Engineer Support in Light/SF Roles
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I would venture to say that the Light Sapper should be well versed in both Airborne and Airmobile ops...
Experience in the palletizing & practicing for Airdrops, Lowlevel extractions / slinged delivery...
(loadmasters and airforcetruckdrivers plane drivers)
Based on our mission to provide engineer support to the light force,
- what kit to use...
- how to use it when you don`t have all that rolling stock to bring it with you...
- does the kit we now use adapt well to these methods of delivery...
- do we have doctrine to back it up.....
We have always expected the sapper to use his ''Mk1'' Noggin and speak with conviction about what he knows best....
Old fart.... with the loss of Pioneer to the Infantry battalions, the sappers have become an expected resource - they really can`t get by without us any more..... IMHO
Experience in the palletizing & practicing for Airdrops, Lowlevel extractions / slinged delivery...
(loadmasters and airforce
Based on our mission to provide engineer support to the light force,
- what kit to use...
- how to use it when you don`t have all that rolling stock to bring it with you...
- does the kit we now use adapt well to these methods of delivery...
- do we have doctrine to back it up.....
We have always expected the sapper to use his ''Mk1'' Noggin and speak with conviction about what he knows best....
Old fart.... with the loss of Pioneer to the Infantry battalions, the sappers have become an expected resource - they really can`t get by without us any more..... IMHO
We have always expected the sapper to use his ''Mk1'' Noggin and speak with conviction about what he knows best....
I know it is expected, I'm just not sure the section member has the opportunity to practice it .. I could be wrong, I am out of the loop... I know that in the former SSF formation, engineers were often employed as very small detatcments, often just 2 or three attached to each platoon headquarters spread out over the battalion/commando . Often a cpl or spr would be the senior engineer on the ground, and would be expected to brief the higher level commander on any matter within the Egineer scope of practice.I know I found it intimidating the first time I was asked "how long to breach across this minefield?" by the OC. I was probably a one hook spr or new cpl, and hadn't had any advanced Recce courses yet, maybe my 5a. It was incredibly rewarding and obvoiusly an excellent lesson, as I still remember it, when I gave my answer, and the OC acted on my advice to the letter. The ability to work independently is key to a light engineer, be it employed as an assaulter in FIBUA, clearing DZ,LZ,or beachhead obstacles, or using the cone penetrometer to assess austere runway conditions.
I know it is expected, I'm just not sure the section member has the opportunity to practice it .. I could be wrong, I am out of the loop... I know that in the former SSF formation, engineers were often employed as very small detatcments, often just 2 or three attached to each platoon headquarters spread out over the battalion/commando . Often a cpl or spr would be the senior engineer on the ground, and would be expected to brief the higher level commander on any matter within the Egineer scope of practice.I know I found it intimidating the first time I was asked "how long to breach across this minefield?" by the OC. I was probably a one hook spr or new cpl, and hadn't had any advanced Recce courses yet, maybe my 5a. It was incredibly rewarding and obvoiusly an excellent lesson, as I still remember it, when I gave my answer, and the OC acted on my advice to the letter. The ability to work independently is key to a light engineer, be it employed as an assaulter in FIBUA, clearing DZ,LZ,or beachhead obstacles, or using the cone penetrometer to assess austere runway conditions.
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agreed
with 5 Bde, 5CER has started an exchange program whereby some of their officers are seconded to the R22R as platoon commanders. While some might consider this a waste of resources, it's forced certain infanteers ground to rethink the competence and capabilities of the Engineers.... we're not just another pretty face
How many times have you (or I) been on an Ex where the infantry come up to a theoretical minefield and we are asked for support. The moment we provide that time appreceation... was the same old story - you're taking too much time and... get outa my way
the other branches really didn't understand or respect us much .... until they really needed us.
