Pickett. That option looked achievable within our Bde budget, so staff planning continued, incl our IPC in Sep and MPC in early Nov (with all Units Ops staffs in attendance).
Our Comd was very aware of the consternation caused by the very late shift of location of BTE 2006 from California to AB. Therefore, from the first briefing to Units COs in Sep he was very clear, 41 CBG’s BTE would go ahead 10-17 Mar 07. At the time Ft Pickett looked good, but he was also clear, it may shift back to Canada if resource problems prevented us from going to the US (ie, if fin concerns based on real needs to sp overseas ops). Due to the rapid rise in cbt ops overseas through the spring/summer, Cdn resources were, rightfully, being rapidly diverted to TF 1-06 and 3-06 (as we know this meant addn soldiers, vehs, wpns, and equip, as well as money). Our contingency planning for an altn location early in the fall indicated a good chance WX would not be open to us due to a CMTC serial, and Suffield was not avail. Although we could exercise on civilian land near Edm and Calg, this would curtail any live fire opportunities. Live fire wasn't conducted in BTE 2006, and our Comd wanted to build live fire trg into BTE 2007 if at all possible. Dundurn was eventually selected as the Cdn alternate site because it was avail (no other units exercising there at the time of BTE), we would be able to complete all out planned events within Dundurn (incl live fire 5.56 to 105mm live fire and it was different ground than exercising in Ghost Valley or WX. Obviously winter conditions would be a problem, but that would be a problem with any site in Canada in March.
Although we had enough in our Bde budget to cover costs, Op priorities always take priority over non-high readiness CT. In early Dec we returned to Ft Pickett for our main staff recce. During the recce, two concerns arose that ended up being the final factors in moving the FTX location back to Canada. The offer to "borrow" US vehs for our FTX was withdrawn, as was the option of Air National Guard airlift for moving some of our troops to and from Virginia. This now left us totally dependant on using commercial air and rail to move our BTE participants, vehs and equip to and from the US. Although the QM Bn was still giving us FOB support, it was not enough to offset other tpt costs. In addition, our quote for comm charter aircraft doubled, due to the airlines escalating fuel costs and our rails costs tripled, since we’d now have to ship all vehs, equip and stores. When we returned from the US in early December, we presented options to our Comd. He reviewed all COAs. BTE costs, other than tpt, were fixed, regardless of FTX location (Cl A pay, POL, ammo, rats, external sp, etc). However, tpt cost estimates for charter a/c of 350-400 participants, and for 60-70 vehs had climbed from $600K mid November, to close to $1.5M by mid Dec. Civilian air and rail carriers indicated costs would continue to escalate over the net few months, and our rates couldn’t be locked in until closer to the FTX dates. Our estimates indicated move costs alone could now exceed $2M, since we no longer had option to borrow or share vehs, equip, tpt costs. Mid Dec the Bde Comd issued direction to shift the location of the BTE from the US to Canada, and passed this to Units COs just before Christmas.
We immediately launched on a staff recce to Dundurn and started rewriting all our plans. Unfortunately, Christmas interfered with staff planning and info passage. We have now done two recces to Dundurn, pulled in lots of sp from Cdn elms, rewritten our plans, retooled our CAX, etc. However, the change in venue has set back EX BP by 30 days. Last week we issued the Ex Instruction and revised Op Order (sent to all Ops Os and Units COs), along with CAX Instructions and Orders. The Bde Comd and RSM have been visiting Units to pass information, and still have a couple in Edm to visit.
