• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Electoral Reform (Senate, Commons, & Gov Gen)

What do you want to see?


  • Total voters
    194
Status
Not open for further replies.
I've come to completely oppose any form of proportional system of representation as it only serves to further entrench party politics.  I'd like to see each politician elected on his own merits.

RCA, you worry about the Senate being overtaken by political parties; don't you feel that a proportional system, which makes gives senate seats right to a party to decide on who to fill it with, will do exactly this.  Perhaps some sort of dual seat system could work.  For example, a province has 10 seats.  Each senatorial riding within the province has two seats.  The top two vote getters will get the two seats, giving you a senior and a junior senator from each riding; 5 senior and 5 junior senators go to Parliament.  I bet you about 70% of the electorate would have their voices heard if you could work something like this out.

As for an executive/legislative split, I'd say it is more in the realm of idea then Senatorial reform, which I believe is very necessary for the health of our democracy.  However, when we speak of this split do we necessarily have to draw immediate comparisons to the system the United States uses?  I know France and Germany both have systems with a President and a Prime Minister/Chancellor.  I believe in France, the President has more power, while in Germany the Chancellor seems to be the leading figure, but either way both countries have functional heads of state and government.  Could Canada function with an elected Governor General and an elected Prime Minister, each position with its own respective powers?
 
If memory serves and without checking fact, in the original US system senate members were to be elected by the respective state legislatures.  Should provincial senators be elected for two-year terms (staggered one in each year) by provincial legislatures, from nominations submitted by the public at large?

Note that the point of a short (two year) term would be to both discourage career politicians from entering senate life and encourage citizens to consider a two year hiatus in their private careers to serve in the senior legislative body of the nation.
 
If memory serves and without checking fact, in the original US system senate members were to be elected by the respective state legislatures.  Should provincial senators be elected for two-year terms (staggered one in each year) by provincial legislatures, from nominations submitted by the public at large?

I am not sure if they were appointed by state governors or elected by state legislatures.  Either way, I don't like the idea for two reasons:

1)  I am not a big fan of provincial politics all together.  I think we would be better off without wasting time and energy on Provincial governments (ie: what do they do that the Federal Government can't?)

2)  If a Canadian Senate was composed of an equal amount of senators from each province, then you wouldn't see much variation among provincial "Blocs".  For example, using 10 as our magical number; what is to stop a province with an NDP majority from sending 10 NDP senators to Parliament, whether they are appointed or elected by the provincial government.  Seems to open up the Senate to cronyism and patronage, exactly what we are trying to eliminate with Senatorial reform proposals.  I'd prefer Senators to be held directly accountable to an electorate.

Note that the point of a short (two year) term would be to both discourage career politicians from entering senate life and encourage citizens to consider a two year hiatus in their private careers to serve in the senior legislative body of the nation.

Although I can see pros and cons to both long and short terms, I would err to the longer terms.  Short terms are not necessarily going to deter the career politician (look at the US House of Representatives).  I would like to see a longer term so that officials can properly enact and follow through with their proposals.  To counter this, perhaps more accountibility through a system of recall is neccesary?  The revolving door of officials in 2 year terms would make voting seem to be more of a chore, where we could never really get to know our representative.

If I were to peg elections and terms, I would work it like this:

Elected Senate and Elected House: Senate elections on fixed date in spring; 6 year term.  House elections on fixed date in autumn; 4 year term.

Elected Senate, Elected House, and Elected Executive (G-G): Senate and House elected on fixed date in spring; 6 and 4 year terms.  G-G election on fixed date in autumn; 5 year term.



 
What I actually said was become partisan. This is the biggest problem, and  I can't think of a solution. Other then to mitigate its effects. Therefore the proportional system (I not a great fan either) would counter the "first past the post. Your MP is accountable to you, the constituent. The Senate would be accountable to something else [province (?)]. The province would pick from the slate of candidates based on the portion of the vote, so an NDP  province couldn't select 10 NDPers unless they had 100% of the vote. Or you break the province into areas, broken how ever, as long as the # of Senators are even and don't go over 10 (or 12 or 15 whatever). Example, Manitoba  - 5 from Winnipeg, 5 from the rest of MB, Ontario - 5 for Southern On, and 5 from Northern On.

You have a strong dislike for provincial governments (my guess an extra layer) but they are necessary in a country our size, because we are regional by nature. A solution that works in the Maritimes, won't necessarily work on the Paraires.
And I'm a strong federalist.

In France, the President is head of sate and the executive, while the Prime Minister is head of government. In Germany, the chancellor is head of the executive and government, and the President is head of state.

Recalls won't work because antone with an axe to grind can play that card. Witness Arnold and California. Over the years our politics has become much more polarizing with parties doing anything to stay in power. Recalls would be just another tool for them to play.

For a Head of State, all we need some one to sign the bills, accept dissolution of gov'ts (not necessary on fixed elective terms), and show the flag. Therefore this person can be appointed, and confirmed by the Senate. An elected one, probably would be preferable, but it is a non-partisan post, and do we need another election and expense that will go with it (on top of elected Senators and MPs.
 