Chimo!
with 5 Bde, 5CER has started an exchange program whereby some of their officers are seconded to the R22R as platoon commanders. While some might consider this a waste of resources, it's forced certain infanteers ground to rethink the competence and capabilities of the Engineers.... we're not just another pretty face
How many times have you (or I) been on an Ex where the infantry come up to a theoretical minefield and we are asked for support. The moment we provide that time appreceation... was the same old story - you're taking too much time and... get outa my way
the other branches really didn't understand or respect us much .... until they really needed us.Chimo!
with 5 Bde, 5CER has started an exchange program whereby some of their officers are seconded to the R22R as platoon commanders.
I think that is an amazing advancement for the trade, and shows there are some real forward thinkers in the Army who are taking the Expiditionary force concept seriously. I know you get this, but for those who don't I will reiterate my point. Light engineers will often be tasked at less than Troop sized levels. The Troop commander, in my opinion will do less war fighting with his men, and more co-ordinating efficient use of the Engineer resource. Hell, dare I say it? Maybe the new force should be more.... unified. Perhaps under a common hatbadge
? Engineer specialists embedded in a battalion, at all levels. I know this is crazy talk, but it could work. You could have an engineer attachment to various command levels, a section for each platoon, a det with Recce( that's where I'd wanna be :threat
support platoon in with Support company, and command elements at ea command level, company size+. I think this is the best way to go. The strength of a small unit lies in its people, and when you know the man you are fighting beside, you will perform better. Seconding troops piecemeal to support another unit is never as good as having your troops inside that unit.You know their habits, routines, passwords, most importantly names. When you are one of them, they will not question you when you say " you want us to do what? uhhhh.....no." Take the best things from the past, and move forward. Learn to love the sand fellas, cause the beaches are calling the Canadian Marine Corps.
I think that is an amazing advancement for the trade, and shows there are some real forward thinkers in the Army who are taking the Expiditionary force concept seriously. I know you get this, but for those who don't I will reiterate my point. Light engineers will often be tasked at less than Troop sized levels. The Troop commander, in my opinion will do less war fighting with his men, and more co-ordinating efficient use of the Engineer resource. Hell, dare I say it? Maybe the new force should be more.... unified. Perhaps under a common hatbadge
? Engineer specialists embedded in a battalion, at all levels. I know this is crazy talk, but it could work. You could have an engineer attachment to various command levels, a section for each platoon, a det with Recce( that's where I'd wanna be :threat support platoon in with Support company, and command elements at ea command level, company size+. I think this is the best way to go. The strength of a small unit lies in its people, and when you know the man you are fighting beside, you will perform better. Seconding troops piecemeal to support another unit is never as good as having your troops inside that unit.You know their habits, routines, passwords, most importantly names. When you are one of them, they will not question you when you say " you want us to do what? uhhhh.....no." Take the best things from the past, and move forward. Learn to love the sand fellas, cause the beaches are calling the Canadian Marine Corps.
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WRT 5CER officers being seconded..... even odder is that they are truly and really "anglo" interested in enhancing their bilingual skills.... good troops!
gully... what you are describing is..... more or less what those Pioneers used to be and that loss was a hard blow to most infantry units. An embeded light engineer capability that is an integral part of their organisation.... yes, they have some limited capacity.... but they are there all the time...
gully... what you are describing is..... more or less what those Pioneers used to be and that loss was a hard blow to most infantry units. An embeded light engineer capability that is an integral part of their organisation.... yes, they have some limited capacity.... but they are there all the time...
Geo, I beg to differ, yes the pioneer qualified infanteer was spread (thinly) thru the Infantry battalion, but the tools were kept in an APC dozer, as part of Battalion hq. if you weren't in pioneer platoon, you didn'tget a beard and you didn't carry c4 in your ruck. Actually they were in APC's, so no-one carried a ruck period. They mostly did sentry on the hq , and dug all the fire positions for the hq weinnies.The concept was never really used appropriately.I propose devolving the light whatever you want to call it, sapper, pioneer ,assaulter to platoon level, much the same way medics are posted into a unit.