That's the background. Although we have lost significant time for BP, we are back on track. The EX Aim and Scheme of Manoeuvre have not changed since the Prelim Instruction was issued to all Units in early October. This EX will still focus on FSO and BTS skills at level 2 in a level 3 context for all arms, will take place in the COE built around a scenario based setting. We will continue to practice FSO tasks for all arms (Convoy ops, Force Protection, presence ptls, road blocks/check points, reaction to IED strikes and Direct Action tasks). The PTA will practice all tasks. Sect/det veh and pers wpn live fire will take place for Armd, Inf, Arty, Engr and CSS elms working within a Pl/Tp context. Inf will do dismt live up to sect level, Armd will do G-Wagon live fire in Tp setting, Engr will do dmls, Arty will do live fire at det and tp, and CSS, arty, engrs will do convoy live fire. The PTA will op in a Coy Gp ORBAT (built around Edm and Calg grouped elms), working from a FOB through the week. BTE 2008 will be directly tied to BTE 2007, reinforcing the same skill sets, with the PTA one level higher (2007 PTA level 2 (sect/det) in a level 3 setting (pl/tp), 2008 PTA will be level 3 in a level 4 setting). Gateway trg for BTE 2007 was confirmed in the Prelim Instruction issued in Oct (IBTS 1 for all, PWT 3 for Inf and PWT 1 for all other arms, and review of FSO tasks by all arms). Units have achieved IBTS and PWT level, and most have been practicing FSO skills for more than a year. The only trg still reqd for most Units is training ROEs for the FTX. These will be issued to the EX Chain of Comd during this weekends' CAX.
The ORBAT hasn't change for the PTA since the CFTPO was issued to Unit Ops staffs fol the MPC in early November. All Units pers should be aware at this time of what posn have been assigned to their Unit, both for PTA, and for the trg sp org (A/RSOs, OPFOR, Obsv Controllers and real time admin sp). Movement dates haven't changed, Main Body DAG at local Armouries and depart Sat 10 Mar, Main Body returns to Grn locations Sat 17 Mar. PTA Comd elms are involved in the CAX this weekend, Saturday 0800-1700 for Calg based Coy Gp, and Sunday 0800-1700 for Edm based Coy Gp. CFTPO ORBAT for the CAX has been issued to Unit Op staff. The CAX will be conducted by Calian at the LTF, and is set on the Dundurn terrain where the FTX is sited, and will be set over a 6-8 hour period of the MEL for the FTX.
I'll admit some of our detailed EX product could have gone out to Units a couple weeks earlier (like a web page, posters and CAX instr). I’ll stand up and take the hits for this, and will offer my neck to the EX leadership this weekend! However, Unit staff have had 75% of the planning detail they need since early Nov. Since returning from Christmas, our G3 staff has been heavily engaged in finalizing our portion of the TF 1-08 FPC (which ended today) and for the planning of summer IT and other issues being discussed at the LFWA Ops and Trg Conf going on this week. Some Units are well along in their EX preps and others are not. See your Chain of Comd and Ops staffs for details. I briefed the Unit Chain of Comd on EX concept in Sep, and briefed the Unit Ops staff on planning detail in early Nov. Through this period this EX was never in danger of being cancelled, but it was clearly stated from the first briefing, the EX may have to be pulled back to Canada if costs escalated too high.
Although we have been set back a bit, this EX will proceed, and the plan will be in place upon arrival of the exercise participants in Dundurn. I think those participating, especially at section and detachment level, will find the EX challenging, well paced and that it will improve their skill sets as soldiers working within the COE. Yeah it’ll be colder than Virginia, we’ll probably have veh movement problems, and our MOUT activities will have to be reduced from what we had planned in VA. On the other hand, we’ll compensate for the poor MOUT trg by increasing convoy ops and patrols off Base, allowing interaction with civilian population that we had not planned to conduct in the US. Our soldiers will have an opportunity for a good FTX, practising skills directly applied to overseas ops, and for our junior leaders, a chance to lead your soldiers 24/7 for a full week. You won’t have a chance to bring home a bottle of Duty Free, but you will have a chance to improve your skills as a soldier and a leader working shoulder to shoulder with all the other Bde units.
I'll send another note tonight addressing some of the points posted earlier in this topic.
Cheers!
