EV's, Gas/Oil, and The Future- another swerve split from- JT Hints Boosting Canada’s Military Spending

[ytz]

Some of you haven't kept up on the state of the tech. Any review of the Mirai is scathing. That's why Toyota practically gives them away.

Not to mention current owners are suing:

Frustrated Mirai Owners Sue Toyota Over Hydrogen Headaches | Carscoops

With hydrogen often unavailable for days and the persistent issue of non-functional refueling stations, Mirai owners appear to have reached their breaking point

www.carscoops.com

 

[Kirkhill]

In the US, what is the sum total of leos, ems, guard, dod and doe as a percent of GDP?

In Europe there is a considerable degree of overlap between agencies complicating the 2% discussion.

 

[KevinB]

In the US, what is the sum total of leos, ems, guard, dod and doe as a percent of GDP?

In Europe there is a considerable degree of overlap between agencies complicating the 2% discussion.

Wrong thread.

 

[Good2Golf]

Some of you haven't kept up on the state of the tech. Any review of the Mirai is scathing. That's why Toyota practically gives them away.

Not to mention current owners are suing:

Frustrated Mirai Owners Sue Toyota Over Hydrogen Headaches | Carscoops

With hydrogen often unavailable for days and the persistent issue of non-functional refueling stations, Mirai owners appear to have reached their breaking point

www.carscoops.com

So you’re not a fan of hydrogen cars?

Lithium away!

 

[ytz]

So you’re not a fan of hydrogen cars?

Lithium away!

Not opposed to them. I just think the ship has sailed on the tech. People forget that before Tesla, EVs were there too. EV charging was ridiculously slow and not widespread and nobody would buy EVs because there was no charging. Tesla built a charging network to help sell EVs and that kicked off a virtuous EV adoption and investment cycle. Toyota keeps complaining about how hydrogen is "chicken or egg" problem, but they refuse to build filling stations to kick-start FCEV adoption. That's why I think it's a lost cause for consumer vehicles.

I think there's a place for hydrogen. Heavy transport. Stationary fuel. Industrial feedstock. But when there's a dozen Red Lobsters for every H2 filling station, you know they're struggling with consumers.

 

[childs56]

Balance of payments. Every dollar spent on imported oil and gas for them is one less dollar to spend on infrastructure, education, etc all the things they need to develop their country. And worse, they get rupees and yuans for their exports and have to pay for oil and gas in USD. That's even more brutal for them. So they absolutely are motivated to limit oil and gas consumption to the extent that their economic growth and quality of life improvements allow.

I was under the impression that most international trade is in USD/ gold and other precious metals. Then converted to local currency. I have yet to see any large companies transfer much outside of USD and Euros unless the companied/ country requests it. That has been my experience with things.

Have you ever taken thermodynamics? It's pretty simple to understand why converting water using electricity and then using that instead of just using the electricity is more inefficient and therefore more expensive. It's also more electricity in total (to overcome losses) which means you'd need more electricity infrastructure, not less.

LOL, that is why our government approved a Windfarm on the East coast to provide green energy to make green hydrogen.

Going green (electric, hydrogen) is not cheap or easy. It is very costly in both labor required, resources needed and dollars.

 

[ytz]

I was under the impression that most international trade is in USD/ gold and other precious metals. Then converted to local currency. I have yet to see any large companies transfer much outside of USD and Euros unless the companied/ country requests it. That has been my experience with things.

And that's exactly why having to import fuel is a substantial burden on a developing economy. They don't have a lot of dollars coming in. Export led development requires a surplus of dollars. It's harder to do that if you have to regularly buy fuel at volatile prices in USD.

Look at it from their perspective. Not ours. And you'll get it. Coal is cheap and local. They can burn it and get the electricity to power EVs. Precious foreign currency is preserved for other priorities.

LOL, that is why our government approved a Windfarm on the East coast to provide green energy to make green hydrogen.