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Gully,
Your experience with pioneers is not everyone's.... the pioneers were a Bn resource, just like the Recce, Antitank & Mortar platoons... They wore your capbadge and were around enough that faces and names were neot a problem....
What is happening now is that a Section, Troop or Sqn will be attached to an Combat Team or a battle group for the duration of a deployment... 6 months PLUS probably another 3 to 6 months as the troops shake it out together (and visit CMTC Wainright) for that final PO check... it's all a building block approach where you assemble your force from what Bde / area resources you have available.... at times it's like stealing from Peter to pay Paul but, that's how it goes right now.
Cheers!
Your experience with pioneers is not everyone's.... the pioneers were a Bn resource, just like the Recce, Antitank & Mortar platoons... They wore your capbadge and were around enough that faces and names were neot a problem....
What is happening now is that a Section, Troop or Sqn will be attached to an Combat Team or a battle group for the duration of a deployment... 6 months PLUS probably another 3 to 6 months as the troops shake it out together (and visit CMTC Wainright) for that final PO check... it's all a building block approach where you assemble your force from what Bde / area resources you have available.... at times it's like stealing from Peter to pay Paul but, that's how it goes right now.
Cheers!
geo, I have some idea how pioneers worked. We both know they no longer exist. Am I wrong in saying that pioneers were primarily employed in a mech role? The APC dozers would lead me to believe this was the case. Geo you can call the troops I'm talking about whatever you want, but in my world, they would be employed from within the ...dare I say..Commando...? I think in your comments about assembling an adhoc formation for each tasking speaks to how antiquated the traditional Engineer regiment is. It cannot support these deployments as it is, there is always a lot of "finessing" the deployed unit, tailoring it to the mission. The finished product seldom looks anything like the unit in garrison. Why can't the engineer regiment evolve into a relevant new force? It is still based on the same system of a field sqn, support sqn, adm sqn, and hq element. Where did that come from? Well, I don't know, but the only place it was ever fleshed out was in Germany, to fight another WW2. Train like you fight is a simple priciple, but running one unit at home for ease of admin, then assembling an entirely different animal every time you deploy, seems inefficient to me. Please don't fall back on the adaptability of the canadian engineer, that dogs been beat to death. right now combat engineers do everything pretty damn well, but just imagine how good a job they could do if they only concentrated on a few things.... The writing is on the wall, at least for now, that Canada will create an Seaborne, Airmobile expiditionary force. If you don't want to emulate the USMC, then check out the Royal Marines, or the Dutch.Throw in a little 75th Ranger Bn for good measure.
After posting I was browsing the forums, found a thread one level up, in the Combat Arms forum, about the "new" Marines. Worth a read geo. It's http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34021/post-260387.html#msg260387 Imagine a squad with 2 engineers embedded. A war fighting machine.
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Back on Topic,
As for Light Eng.,what learning curve did we have with Op. Apollo and Anaconda and Kenny can help here and his lesson's learnt is a start as all the Op's where light air lift even though they were close on battalion size from our end.
What kit was dropped and what was taken?
What kit did the average Sapper carry out side of his own personal kit?
We have all seen the 3 part documentary but one must admit a light Sapper would not carry the amounts of demo stores seen.So what learning curve wa learnt for Op. Anaconda?
As for Light Eng.,what learning curve did we have with Op. Apollo and Anaconda and Kenny can help here and his lesson's learnt is a start as all the Op's where light air lift even though they were close on battalion size from our end.
What kit was dropped and what was taken?
What kit did the average Sapper carry out side of his own personal kit?
We have all seen the 3 part documentary but one must admit a light Sapper would not carry the amounts of demo stores seen.So what learning curve wa learnt for Op. Anaconda?
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We had several different missions in Afghanistan in 02. I will talk about three that really emphasize Lt Ops and Engrs.
First, one very unsexy mission and the troops did a great job. This was being put in the line as part of the perimeter defence of the airfield and the base. Based on 4 Troop and some other Atts and Dets, for example a Heavy Gun Pl from 101 Abn. The Sqn was in the defence for well over a month. The main reason we were there was because 3 PPCLI was down a Rifle Coy. Regardless, the troops performed well and held their own against the infantry.
