Every westerner should see this

[mediocre1]

For sure, one just has to look at our own society here in the west, white supremacists, christen fanatics etc. fanatics exist in MANY flavours!

The democratic West countries are governed by laws that debar these abominations. We have laws that  cover discrimination whether they be religious or race. Consider the laws that the Taliban has imposed. They're not only barbaric. They're crazy. It would be good to pay lip service to America for having been governed by reasonable laws.

 

[Red Hackle]

The big problem is that we hear that not all Muslims think this way. I understand, but we are not hearing from the moderates , they are too intimidated and content to just keep quiet . I'm sorry but the moderates are a huge part of the problem. They have to grow some and put it on the line. If they don't, this is going to get out of control. We have certainly done our part as a Country, the ball is in the moderates court. To boil it down... if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem and when you say this out comes the racists card.

No more excuses please.

Hamas is already in Mexico ( I have that on good authority ) right now they are in the beginnings of supply drugs to the Mexican gangs, hence part of the gang wars down there . This being phase one, once they have raised enough funds they will send in Mexican runners with dirty bombs . The FBI is very concerned.

 

[mediocre1]

For sure, one just has to look at our own society here in the west, white supremacists, christen fanatics etc. fanatics exist in MANY flavours!

The Taliban's code of conduct: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a  tooth. You don't find this  kind of conduct among Israel's and American's legal system.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The Taliban's code of conduct: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a  tooth. You don't find this  kind of conduct among Israel's and American's legal system.

Oh, for all the gods’ sakes! Of course you do! Old Testament, retributive justice is the very solid bed upon which our whole legal system rests.

As too “moderate Muslims” who should speak up – where are the “moderate” Christians when the fanatical, fundamentalists fringes of their coreligionists take to the airwaves and streets screaming and slobbering their intolerance? Ditto the moderate Hindus and moderate Sikhs and so on; where are they? Why is it just Muslims who must speak out against their own people?

Islam is not – or, if we want to win this war, ought not to be – our enemy. It (Islam) is in urgent need of a reformation (to separate it from its crude, medieval Arab/Persian roots) and an enlightenment, too, for large parts of the Muslim world, but we do not need to make it our enemy. We have enough real enemies without creating new, unnecessary ones.

 

[TimBit]

The Taliban's code of conduct: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a  tooth. You don't find this  kind of conduct among Israel's and American's legal system.

hem... ever heard of Death penalty? How's that for an eye for an eye & al. Mind you, it is  a post by mediocre 1.

 

[mediocre1]

Oh, for all the gods’ sakes! Of course you do! Old Testament, retributive justice is the very solid bed upon which our whole legal system rests.

As too “moderate Muslims” who should speak up – where are the “moderate” Christians when the fanatical, fundamentalists fringes of their coreligionists take to the airwaves and streets screaming and slobbering their intolerance? Ditto the moderate Hindus and moderate Sikhs and so on; where are they? Why is it just Muslims who must speak out against their own people?

Islam is not – or, if we want to win this war, ought not to be – our enemy. It (Islam) is in urgent need of a reformation (to separate it from its crude, medieval Arab/Persian roots) and an enlightenment, too, for large parts of the Muslim world, but we do not need to make it our enemy. We have enough real enemies without creating new, unnecessary ones.

If retributive justice is the very solid bed upon which our legal system rests then there should have been no mitigating, attenuating circumstances to determine the penalty for the  crime.
Our legal system rests upon a code of conduct which every law abiding citizen must carry: Do not right a wrong with another wrong.

 

[mediocre1]

hem... ever heard of Death penalty? How's that for an eye for an eye & al. Mind you, it is  a post by mediocre 1.

The death penalty is preventive. Who among us wants to die. So in able not to die, do not commit a heinous crime. Your argument then does not justify the Taliban's code of conduct.

 

[Journeyman]

The death penalty is preventive.

I believe you consider the death penalty is a "deterent"....but you're right, it definitely is "preventive" -- not many re-offenders.  ;D


My favourite comment, posted after the video has to be:

These people are crazy! He looks like he is on drugs. He keeps touching his hat and acting weird. That is scary!    It makes me so sad.

 

[logairoff]

I'm about halfway through The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright and I believe that so far it's helped me to put at least some of this video in context.  I am by no means an expert on this stuff, but I will throw this point out there to stimulate discussion. logairoff, I'm looking in your direction...

One thing that stick out in my mind:

-The notion of Takfir, or the declaring of those who consider themselves Muslims as non-believers and legitimate targets. At around 6:18 Dr Al-Nafisi declares that in the Koran Allah has dictated that Jews are the eternal enemy and anyone who would negotiate with them is therefore an infidel. I think it demonstrates that with these fanatics you are either with them or against them.  Even good Muslims can be declared takfir if they even suggest that peacefull negotiations can take place.

Am I using the term correctly? In the way that Islamic fundamentalists use it? How is Takfir described in "Western Islam"?

Takfir in arabic is committing a sin and to ikfir is to commit a sin(something along the lines of contradicting the word of the lord). As you can see commiting a sin is not taken to kindly by the religious fanatics. Most people believe that god will punish you for committing a sin. The thing that seperates these folks from normal and most average people is the fact that they believe that if you commit a sin you must be punished now. They seem to think that it is their responsibility to punish you in order to preserve the word of the lord. Whether you like it or not we see this type of fanaticism in every religion. The ones that get the headlines are the ones that shock you the most. As much as people want to make arabs/muslims out to be our enemy that is simply not the case. I would say that they are our friends in this fight against a common enemy.