Greybeard
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Yeah thanks for the info, good to see they decided to let us bring our guns now. Now if only they would learn from this year and last year and not plan ex's outside of Canada, in the 8-9 years I've been in there has been 1 or 2 that actually happened and far more that never.....
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Back again. I was looking through some of the posts above, and as a planner for this FTX, I have a few comments. Sorry for the long post, but this forum is a superb medium to pass information to soldiers who don’t have regular access to the DIN. I realize it shortcuts the information flow from the Chain of Command, but my experience over the past few years with the part time Army, you need to use many methods of delivering informtion, especially once the initial message has been passed to the Chain of Command, and they have had time to pass the material to their subordinates.
PASSPORT/CROSS BORDER MOVE PROBLEMS
There were no problems with the cross border move clearances. They were received at CDLS (W) before Christmas for 450 pers (that was the max EX participants). The XB Move O had to leave our HQ NLT 60 days before the first flight. We were worried about the Move O getting delayed over Christmas, so we wanted to send it up the Chain by 1 Dec 06. We new it was early for names to be confirmed, so we directed Unit Ops staffs to complete CFTPO by 1 Dec, putting in as many names as could be confirmed a that time, and to fill their remaining assigned CFTPO positions with "place holders". I was important to get the travel numbers approved, and it is easier to add/delete names from the Move O than it is to insert new numbers closer to the FTX. We also had to add the serial number for all wpns, vehs, radios and equip being shipped to the US. As mentioned, all Units provided this info and the X-border papers were sent 100 days ahead of the travel dates, well within the timelines. Unfortunately the EX was shifted back to Canada at the same time the X-Border request was approved (See my earlier post).
Passports were not a concern. As a member of NATO, our troops can travel to the US as long as they are on military duty, have a valid ID card and their names are listed on an approved NATO travel order, and the X-border Mov O. We also liaised with US customs staff at the air point of arrival in the US, and were working with the US customs staff in Calg/Edm for screening of our Main Body. We had some concerns about those pers travelling outside of the Main Body a/c (Adv party, early repats, etc, but that could have been resolved with a specific NATO travel order and direct early liaison with US customs staff. Cross border movement, although somewhat complicated, was GTG.
However, due to the new US travel regs, it just makes sense for indiv soldiers to hold a passport. NATO travel orders do work, but if you unexpectedly have to travel alone in the US, (like an compassionate repat from a planned FTX in the US), you may encounter a problem with staff t the airport you are routed through in Upper Rubber Boot Arkansas were they don’t regularly see NATO travel orders and CF ID cards! Plus you need one now for non-military US air travel and next yr will need one for crossing a land or sea entry point.
URBAN TRG
We will have expedient MOUT facilities. They will not be as good as the MOUT village we had avail in the US. We will build in addn presence and FP tasks within the civilian communities around the Base. Obviously, we won't be able to practice robust entry drills in the Dundurn Community Hall, so we'll alter the tasks accordingly.
HELO TRG
We expected HELO sp in the US from Army avn elms. 408 weren’t invited to participate due to distance to VA and costs. Now that we are working in SK, we are checking to see if they can sp. However, it s late in their FY, and we do not know if they have the a/c of staff flying hours o sp this unforecasted req. WAIT OUT.
ARTILLERY TASKS
We have developed MEL down to 4-hour blocks through the week. All arms will participate in both FSO tasks and Branch specific trg. This includes Arty. The arty tp (made up of 20 Fd and 18 AD pers qual Fd Arty) will conduct FSO tasks (road blocks, check points, force protection tasks, presence ptls, reaction to IED strikes). They will do live fire convoy rge trg, and they will live and work out of the FOB with everyone else. They will also do live howitzer firing if they have the reqd staff on the FTX. 20 Fd isn't sure if they will have the pers on the FTX do conduct tp live fire. I they cannot conduct normal CS to other arms for Direct Action tasks, hopefully HF live task or # 1s Open Action tasks will be possible. These var tasks will be alternated throughout the week based on the scenario and MEL. Det Comds and Gun Dets will have a good workout on this FTX.