I mention this because it is not going to be all jumping out of planes and going for helicopter rides. It is frigging hard, boring and important work. The NCO did a great job of setting up a defensive routine with rest, eating, maintenance cycles etc. I would be surprised if a majority of the Americans would of realized we were engineers. Of course the Americans had to put their Engr Coy intothe line as well. This point shows the importance of being able to adapt to the infantry mind set and of having good solid leadership and drills.We were fortunate for having experienced NCOs that knew there business.
In the meantime, the "Sp Troop" for lack of better term, as they were not structured like a troop, continued with camp development, force protection type missions.
The first helo-deployed mission was Op Harpoon. We as a Sqn learned some valuable lessons. We did not take much personal kit. Most of the room was taken with picks, shovels, explosives, water, rats batteries and of course, ammo. Most rucks would have tipped the scales at about 100 lbs with some of the larger ones being much heavier. We generally had a case of C4 split around a Section with all the other parts and pieces needed to make a charge. The troops fashioned satchel charges out of 8-10 blocks of C4 and they were quite effective in blowing in most caves. We also had 2 C-9s and several C-6s.
The main lesson learned was that we did not need all the firepower. We were surrounded by the Infantry that had all we needed. We deeped six-ed the C- 6s and adopted C-8 for as many as we could get hold of. We had also borrowed a remote firing device of the Americans and it was very useful. Sort of like a tactical BERFS.
The second helo-deployment was Op Tori. This for all intents and purposes was an engineer driven operation. Unfortunately, the engineers were not included in the early planning stages. This led to some issues when we started to discuss the possibilities of using tons of explosives to accomplish the mission. They wanted us to explosively open some caves that had been preciously closed by aerial bombs. We devised a standard pallet system of explosives and all the parts and pieces. I can't remember exactly but probably close to a ton of explosive on each. We would be split into two groups with the rest of the BG, one group operating lower on th mountain and the other operating at the top of the mountain.
This is an important point. There is nothing light about Light Engineers. The explosives take up a lot of weight and space when you are talking helo ops. It must be deliberately planned and executed. Engineers must be in at all stages of the planning process and there can not be any room for inter-trade rivalry between infantry, armour, Arty and engineers, we all add to the fight. If one group is excluded it weakens the BG overall.
I feel we had many valuable lessons learned as far as Light Engr Ops but it may be soon forgotten as people age and we lose the experience people had from units like the Airborne Regiment.
First, one very unsexy mission and the troops did a great job. This was being put in the line as part of the perimeter defence of the airfield and the base. Based on 4 Troop and some other Atts and Dets, for example a Heavy Gun Pl from 101 Abn. The Sqn was in the defence for well over a month. The main reason we were there was because 3 PPCLI was down a Rifle Coy. Regardless, the troops performed well and held their own against the infantry.
I mention this because it is not going to be all jumping out of planes and going for helicopter rides. It is frigging hard, boring and important work. The NCO did a great job of setting up a defensive routine with rest, eating, maintenance cycles etc. I would be surprised if a majority of the Americans would of realized we were engineers. Of course the Americans had to put their Engr Coy intothe line as well. This point shows the importance of being able to adapt to the infantry mind set and of having good solid leadership and drills.We were fortunate for having experienced NCOs that knew there business.
In the meantime, the "Sp Troop" for lack of better term, as they were not structured like a troop, continued with camp development, force protection type missions.
The first helo-deployed mission was Op Harpoon. We as a Sqn learned some valuable lessons. We did not take much personal kit. Most of the room was taken with picks, shovels, explosives, water, rats batteries and of course, ammo. Most rucks would have tipped the scales at about 100 lbs with some of the larger ones being much heavier. We generally had a case of C4 split around a Section with all the other parts and pieces needed to make a charge. The troops fashioned satchel charges out of 8-10 blocks of C4 and they were quite effective in blowing in most caves. We also had 2 C-9s and several C-6s.