Let me throw out a theory out there for people to think about. The Quran is written in arabic but as we all know there are a lot of people who are muslim and not necessarily arabic. For example India, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. The Quran is an ancient text never changed therefore it is very hard to understand even by arabs. There are arabic scholars who dedicate their whole life to studying and trying to understand the Quran. How do people who don't speak arabic understand this thing if even arabic speaking people have a hard time with it.

Here's where the problem comes in. I believe this doesn't get nearly as much focus but it should. Do a quick search on Wahabi muslims on google. These people ae a small minority when it comes to muslims and they can be found mostly in Saudia Arabia and Egypt. The one thing they have a lot of is money. Being the "good" muslims they believe they are they translate the Quran for non arabic speaking countries such as Pakistan, India, Afghanistan etc. Ofcourse, we all know that translations create problems because when you translate you have to interpret some things. The problem is that these people interpret the Quran into their beliefs of what islam is/should be or what the Quaran is saying acording to them.

I already mentioned that arabic scholars spend their whole lives studying this thing yet these people come and interpret/translate this text into different languages. The translated text is then spread to Afghanistan, India, Pakistan and so on. Now these non arabic speaking people are reading the word of the lord according to wahabis and they believe they are practicing the true islam. They don't know/care that the Quaran has already been filtered for them by these wahabi extremists. Having a lot of money the Whahabis actually hand out this translated version of the Quaran and start schools in these countries speading their form of Islam for free. You think these populations that have never had a school or a book given to them for free aren't grateful? It is unfortunate that these wahabis are protected by a king and by a lot of resources.

This is what I think is the root cause of Islamic extremisim feel free to research this theory and believe what you wish. This is just something to think about before putting the blame on all arabs/muslims.

 

[Journeyman]

The problem is that these people interpret the Quran into their beliefs of what islam is/should be or what the Quaran is saying acording to them.

At which point societal emphasis is on taqlid, "imitation"; ie - don't think about it; just act as you've been told.

The opposite, within Islamic law, is ijtihad, or "independent interpretation of the legal sources" (Qur'an and the Sunnah). Needless to say, the Imams very actively discourage ijtihad.

 

[Monsoon]

The big problem is that we hear that not all Muslims think this way. I understand, but we are not hearing from the moderates , they are too intimidated and content to just keep quiet .

Well, that's a good point - but remember just who translated and distributed the video we're discussing. MEMRI is, so far as I can tell, solely dedicated to translating and spreading the very worst of the Arab world for the west to see and shape beliefs from. No organization can get funded to translate and distribute texts of conciliatory speeches by moderate imams - and if they did we wouldn't read them. There's a bit of a selection bias at work here.

 

[JBG]

Well, that's a good point - but remember just who translated and distributed the video we're discussing. MEMRI is, so far as I can tell, solely dedicated to translating and spreading the very worst of the Arab world for the west to see and shape beliefs from. No organization can get funded to translate and distribute texts of conciliatory speeches by moderate imams - and if they did we wouldn't read them. There's a bit of a selection bias at work here.

I'm sure Saudi Arabia could find the money to fund the moderates' positions being publicized if they existed.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I'm sure Saudi Arabia could find the money to fund the moderates' positions being publicized if they existed.

If they existed?

You can, of course, now provide credible proof that moderate Muslim Imams do not exist, right?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Well, that's a good point - but remember just who translated and distributed the video we're discussing. MEMRI is, so far as I can tell, solely dedicated to translating and spreading the very worst of the Arab world for the west to see and shape beliefs from. No organization can get funded to translate and distribute texts of conciliatory speeches by moderate imams - and if they did we wouldn't read them. There's a bit of a selection bias at work here.

Yes, and for that same reason they are looking for reactions of outrage, to select as the representative examples of the Western opinion of Muslims for those without the resources to see them as extreme examples.

 

[Weinie]

  Quote from a previous poster

"If they existed?

You can, of course, now provide credible proof that moderate Muslim Imams do not exist, right?"

  The counter argument is that there are large numbers of "moderate Muslims everywhere" as many commentators would have us believe. You can of course, provide credible proof that moderate Muslims do exist.

 

[Michael OLeary]

  The counter argument is that there are large numbers of "moderate Muslims everywhere" as many commentators would have us believe. You can of course, provide credible proof that moderate Muslims do exist.

So you also believe that every Muslim is an extremist?

Well, I stand corrected. You can go back to building your bomb shelter now, I'll try not to disturb your belief structure again.

 

[Fiver]

You should be ashamed of having made such a mistake, Michael. It is, after all, well documented and known that the human mind is very simple and we all think the same. It's because of those magical barriers around each regions of the world making everyone born inside a particular region think the exact same way. It sure is a boring world without all those debates and controversies we would experience if we had more complex thoughts. Bless the Overmind!

 

[Michael OLeary]

I've always had a problem synching with the hive mind.  perhaps I don't take enough supplements for perceptual modification.

 

[Franko]

:

Locked.

Some people have their tinfoil hat on WAY too tight.

the Army.ca Staff