OPFOR
18 AD is tasked to coord OPFOR, but OPFOR must be provided from all Units. Since the focus of this FTX is on the sect/det level, we will need a very robust OPFOR, who will work primarily in gps of 2-3 pers. They will work as interactors across the AOR, presenting problems and challenges to the sect/det Comds. OPFOR may role play as a local civ seeking med assistance, a farmer who discovers and IE in their field and wants the Cdns to do something about it, they may be insurgent sympathisers harassing our ptls, or classic insurgents doing drive by shootings of a check point or op a VBIED. They'll work closely with the Ex Dir and O/Cs to enact scenarios for the Sect Comds to react to. We have asked Units to incl a good selection of our cbt vets from 1-06 to ensure we get a realistic portrayal of problems and situations they encountered overseas. Although we certainly need those folks commanding our sections, it is also important we get their skills and experience testing and mentoring our PTS from the point of view of OPFOR/role players as well as Observer Controllers.
DRILLS BEING PRACTICED
Since this is first part of a two-year trg approach, the assigned BTS and TTPs are the basis for next years trg. The assigned tasks can be found on the Bde Intranet site, and are taken directly from the new release of the Army BTS, common skills and branch specific skills applicable to COE activities.
(The Bde Internet site is http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/41cbg_hq/ . Gen info will be posted to the WWW, and the Intranet site will be used for reference material that cannot be linked to the WWW).
All Units have generally completed the gateway trg for the FTX. Some Inf participants may not have completed live fire up to Gp/Pairs/PWT III. We have allocated trg time for this trg if reqd, all participants will need to confirm zeroing for their pers wpn on arrival.
EX CANCELLED/CHANGES IN TIMINGS AND LOCATION
Pls refer to my background post earlier in this thread for addn detail. However, the EX dates haven’t shifted since being published in the Bde Op Plan. Deployment dates have changed since May 2006, and remain 10-17 Mar 2007. Troops have had ten months to seek time off from their civilian commitments, which should have been long enough. Although the EX location did shift, the message that the primary location was the US, with a Cdn altn location was clearly passed in all correspondence and briefings connected to the FTX. I personally participated in briefings three times to Unit COs/RSMs, once to the Units’ H Cols and to all Unit Ops and Trg Staffs a number of times incl the daylong MPC for EX EASTEN GRIZZLY, which staff from all Units attended. Dates, aims and location were passed going back to September 2006.
I ACK members of 41 CBG are disappointed about the shift in location. I fully understand, and was looking forward to going to VA. Believe me this was not a nefarious plan to confuse/mislead the Bde! I was not keen at having to completely rewrite all EX Papers and start from scratch on planning for a new location. However, the Comd and Bde RSM were insistent this EX not be cancelled. That would have been the easiest option just before Christmas, but that would have been a lost trg opportunity. They insisted the staff planners keep a viable option available in case the US option soured. Fortunately their insistence paid dividends, and although we have altered the time alloc to different activities, we have not had to drop any of our planned trg activities and objectives.