Not sure what this has to do with explaining why the thermodynamics of hydrogen doesn't work in fuel cells for passenger cars. But there is a market for hydrogen as industrial feedstock. All that said, nobody has ever suggested that this government was technically literate. Also, if we were really brutal, we should demand that European industries move to Canada and set up here to benefit from cheaper energy instead of shipping them cheap fuel.

 

[Kirkhill]

And that's exactly why having to import fuel is a substantial burden on a developing economy. They don't have a lot of dollars coming in. Export led development requires a surplus of dollars. It's harder to do that if you have to regularly buy fuel at volatile prices in USD.

Look at it from their perspective. Not ours. And you'll get it. Coal is cheap and local. They can burn it and get the electricity to power EVs. Precious foreign currency is preserved for other priorities.



Not sure what this has to do with explaining why the thermodynamics of hydrogen doesn't work in fuel cells for passenger cars. But there is a market for hydrogen as industrial feedstock. All that said, nobody has ever suggested that this government was technically literate. Also, if we were really brutal, we should demand that European industries move to Canada and set up here to benefit from cheaper energy instead of shipping them cheap fuel.

Which is why the rule should be "horses for course". Build everything and let the market decide.

If a coal fired power plant with ccs and scrubbers that doubles as a local incinerator and EVs costs less than F150s in your area then fill your boots

1000 km of electrical pylons costs money too.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Which is why the rule should be "horses for course". Build everything and let the market decide.

If a coal fired power plant with ccs and scrubbers that doubles as a local incinerator and EVs costs less than F150s in your area then fill your boots

1000 km of electrical pylons costs money too.

I was reviewing a coal fired power plant near Tumble Ridge. Right beside the proposed plant was the exposed coal seam and existing power grid was 5km away. So a front end loader could take the coal out of the hill and dump it straight into the hopper of the plant. They were going to use modern (2008) tech for scrubbing the emissions from the stack. The project died when the governments said "We aren't reviewing any new coal plants". It would not matter how clean they were or what the companies actual carbon footprint, it was purely optics that killed it.

 

[Kirkhill]

I was reviewing a coal fired power plant near Tumble Ridge. Right beside the proposed plant was the exposed coal seam and existing power grid was 5km away. So a front end loader could take the coal out of the hill and dump it straight into the hopper of the plant. They were going to use modern (2008) tech for scrubbing the emissions from the stack. The project died when the governments said "We aren't reviewing any new coal plants". It would not matter how clean they were or what the companies actual carbon footprint, it was purely optics that killed it.

Similar situation to the Sheerness power plant, and Coronach. Both built right on coal mines.

 

[YZT580]

And that's exactly why having to import fuel is a substantial burden on a developing economy. They don't have a lot of dollars coming in. Export led development requires a surplus of dollars. It's harder to do that if you have to regularly buy fuel at volatile prices in USD.

Look at it from their perspective. Not ours. And you'll get it. Coal is cheap and local. They can burn it and get the electricity to power EVs. Precious foreign currency is preserved for other priorities.



Not sure what this has to do with explaining why the thermodynamics of hydrogen doesn't work in fuel cells for passenger cars. But there is a market for hydrogen as industrial feedstock. All that said, nobody has ever suggested that this government was technically literate. Also, if we were really brutal, we should demand that European industries move to Canada and set up here to benefit from cheaper energy instead of shipping them cheap fuel.

have you been to places like Mali, Uganda and the like and seen the pollution from charcoal pits, coal etc? They don't need 70,000 dollar electric cars. By your logic, they should continue running their current systems but channel the results into producing electricity to power their EV/s. Why not bypass the electric thing and just power the vehicle directly like this.

