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[1feral1]

One of our officers is from Northern Ireland. Here he's a CAPT, a top bloke. For years when he lived in the UK, he tried to get into the British Army as an officer, but do to politics, and not 'knowing' the right connections, he could not, so after being disallusioned by his own government, he decided to migrate to Australia, where now, many years later, he has made is own family, and is well into his career as the officer that he always wanted to be. So, good on him, and others who have the 'ballz/gutz' to chase down their dreams, and make them reality. Life is just too short to sit around and only think of what you could be. In regards to this CAPT, Great Britian's loss was indeed Australia's gain.

It would be smart idea for Canada to poach/acquire quality desired personnel from other nations, for those that show promise with former service and/or desired qualities

Cheers,

Wes

 

[FastEddy]

I will not give orders to conscripts.

I'm all for landed immigrants in the military, with some bonus towards their citizenship.

Judging by your profile (or lack of it), it doesn't appear you are in any position to give orders to anyone let alone Conscripts.

Whereas the enrolment of landed Immigrants may be a possible solution to supplement the CF's recruitment quotes. If you factor in the Education, Psychical Standards, Patriotic Incentive and Security Checks, I imagine the number might not be all that impressive or significant.

And if those Standards are changed or lowered one iota to accommodate these individuals, then they should be applicable to All Canadian Citizens also.

 

[m410]

Judging by your profile (or lack of it), it doesn't appear you are in any position to give orders to anyone let alone Conscripts.

Luckily having authority in the CF isn't held up by not filling out your army.ca profile. 

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I joined the Reserves as a soldier in 1980 as a Landed Immigrant - and was commissioned before I became a citizen.  Seems to have all worked out so far....

 

[1feral1]

I will not give orders to conscripts.

I'm all for landed immigrants in the military, with some bonus towards their citizenship.

Hey M410, whats with the anti conscription issue? Soldiers are simply that, some good, while others tend to need to be proded, and those are not conscripts either. Either way in trg and operationally, ALL soldiers must make the mininum standard set. I have no problems giving direction to any trained soldier, regardless where he comes from. Reserve, regular or national service. Many conscripts have made their mark in history, and paid the price in blood like anyone else. They're not tainted as you seem to put them. Sounds like you've been watching too many movies.

I'd like to see you make your argument with some Viet Nam 'conscription' vets back in dear ole Australia (google 'Long Tan' for example), and just see how far you would get. I find your comment in bad taste, and an insult to all conscripts who fought in battles in The Great War (including those who were Canadians BTW) and beyond.

How about filling out your profile too, that would help.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[GAP]

I didn't see anybody arguing that I was subpar Marine (except my CO after a night of revelry) because I was a landed Immigrant to the US. There were far more *#ck ups and lazy sods than me, and they were all home grown.

To boot, at no time did I ever say I was wanting or intending to make the US of A my home. I was adamant that as soon as my hitch was up I was going back to Canada. Nobody had a problem with that.

 

[cameron]

Re to Fast Eddy: What makes you think that recruiting landed immigrants would mean lowering standards in terms of physical and educational aptitudes.  Do not assume that just because someone comes from the developing world that their educational standards are lower.  "Third World" countries particularly many of those in the Commonwealth have some of the best educational institutions in the world.  The University of the West Indies, which was formerly a college of the University of London, of which I am a proud graduate (BA Honours in History w/Archaeology 2003), is held in very high esteem around the world, and the quality of education it delivers is considered on par with the best British universities, the same can be said for many universities in Africa and India (the latter provides many of the medical doctors who now work in US and Canadian hospitals).  The late Sir Arthur Lewis, the first governor of the Eastern Caribbean Central (ECCB) won a Nobel Prize for Economics.  And the ECCB, of which he was an architect, was used as a model for the European Central Bank (if you think i'm exaggerating, do the research yourself, hint: check back issues of the Economist magazine from the late '80's early 90's). 

As for physical ability, the track record of West Indians, East Indians and Africans in cricket, soccer and track and field etc. speaks for itself.  Bear in mind also that many immigrants to Canada, USA and the UK have proven themselves to be just as, if not more patriotic than 'born citizens'.  Visit any British Caribbean country and you shall see monuments to the hundreds of West Indians, who despite facing racism from colonial authorities volunteered to fight in both World Wars, many of them made the ultimate sacrifice .  I've never heard anyone question the patriotism of Canada's Haitian born Governor General.  I am a very proud and patriotic West Indian, when I receive Canadian citizenship, I will be just as proud and patriotic a Canadian .  I take umbrage with those who suggest that just because one is from a developing country that one cannot meet certain standards.