NEXT YEARS BTE
This is likely the last year of Bde driven BTEs in LFWA, at least for the next couple years. Up until now, Bde Comds have had the flexibility to plan and conduct BTEs dev by themselves. Within our Area, our significant contribution to TF 1-08 (in general, 20% of the strength of 38, 39 and 41 CBG will be deployed on 1-08), and similar numbers on TF 3-09, means the CBGs likely won't have enough pers to run a BTE until post Olympics. In addition, although it is unlikely our Bdes will be ready for a Res CMTC series before 2010, we will likely receive direction from CLS to commence the "Road to CMTC", which will include common trg objs and gateways in prep of a summer CMTC serial 2010/2011. Although this direction is in the future, it is anticipated ea CBG will be assigned resources and a "road map" or work up trg, that will replace the Bde generated BTE and CT goals. This will subsequently limit flexibility in picking trg locations and objs in the future, in order to ensure all CBGs across the country are focusing on a common op picture in support of domestic and international op assigned objectives
We are in the process of submitting our Op Plan for LFWA approval. We will not conduct a BTE in FY 2007/2008. Our Comd intends to build on this years BTE trg goals and obj, but he may delegate those tasks to Comds of TF N and S to complete within their assigned TFs or he may move the focus and responsibility to Comd of the Edm TDBG standing up this year. Regardless, BTE confirmation/conduct will take place in the fol FY, end Apr/early May 08, to fit between end of classes for University/Colleges and before summer IT fully stands up, and it may just occur over a weekend. Assigned BTS/TTPs and gateway trg will be issued to Unit COs in our upcoming Bde Op Plan for implementation in the 2007-2008 FY, but the confirmation FTX remains TBD. Further, our Bde will not plan a BTE type activity in the US in the upcoming FY.
SUM UP!
Those who do participate in the FTX can take one small consolation with them. For those of you who are shivering at the thought of Dundurn in March, can take some comfort in knowing that us low shoe floppers in Bde HQ will have already spent close to two shivering weeks there on recces in Dec, Jan, Feb and Adv Party in early Mar. We’ll do our best to melt the snow and warm up the trg area before the troops arrive!
Cheers!
PASSPORT/CROSS BORDER MOVE PROBLEMS
There were no problems with the cross border move clearances. They were received at CDLS (W) before Christmas for 450 pers (that was the max EX participants). The XB Move O had to leave our HQ NLT 60 days before the first flight. We were worried about the Move O getting delayed over Christmas, so we wanted to send it up the Chain by 1 Dec 06. We new it was early for names to be confirmed, so we directed Unit Ops staffs to complete CFTPO by 1 Dec, putting in as many names as could be confirmed a that time, and to fill their remaining assigned CFTPO positions with "place holders". I was important to get the travel numbers approved, and it is easier to add/delete names from the Move O than it is to insert new numbers closer to the FTX. We also had to add the serial number for all wpns, vehs, radios and equip being shipped to the US. As mentioned, all Units provided this info and the X-border papers were sent 100 days ahead of the travel dates, well within the timelines. Unfortunately the EX was shifted back to Canada at the same time the X-Border request was approved (See my earlier post).
Passports were not a concern. As a member of NATO, our troops can travel to the US as long as they are on military duty, have a valid ID card and their names are listed on an approved NATO travel order, and the X-border Mov O. We also liaised with US customs staff at the air point of arrival in the US, and were working with the US customs staff in Calg/Edm for screening of our Main Body. We had some concerns about those pers travelling outside of the Main Body a/c (Adv party, early repats, etc, but that could have been resolved with a specific NATO travel order and direct early liaison with US customs staff. Cross border movement, although somewhat complicated, was GTG.
However, due to the new US travel regs, it just makes sense for indiv soldiers to hold a passport. NATO travel orders do work, but if you unexpectedly have to travel alone in the US, (like an compassionate repat from a planned FTX in the US), you may encounter a problem with staff t the airport you are routed through in Upper Rubber Boot Arkansas were they don’t regularly see NATO travel orders and CF ID cards! Plus you need one now for non-military US air travel and next yr will need one for crossing a land or sea entry point.
URBAN TRG
We will have expedient MOUT facilities. They will not be as good as the MOUT village we had avail in the US. We will build in addn presence and FP tasks within the civilian communities around the Base. Obviously, we won't be able to practice robust entry drills in the Dundurn Community Hall, so we'll alter the tasks accordingly.