The main lesson learned was that we did not need all the firepower. We were surrounded by the Infantry that had all we needed. We deeped six-ed the C- 6s and adopted C-8 for as many as we could get hold of. We had also borrowed a remote firing device of the Americans and it was very useful. Sort of like a tactical BERFS.
The second helo-deployment was Op Tori. This for all intents and purposes was an engineer driven operation. Unfortunately, the engineers were not included in the early planning stages. This led to some issues when we started to discuss the possibilities of using tons of explosives to accomplish the mission. They wanted us to explosively open some caves that had been preciously closed by aerial bombs. We devised a standard pallet system of explosives and all the parts and pieces. I can't remember exactly but probably close to a ton of explosive on each. We would be split into two groups with the rest of the BG, one group operating lower on th mountain and the other operating at the top of the mountain.
This is an important point. There is nothing light about Light Engineers. The explosives take up a lot of weight and space when you are talking helo ops. It must be deliberately planned and executed. Engineers must be in at all stages of the planning process and there can not be any room for inter-trade rivalry between infantry, armour, Arty and engineers, we all add to the fight. If one group is excluded it weakens the BG overall.
I feel we had many valuable lessons learned as far as Light Engr Ops but it may be soon forgotten as people age and we lose the experience people had from units like the Airborne Regiment.
This sounds very familiar. I heard BGen Biere talk of Tier II and I have also heard it called Joint Action Task Force. Either or, it sounds interestingly enough like a new version of the Airbourne. Essentially, a mid-ground between us troops in the field and JTF II. Is this what you were looking for in your post? I for one think it is an outstanding idea but have a tough time finding any details on it.
In the new battlescape that we face, namely guerrila warfare, it has been proven in the last half century you cannot fight a guerrilla war with conventional means. Thus, we have JTF II, unconventional warriors, who do most of the fighting. I understand all of this but what I have trouble with is where does this new unit fit into the picture? There is a large difference in our SF and field troops and how would this new unit fit into this divide?
I am sure that these are all things that are being hammered out at the puzzle palace but I was wondering if anyone new anything more about it. Is this the Engineer support for light/SF roles that we need or can this role be casted by units like 13 (Lt) Fd Sqn?
In the new battlescape that we face, namely guerrila warfare, it has been proven in the last half century you cannot fight a guerrilla war with conventional means. Thus, we have JTF II, unconventional warriors, who do most of the fighting. I understand all of this but what I have trouble with is where does this new unit fit into the picture? There is a large difference in our SF and field troops and how would this new unit fit into this divide?
I am sure that these are all things that are being hammered out at the puzzle palace but I was wondering if anyone new anything more about it. Is this the Engineer support for light/SF roles that we need or can this role be casted by units like 13 (Lt) Fd Sqn?
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To save some time & space, I essentially agree with everything Chimo said and have a few more points to add:
1. In addition to the rucksack loads of the light engineer going to be heavy, but care must be taken to share out mission essential kit so that one man (or one man's kit) doesn't become absolutely vital to the operation. Due to a combination of meeting this requirement plus the rifle coys (to which the sects were attached) requiring engineer presence in multiple locations simultaneously, we tried to keep the sects organized so they could break into four man groups or two man fire teams and still maintain the ability to perform a minimum of engineer tasks/functions. What these tasks are may vary from one op to another. I think this an important point to consider when looking at the equipment distribution within a light squadron as they may need greater quantities of certain equipment simply because the entire sect is not grouped around the sect veh, they may be quite dispersed.
2. The importance of adequate night vision cannot be over emphasized. Every soldier must be equipped with NVGs (or equivalent) and a rifle mounted IR designator to enable targets to be engaged accurately in low light conditions.