 

[YZT580]

Third world countries and even more developed places like India need reliable fuel sources to get them off of coal. They need assistance in developing the infrastructure to support the use of cleaner fuels to produce local electricity to power light bulbs so they can read and stoves that don't create vision and breathing problems. Drive down the main street in places like Bamako and count the number of extension cords running off a single post into shacks and then tell me where they are going to find the extra power to charge an electric scooter. The power goes off there on a regular basis for hours at a time. Outside of the city there are no electric services at all unless it is a local generator so start shipping efficient diesel or gas generators to these places. It is a lot cheaper to drive a fuel tanker to the next town then it is to try and string copper and you can have it now and there is no fear of thieves stealing the wire.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Solar and Cellular are blessings for most of the developing world. One thing Canada and the West can do is support the low level water infrastructure project you see here, both in Africa and Central Asia. It's one of the areas where the UN is actually doing some good work for a change.

 

[ytz]

have you been to places like Mali, Uganda and the like and seen the pollution from charcoal pits, coal etc? They don't need 70,000 dollar electric cars. By your logic, they should continue running their current systems but channel the results into producing electricity to power their EV/s. Why not bypass the electric thing and just power the vehicle directly like this.
View attachment 86630

I should ask you how much experience you have in the developing world beyond simply deploying to some failed state. Cause your post reads like ignorant Westerner.

Nobody in India is thinking about about a $70 000 EV. Yet, electrification is growing. How? Because for them this is an EV:

Electric rickshaw - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That's $5000. This is also an EV:

That's $3k. This is the most popular electric CUV in India and it's about $30k:

In most of the world, a gas powered mobile living room is impractical and unaffordable. Mobility is a real priority and they aren't driving 50 km to work. They are taking a rickshaw or getting a ride to a train station, or getting across town on a electric scooter or motorcycle. None of those applications need gigantic 70 kWh batteries. Their batteries are so small they can swap them:

Indeed, they've been building electric rickshaws with lead-acid batteries for decades. Li-ion is simply a natural evolution over there. It allows them to do wholesale conversions to electric like Thailand converting all their Tuk Tuks:

Thailand’s tuk-tuks go green amid rising demand for electric models

Travel without the combustion-engine fumes and noise is increasingly popular in the country with some of the world’s worst air pollution

www.theguardian.com

But when you're used to $70 000 F150s, it's pretty hard to comprehend the value of a $5k three-wheeler.

 

[childs56]

And that's exactly why having to import fuel is a substantial burden on a developing economy. They don't have a lot of dollars coming in. Export led development requires a surplus of dollars. It's harder to do that if you have to regularly buy fuel at volatile prices in USD.

India is not a developing country, nor is China. They both are increasing their demand for oil, natural gas and coal. Both for power and also manufacturing.

Look at it from their perspective. Not ours. And you'll get it. Coal is cheap and local. They can burn it and get the electricity to power EVs. Precious foreign currency is preserved for other priorities.

Coal cant be that local they import vast quantities from Australia, Canada and the US

Not sure what this has to do with explaining why the thermodynamics of hydrogen doesn't work in fuel cells for passenger cars.

I did not realize we were discussing cars making hydrogen individually. That would be silly.

But there is a market for hydrogen as industrial feedstock.

That is why Alberta is one of the largest producers of Hydrogen.

All that said, nobody has ever suggested that this government was technically literate. Also, if we were really brutal, we should demand that European industries move to Canada and set up here to benefit from cheaper energy instead of shipping them cheap fuel.

We don't really ship much energy to Europe. So that would be a mute point. It sure would be nice for us to have that big natural gas pipeline going east to the coast for shipping it to Europe.

 

[ytz]

India is not a developing country,

Not sure you know what a developing country is. The IMF, World Bank and virtually every other global and financial institution considers them a developing country based on GDP per capita and HDI. But I'm sure you know more than them.

 

[Quirky]

Some of their street food vendor videos are beyond horrifying. Stomachs of steel.

 

[childs56]

I should ask you how much experience you have in the developing world beyond simply deploying to some failed state. Cause your post reads like ignorant Westerner.

Nobody in India is thinking about about a $70 000 EV. Yet, electrification is growing. How? Because for them this is an EV:

Electricity is cheap, they don't follow the same rules we do for production, distribution or regulation.