HELO TRG
We expected HELO sp in the US from Army avn elms. 408 weren’t invited to participate due to distance to VA and costs. Now that we are working in SK, we are checking to see if they can sp. However, it s late in their FY, and we do not know if they have the a/c of staff flying hours o sp this unforecasted req. WAIT OUT.
ARTILLERY TASKS
We have developed MEL down to 4-hour blocks through the week. All arms will participate in both FSO tasks and Branch specific trg. This includes Arty. The arty tp (made up of 20 Fd and 18 AD pers qual Fd Arty) will conduct FSO tasks (road blocks, check points, force protection tasks, presence ptls, reaction to IED strikes). They will do live fire convoy rge trg, and they will live and work out of the FOB with everyone else. They will also do live howitzer firing if they have the reqd staff on the FTX. 20 Fd isn't sure if they will have the pers on the FTX do conduct tp live fire. I they cannot conduct normal CS to other arms for Direct Action tasks, hopefully HF live task or # 1s Open Action tasks will be possible. These var tasks will be alternated throughout the week based on the scenario and MEL. Det Comds and Gun Dets will have a good workout on this FTX.
OPFOR
18 AD is tasked to coord OPFOR, but OPFOR must be provided from all Units. Since the focus of this FTX is on the sect/det level, we will need a very robust OPFOR, who will work primarily in gps of 2-3 pers. They will work as interactors across the AOR, presenting problems and challenges to the sect/det Comds. OPFOR may role play as a local civ seeking med assistance, a farmer who discovers and IE in their field and wants the Cdns to do something about it, they may be insurgent sympathisers harassing our ptls, or classic insurgents doing drive by shootings of a check point or op a VBIED. They'll work closely with the Ex Dir and O/Cs to enact scenarios for the Sect Comds to react to. We have asked Units to incl a good selection of our cbt vets from 1-06 to ensure we get a realistic portrayal of problems and situations they encountered overseas. Although we certainly need those folks commanding our sections, it is also important we get their skills and experience testing and mentoring our PTS from the point of view of OPFOR/role players as well as Observer Controllers.
DRILLS BEING PRACTICED
Since this is first part of a two-year trg approach, the assigned BTS and TTPs are the basis for next years trg. The assigned tasks can be found on the Bde Intranet site, and are taken directly from the new release of the Army BTS, common skills and branch specific skills applicable to COE activities.
(The Bde Internet site is http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/41cbg_hq/ . Gen info will be posted to the WWW, and the Intranet site will be used for reference material that cannot be linked to the WWW).
All Units have generally completed the gateway trg for the FTX. Some Inf participants may not have completed live fire up to Gp/Pairs/PWT III. We have allocated trg time for this trg if reqd, all participants will need to confirm zeroing for their pers wpn on arrival.
EX CANCELLED/CHANGES IN TIMINGS AND LOCATION
Pls refer to my background post earlier in this thread for addn detail. However, the EX dates haven’t shifted since being published in the Bde Op Plan. Deployment dates have changed since May 2006, and remain 10-17 Mar 2007. Troops have had ten months to seek time off from their civilian commitments, which should have been long enough. Although the EX location did shift, the message that the primary location was the US, with a Cdn altn location was clearly passed in all correspondence and briefings connected to the FTX. I personally participated in briefings three times to Unit COs/RSMs, once to the Units’ H Cols and to all Unit Ops and Trg Staffs a number of times incl the daylong MPC for EX EASTEN GRIZZLY, which staff from all Units attended. Dates, aims and location were passed going back to September 2006.
I ACK members of 41 CBG are disappointed about the shift in location. I fully understand, and was looking forward to going to VA. Believe me this was not a nefarious plan to confuse/mislead the Bde! I was not keen at having to completely rewrite all EX Papers and start from scratch on planning for a new location. However, the Comd and Bde RSM were insistent this EX not be cancelled. That would have been the easiest option just before Christmas, but that would have been a lost trg opportunity. They insisted the staff planners keep a viable option available in case the US option soured. Fortunately their insistence paid dividends, and although we have altered the time alloc to different activities, we have not had to drop any of our planned trg activities and objectives.