 

[FastEddy]

Luckily having authority in the CF isn't held up by not filling out your army.ca profile.   

Again Sir !, I put it to you, how would you know ?.

 

[m410]

Hey M410, whats with the anti conscription issue? Soldiers are simply that, some good, while others tend to need to be proded, and those are not conscripts either. Either way in trg and operationally, ALL soldiers must make the mininum standard set. I have no problems giving direction to any trained soldier, regardless where he comes from. Reserve, regular or national service. Many conscripts have made their mark in history, and paid the price in blood like anyone else. They're not tainted as you seem to put them. Sounds like you've been watching too many movies.

I'd like to see you make your argument with some Viet Nam 'conscription' vets back in dear ole Australia (google 'Long Tan' for example), and just see how far you would get. I find your comment in bad taste, and an insult to all conscripts who fought in battles in The Great War (including those who were Canadians BTW) and beyond.

I think you've taken my few words in the wrong context.  I apologize for not being more clear.  I have no disrespect for former or current conscripts.  I have a disrespect for the system that conscripted them.  A conscript who has done honourable service to his nation has the respect I give all who serve.

Robert Heinlein put it best:

I also think there are prices too high to pay to save the United State.

Conscription is one of them. Conscription is slavery--and I don’t think that any people or nation has a right to save itself at the price of slavery for anyone--no matter what name it is called. We have had the draft for twenty years now; I think it is shameful. If a country can’t save itself through the volunteer service of its own free people, then I say: Let the damned thing go down the drain!

Read the rest of this great speech (not about conscription) at http://firearmsrights.com/rah1961.htm.

How about filling out your profile too, that would help.

All the best polemicists are anonymous.  Feel free to consider my arguments instead of my person.  If that is too much to ask, feel free to ignore me.  I won't hold it against you.

 

[FastEddy]

Re to Fast Eddy:   I take umbrage with those who suggest that just because one is from a developing country that one cannot meet certain standards.

It is obvious you have misread or misinterpreted or at least taken my statements completely out of context.

For your clarification, at no time did I suggest that all Immigrants would not meet CF's Recruitment Standards. But those that did would not necessarily be of such significant numbers to fill the quotes aimed at.

Further, I stated that if Recruitment Standards were lowered or adjusted to accommodate those that did not meet the original standards, that they also be applicable to the rest of the population.

Just in passing, of all the Esteemed and Suggested Personage, how many have or are lining up to join the CF's. And by your comments, I presume it is your intention upon receiving your Citizenship, to immediately run down to the nearest CF's Recruitment Center ?.

As for suggested reading, you might acquaint yourself with the basic or common reasons for migration or immigration.

 

[FastEddy]

All the best polemicists are anonymous.  Feel free to consider my arguments instead of my person.  If that is too much to ask, feel free to ignore me.  I won't hold it against you.

I reserve the right to reply, after I stop laughing.

I can't wait to see "Wes's" reply.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Robert Heinlein put it best:

Don't be quoting RAH without pointing out that he opined that the only way to win the franchise was to serve...

 

[1feral1]

I think you've taken my few words in the wrong context.  I apologize for not being more clear.  I have no disrespect for former or current conscripts.  I have a disrespect for the system that conscripted them.  A conscript who has done honourable service to his nation has the respect I give all who serve.

Robert Heinlein put it best:

Read the rest of this great speech (not about conscription) at http://firearmsrights.com/rah1961.htm.
All the best polemicists are anonymous.  Feel free to consider my arguments instead of my person.  If that is too much to ask, feel free to ignore me.  I won't hold it against you.

Context? You said you would not give orders to conscripts. End of story. Some, although jr in rank may even out soldier you.

Don't try wiggling out of this mate. You made your bed, now lay in it.

Wes

EDIT: What is your military experience? Please enlighten us, as although you have been politely asked to fill out your profile, its still blank.

 

[m410]

Don't be quoting RAH without pointing out that he opined that the only way to win the franchise was to serve...

Robert Heinlein put forward in Starship Troopers that citizenship (and thus voting rights) should be earned instead of granted through heredity or intelligence.  Happy?  Do I have to do this every time I quote him, or just this once?

Context? You said you would not give orders to conscripts. End of story. Some, although jr in rank may even out soldier you.