Infanteer said:
I am not a big fan of provincial politics all together.   I think we would be better off without wasting time and energy on Provincial governments (ie: what do they do that the Federal Government can't?)
Out of curiosity Infanteer, are you from Ontario?   :blotto:

Seriously though, the provincial governments are there to prevent people in one region from being screwed over because a federal government is more interested in the other side of the country (note that unfortunately this does nothing to prevent people from being screwed over in general). Feelings of alienation (e.g. Quebec and western provinces) would go through the roof if there was only a federal level.

I'd like to address a few more things brought up by people here, but have to run. I'll get to it later.
 
>ie: what do they [provincial governments] do that the Federal Government can't?)

Except for defending and securing the nation and promoting its interests abroad, everything - if efficiency is a consideration.  If we can spare no expense, then we are free to indulge in federally crafted one-size-fits-all solutions; no community need worry, for example, about deciding between whether to employ finite financial resources to build schools or roads.

But financial resources are finite, you say?  Well, then let's devolve the decision-making power down to the lowest level: province before nation, regional district before province, municipality or community before regional district, and family before community.  That way each group can decide at its respective level of responsibility how to meet its most pressing needs instead of its peers' most pressing needs.  If my community needs a walk-in family clinic rather than a MRI clinic, we aren't likely to be well-served if big government buys us a MRI clinic.

Everyone has problems they believe they could solve if only they had enough money and power.  Unfortunately the problems are different.  So, it is best to let people solve problems at the lowest possible levels.

The number of senators need not be identical for each province.  Unless the Senate has legislative power of its own, short terms should suffice for a role as a watchdog of legislation passed by Parliament.  Even with party cronyism, I would expect the Senate to have a more interesting and useful balance of ideological representation than Parliament.
 
Yeesh, I sure opened a can of worms with this one.

Other then to mitigate its effects. Therefore the proportional system (I not a great fan either) would counter the "first past the post. Your MP is accountable to you, the constituent. The Senate would be accountable to something else [province (?)]. The province would pick from the slate of candidates based on the portion of the vote, so an NDP   province couldn't select 10 NDPers unless they had 100% of the vote.

What would happen if I wanted to run for the Senate as an Independent because I felt the NDP was to socialistic, the Liberals had too much entrenched cronyism, and the Conservatives had too many regressive skeletons in the closet?   Should I be denied my chance to represent my province in the Senate because don't want to submit myself to party politics?

Or you break the province into areas, broken how ever, as long as the # of Senators are even and don't go over 10 (or 12 or 15 whatever). Example, Manitoba   - 5 from Winnipeg, 5 from the rest of MB, Ontario - 5 for Southern On, and 5 from Northern On.

That might be necessary.   Take BC for example.   How is a senator supposed to express regional interests as defined by someone living in downtown Vancouver (multiculturalism, environmental issues) as opposed to regional issues as defined by someone in a small Northern forestry town (International trade, health of the forestry industry).   Although I would argue that this may fall upon the Member of Parliament in the House to deal with, we probably wouldn't go wrong by giving "areas of responsibility" for Senators elected from a province.

You have a strong dislike for provincial governments (my guess an extra layer) but they are necessary in a country our size, because we are regional by nature. A solution that works in the Maritimes, won't necessarily work on the Paraires.

As for doing away with provincial governments, the main line of my reasoning is that I think they are no different then the Federal government in the sense that they are macro-political identities.   My MLA, in far away Victoria, does about as good of a job as my MP, far away in Ottawa.   The fact that I need a representative to manage my political matters at two distinct levels is redundant.   I would prefer to see Canada built upon a dual system, a macro-political level where representatives work as part of the greater whole for national issues, and a micro-political level where citizens take a more direct role in determining local politics.

I'm looking at provincial roles, and I just don't see how giving them to a provincial government, with its own codes and laws, makes things more efficient or democratic.   For example:

Health Care:   Government management of Health Care has proved to be a farce, no matter what large bureaucracy manages it.   If health care was given to the local level to manage (starting with the individual citizen managing his own universal health care dollars with a Medical Service Account system), solutions could be tailored to meet local health care needs, rather than some large government bureaucracy deciding what is best.

Highways and Motor Vehicles:   Do the laws of physics change from province to province, requiring different laws and driving standards, as well as different requirements for road maintenance?

Education:   As with Health Care, does giving the responsibility to one big bureaucracy or another really affect the quality of education that a young Canadian can receive?   Do the provinces hold a monopoly on the truth that the Federal government could never exercise?   Let's face it, we need to increase the level of education for all Canadians.   All my provincially specialized education really taught me is that the Royal Engineers and Judge Begbie hung a few Natives in the mid 1800's and that White people suck for coming to Canada and oppressing the Metis pursuit for freedom....