In most of the world, a gas powered mobile living room is impractical and unaffordable.

Most of what world? India and China seem to have the largest populations and tend to have so much traffic that they have to limit the amount of vehicles on their city roads. Just due to volume of traffic.

Mobility is a real priority and they aren't driving 50 km to work. They are taking a rickshaw or getting a ride to a train station, or getting across town on a electric scooter or motorcycle.

What is the ratio of electric to gasoline scooter/motorcycle/rickshaws.

None of those applications need gigantic 70 kWh batteries. Indeed, they've been building electric rickshaws with lead-acid batteries for decades. Li-ion is simply a natural evolution over there.

It allows them to do wholesale conversions to electric like Thailand converting all their Tuk Tuks:

Where does Thailand or how do they produce the majority of their electricity, for all those electric vehicles?

But when you're used to $70 000 F150s, it's pretty hard to comprehend the value of a $5k three-wheeler.

Actually I would love to be able to buy a little electric car, for example a golf cart that I could drive back and forth to work in. Indirect Free to me power at work to charge the batteries. I have a commute of about 14km each way.

 

[ytz]

Electricity is cheap, they don't follow the same rules we do for production, distribution or regulation.

It's not. But it's a lot cheaper than gasoline. And that's why electrification of transport is catching on faster over there than here. Using India as an example, gas there costs something like $1.6/L in a country where average monthly salary is less than $500. By contrast electricity is about 9¢/kWh. And 1 kWh can get you 10 km of driving in an electric CUV.

What is the ratio of electric to gasoline scooter/motorcycle/rickshaws.

Globally Bloomberg estimates what 47% of two and three wheeler sales are electric annually, with an install base of 300M and cumulatively they are already displacing 1Mbpd of oil demand.

EVO Report 2024 | BloombergNEF | Bloomberg Finance LP

The Electric Vehicle Outlook is our annual long-term publication looking at how electrification, shared mobility, autonomous driving and other factors will impact road transport in the coming decades.

about.bnef.com

Where does Thailand or how do they produce the majority of their electricity, for all those electric vehicles?

Not sure what your point is. But central power generation to fuel EVs is actually more efficient than burning petrol in cars because large thermal power plants have double the thermodynamic efficiency of a 4 cylinder. You could burn 100% coal to power EVs and the emissions work out to on par with a Prius.

You can see for yourself here. Use West Virginia with their 90% coal grid and compare EV emissions to hybrid or gas car.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Emissions from Electric Vehicles

As for Thailand itself, as per Wiki, their grid is 65% natural gas, 20% coal with the rest being hydro, biomass and biogas.

 

[childs56]

It's not. But it's a lot cheaper than gasoline. And that's why electrification of transport is catching on faster over there than here. Using India as an example, gas there costs something like $1.6/L in a country where average monthly salary is less than $500. By contrast electricity is about 9¢/kWh. And 1 kWh can get you 10 km of driving in an electric CUV.

That electricity is made using the majority coal, natural gas. Which does not meet our standards nor ever will. So they get to pollute using their net zero electric chariot's. Also get to buy cheap fuel on the market to do so.

Globally Bloomberg estimates what 47% of two and three wheeler sales are electric annually, with an install base of 300M and cumulatively they are already displacing 1Mbpd of oil demand.

EVO Report 2024 | BloombergNEF | Bloomberg Finance LP

The Electric Vehicle Outlook is our annual long-term publication looking at how electrification, shared mobility, autonomous driving and other factors will impact road transport in the coming decades.

about.bnef.com

Not sure what your point is. But central power generation to fuel EVs is actually more efficient than burning petrol in cars because large thermal power plants have double the thermodynamic efficiency of a 4 cylinder. You could burn 100% coal to power EVs and the emissions work out to on par with a Prius.

So they will still be reliant on Coal and Natural gas in the future?