3. Regarding courses and training, members of a light squadron must be multi-purpose and flexible so that they can deploy in any environment that their associated LIB is sent to. While there isn't a requirement (to many people dismay) for the entire squadron to have a para capability, there is certainly a requirement for at least a designated sect that supports the para coy. Ditto for the mtn coy, there must be at least a sect sized element trained and equipped to accompany them on mtn ops. Regardless of what the minimum number of pers to fill the requirement to support any specialty, there should be additional trained pers available who can backfill vacancies (pers on course, casualties, whatever). My own preference would to see enough pers trained in any given specialty qualification so that self-replicating critical mass is reached (i.e. there are enough experienced and qualified pers that courses can be run at the unit as opposed to getting the odd vacancy at the Bn).
Doug
1. In addition to the rucksack loads of the light engineer going to be heavy, but care must be taken to share out mission essential kit so that one man (or one man's kit) doesn't become absolutely vital to the operation. Due to a combination of meeting this requirement plus the rifle coys (to which the sects were attached) requiring engineer presence in multiple locations simultaneously, we tried to keep the sects organized so they could break into four man groups or two man fire teams and still maintain the ability to perform a minimum of engineer tasks/functions. What these tasks are may vary from one op to another. I think this an important point to consider when looking at the equipment distribution within a light squadron as they may need greater quantities of certain equipment simply because the entire sect is not grouped around the sect veh, they may be quite dispersed.
2. The importance of adequate night vision cannot be over emphasized. Every soldier must be equipped with NVGs (or equivalent) and a rifle mounted IR designator to enable targets to be engaged accurately in low light conditions.
3. Regarding courses and training, members of a light squadron must be multi-purpose and flexible so that they can deploy in any environment that their associated LIB is sent to. While there isn't a requirement (to many people dismay) for the entire squadron to have a para capability, there is certainly a requirement for at least a designated sect that supports the para coy. Ditto for the mtn coy, there must be at least a sect sized element trained and equipped to accompany them on mtn ops. Regardless of what the minimum number of pers to fill the requirement to support any specialty, there should be additional trained pers available who can backfill vacancies (pers on course, casualties, whatever). My own preference would to see enough pers trained in any given specialty qualification so that self-replicating critical mass is reached (i.e. there are enough experienced and qualified pers that courses can be run at the unit as opposed to getting the odd vacancy at the Bn).
Doug
Doug, and anyone else interested, A page or two back I posed the question of whether the current regimental system suited light ops, meaning that troops are often employed in non linear groupinge, ie , detachment , section + toop + or -, or what is called a squadron bur made up of a bunch of CE dets + a field troop. I'll put it back out there, should this new, now it is in the light JATF, and the new Amphibious Task Force generate a new Engineer Element, possibly embedded within and indistinguishable from a parent force, much like the black hat infanteer experiment going on currently?
wow, I wrote it , but I don't even understand it. What I am trying to ask is the traditional Engineer regiment the right unit for the modern battlefield. I will admit that I am biassed, but think that the Army needs to be more cohesive, and have dedicated support at each sub level. So if 2 platoon, 2 PPCLI goes out on patrol, they take their integral engineers with them. If 2PP is on a fighting patrol, then Battalion hq has some more engineers in the HQ element, and every sub unit has a few. This would be the case throughout each Brigade. I am sure that JATF ( Airborne!) could use some hardcore Sappers.
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Uhhh.... JATF.... they will!
got a friend who is being posted back to the country .........
give it a little while & we might have a reconstituted Parachute Regiment .... Engineer Squadron & Arty bty to go along........
All Battle groups going out these days are being loaded up with Infantry, Engineer, Recce, Arty, Sigs, etc resources to meet mission requirements.... pretty much some of everything the CMBGs have to offer.
got a friend who is being posted back to the country .........
give it a little while & we might have a reconstituted Parachute Regiment .... Engineer Squadron & Arty bty to go along........
All Battle groups going out these days are being loaded up with Infantry, Engineer, Recce, Arty, Sigs, etc resources to meet mission requirements.... pretty much some of everything the CMBGs have to offer.