NEXT YEARS BTE
This is likely the last year of Bde driven BTEs in LFWA, at least for the next couple years. Up until now, Bde Comds have had the flexibility to plan and conduct BTEs dev by themselves. Within our Area, our significant contribution to TF 1-08 (in general, 20% of the strength of 38, 39 and 41 CBG will be deployed on 1-08), and similar numbers on TF 3-09, means the CBGs likely won't have enough pers to run a BTE until post Olympics. In addition, although it is unlikely our Bdes will be ready for a Res CMTC series before 2010, we will likely receive direction from CLS to commence the "Road to CMTC", which will include common trg objs and gateways in prep of a summer CMTC serial 2010/2011. Although this direction is in the future, it is anticipated ea CBG will be assigned resources and a "road map" or work up trg, that will replace the Bde generated BTE and CT goals. This will subsequently limit flexibility in picking trg locations and objs in the future, in order to ensure all CBGs across the country are focusing on a common op picture in support of domestic and international op assigned objectives
We are in the process of submitting our Op Plan for LFWA approval. We will not conduct a BTE in FY 2007/2008. Our Comd intends to build on this years BTE trg goals and obj, but he may delegate those tasks to Comds of TF N and S to complete within their assigned TFs or he may move the focus and responsibility to Comd of the Edm TDBG standing up this year. Regardless, BTE confirmation/conduct will take place in the fol FY, end Apr/early May 08, to fit between end of classes for University/Colleges and before summer IT fully stands up, and it may just occur over a weekend. Assigned BTS/TTPs and gateway trg will be issued to Unit COs in our upcoming Bde Op Plan for implementation in the 2007-2008 FY, but the confirmation FTX remains TBD. Further, our Bde will not plan a BTE type activity in the US in the upcoming FY.
SUM UP!
Those who do participate in the FTX can take one small consolation with them. For those of you who are shivering at the thought of Dundurn in March, can take some comfort in knowing that us low shoe floppers in Bde HQ will have already spent close to two shivering weeks there on recces in Dec, Jan, Feb and Adv Party in early Mar. We’ll do our best to melt the snow and warm up the trg area before the troops arrive!
Cheers!
HUA Greybeard
Good to actually get the straight dice form someone in the know, not the filter down from the mill. (Life as a Pte, aint it grand)
I am, Disappointed in the shift of loc, however, I understand that as costs rise and realworld deployments get priority for funds for consumables etc then Im GTG on that, and shit, 10days trg somewhere other than the backlot of Jefferson Armouries or Wx, Well then im in Like Flinn
Going to have ask the CoC about OPFOR Employment, as I quite enjoy playing enemaforce.
But all In all sounds like the Bde has planned a nifty to-do in the barrenlands of saskatchistan
And by the jesus, it never ceases to amaze me the behind the scenes you folks gotta run top get a jam like this together.
Pte Dixon, Out
PS: On the helo support, I have some contacts if you want with E-Z Air in Edmonton, has a few Bell 206's for charter
Good to actually get the straight dice form someone in the know, not the filter down from the mill. (Life as a Pte, aint it grand)
I am, Disappointed in the shift of loc, however, I understand that as costs rise and realworld deployments get priority for funds for consumables etc then Im GTG on that, and shit, 10days trg somewhere other than the backlot of Jefferson Armouries or Wx, Well then im in Like Flinn
Going to have ask the CoC about OPFOR Employment, as I quite enjoy playing enemaforce.
But all In all sounds like the Bde has planned a nifty to-do in the barrenlands of saskatchistan
And by the jesus, it never ceases to amaze me the behind the scenes you folks gotta run top get a jam like this together.
Pte Dixon, Out
PS: On the helo support, I have some contacts if you want with E-Z Air in Edmonton, has a few Bell 206's for charter