If I was assigned conscripts as subordinates I would resign.  After that all of them will out soldier me.

Don't try wiggling out of this mate. You made your bed, now lay in it.

That's it.  I'm going to my made bed.  Good night.

 

[1feral1]

Robert Heinlein put forward in Starship Troopers that citizenship (and thus voting rights) should be earned instead of granted through heredity or intelligence.  Happy?  Do I have to do this every time I quote him, or just this once?
If I was assigned conscripts as subordinates I would resign.  After that all of them will out soldier me.
That's it.  I'm going to my made bed.  Good night.

How are yo going to know they are conscripts, are you going to give them a badge denoting them such? What foolishness.

I see you don't even have enough intestinal fortitude to come to the party, and get into a debate, but judging by your GMK, I would say you have never served a day in your life.

Ya, go to bed and put your jammies on mate.

Remember its your own integrity you damage on here, and you are the only one to blame. Oh, before you turn the light out, please fill out your profile.

Wes

 

[George Wallace]

Robert Heinlein put forward in Starship Troopers that citizenship (and thus voting rights) should be earned instead of granted through heredity or intelligence.  Happy?  Do I have to do this every time I quote him, or just this once?

Actually, you seem to be waffling a lot.  Nice attempt at a comeback, but it doesn't confirm what you had stated earlier.  That or you have read another version of his books than the rest of us.  Your above statement is in agreement with our sentiments on RAH, but it is not what you stated in previous posts.

If I was assigned conscripts as subordinates I would resign.  After that all of them will out soldier me.

You really believe that?  Although I highly doubt that we will ever see Conscription again in Canada, I am of the opinion that you would best serve us by resigning now.  Your attitude towards the military and leadership seems flawed to me.  If you are willing to differentiate between conscripts and non-conscripts, what are your opinions on Race, Religion, Sex, Sexual Orientation and all the other personal characteristics of your soldiers?  It seems to me that you are going to face a multitude of problems in creating a cohesive and effective team, with the attitude that you have so far put forward.

That's it.  I'm going to my made bed.  Good night.

I doubt that sleep learning is effective, but you can give it a try.  As you continue with this argument, it would be nice to see where you are coming from.  As is, you are an inexperienced kid off the street trying to argue with seasoned soldiers, who have all been there, done that and of course got the t-shirts and scars to prove it.  You have nothing.  (I might add, that not all of their experience is tied to the CF, but includes service in Foreign militaries.)

 

[civmick]

Any country I have read about recently is moving away from mandatory service if they are moving at all.  Compulsory military service would create another legal industry which Canada needs like a hole in the head and a host of Clinton-style exemption clauses.  Instead you could let people choose serving as a reserve police officer, a coastguard serviceman, a firefighter, an Arctic Ranger etc.  In the military conscripts who opt for that option could do rear echelon taskings but not overseas - look at the fuss in the media about reservist casualties, imagine what it would be like if was a reservist conscript.  If a conscript wanted to switch to regforce or reserves during his three years fine but can't resign until the original 3 year commitment complete.

It's hard to say you should make people serve when existing conditions of reserve/regforce, particular job protection of reservists, is sorted.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

I will not give orders to conscripts.

I'm all for landed immigrants in the military, with some bonus towards their citizenship.

Well after reading this thread complete, I would suggest this.

IF you are a member of the CF, then would you not do what anyone would do?  Which is what you are told to do??

Or face the consequences? 

You know, discinplinary action, admin action and release?

Or did it change suddenly, and I don't have to do what my CoC tells me to do?

Shake your head man...

 

[FastEddy]

Any country I have read about recently is moving away from mandatory service

Would these Countries also be moving away from their Global Military commitments.

Are those Governments also increasing their Military Forces roles and commitments.

Are you saying its okay for our Volunteered Service personal to be killed and maimed, but those who would not serve their Country without being told to, should be posted to nice safe and cozy jobs.

I can reason and fathom the objections put forth by Serving or Ex Servicemen & Women on this subject , but I feel your objections are more of a personal nature and excuse why you shouldn't be required to Serve your Country, let alone die for it.

 

[m410]

Okay, I've been shouted down.  There's a saying that compares flame wars to the Special Olympics so I won't pursue this.  Thanks for the hostility!

For the record, I am currently serving, have some TI, and am in a position of modest authority.  I'm still not filling in my profile.

*pops smoke*
*reverses to cover*