Other trivial things: I find it absurd that an 18 year old Canadian soldier can drink in his mess in Alberta, but if is on exercise in BC, he is considered a minor.   Is important for the Province of Quebec that they avoid a "one-size-fits-all" Legal Age and go with 18, despite what the people of Ontario have across the river?   This is just an example of the many little silly discrepancies that divide the nation and exacerbate provincial differences, rather then promoting the notion of a Canadian standard.

I recognize that many of these functions may be to placate Quebec Nationalists and the like.   I would argue that the job of the Government is to ensure that we have efficient and good government, not to placate separatists and other sorts of regional chauvinism's.

Seriously though, the provincial governments are there to prevent people in one region from being screwed over because a federal government is more interested in the other side of the country (note that unfortunately this does nothing to prevent people from being screwed over in general). Feelings of alienation (e.g. Quebec and western provinces) would go through the roof if there was only a federal level.

You don't think people feel screwed by the federal government for overrepresenting certain regions right now under the current system?   We suffer from a antiquated federal system that does no effort in attempting to alleviate regional tensions and provincial governments that are too busy trying to fight for their piece of the pie to really offer any solution.   When is the last time you ever heard of Provincial and Federal governments working together?

Except for defending and securing the nation and promoting its interests abroad, everything - if efficiency is a consideration.   If we can spare no expense, then we are free to indulge in federally crafted one-size-fits-all solutions; no community need worry, for example, about deciding between whether to employ finite financial resources to build schools or roads.

I would argue that "one-size-fits-all" solutions are the only results of federally directed programs.   Perhaps we may need to tweek things to ensure that they run well, but I think the principle can work.   Take policing for example.   Rather then have a hodge-podge of different provincial and municipal police forces, with varying levels of capabilities and resources, why don't we better organize the RCMP to operate with the regional or municipal governments (which seems to be a big complaint these days), ensuring that local needs are just as prominant as national directives.

But financial resources are finite, you say?   Well, then let's devolve the decision-making power down to the lowest level: province before nation, regional district before province, municipality or community before regional district, and family before community.   That way each group can decide at its respective level of responsibility how to meet its most pressing needs instead of its peers' most pressing needs.   If my community needs a walk-in family clinic rather than a MRI clinic, we aren't likely to be well-served if big government buys us a MRI clinic.

I totally agree.   Let the micro-political level handle the requisite issues, sending large scale stuff up to the macro level.   Why have two jurisdictions to fight over who gets what part of the macro-political pie, only increasing the level of duplication and redundancy?

Everyone has problems they believe they could solve if only they had enough money and power.   Unfortunately the problems are different.   So, it is best to let people solve problems at the lowest possible levels.

My bottom line is that provincial governments are no better then the Federal governments at delivering services.   Either one just gobbles up public funds in the massive bureaucracies they span.   I'd rather have 1 massive bureaucracy in Canada then the current 11.   If effective regional representation could be found in the federal government (a Triple E Senate seems to be one method of moving towards this goal) I just don't see how keeping a provincial government with a hundred or so politicians and a couple tens of thousand additional bureaucrats would be necessary.

The number of senators need not be identical for each province.   Unless the Senate has legislative power of its own, short terms should suffice for a role as a watchdog of legislation passed by Parliament.   Even with party cronyism, I would expect the Senate to have a more interesting and useful balance of ideological representation than Parliament.

Back to the topic of senators, I would demand that each province be given an equal number of Senate seats.   If we don't, we are in danger of lapsing the Upper House back towards a representative of population-based constituencies (ie: like the House of Commons), rather then a representative of regional issues.   Sadly this is how it is today; how can a province such as Nova Scotia or British Columbia expect any effective regional representation when Ontario and Quebec possess over 50% of the Commons seats and a little under 50% of the Senate seats?


----


Well, anyways, it's getting late and I'm starting to ramble on.
Hopefully some of this will get filtered out into a more coherent set of ideas in the ensuing scrum.

Cheers,
Infanteer
 
You are not missing the boat on anything Hoser.

The G-G has real powers.  The only thing constraining the G-G is that in a P*ssing contest with the PM she would lose because he can always say "I have the support of my cabinet and/or my caucus and/or my party and/or the House of Commons and/or my constituents".  The one thing he can never actually claim is the support of the people of Canada because they never vote for him/her directly.  The G-G has no such backing.  If she were elected (by anybody - general vote, provincial legislatures, premiers, the Privy Council) then she could challenge the PM on decisions.

Welcome to the US.

Personally I like the notion of a one-term G-G (about 7 years) so that they are not tempted to run for re-election.  Also I like the notion of the G-G essentially being an arbiter deciding if the government should fall or if the opposition should be given a chance to govern.  She shouldn't be involved in executive decisions, I like the PM for that job.

However, the G-G as figurehead for the country, the Commander in Chief, head of the Civil Service and the Privy Council, I like that notion.  Something that attempts to set those agencies outside of Party Politics.

I also like the notion of a Provincial/Regional Senate for I believe, like many on this board apparently, and like Tip O'Neill that "All politics are local".  Or put another way my loyalties run outward, from my family, through my friends and communities to the world at large.  The farther you get away from me and mine the less claim you have to my charity.

As to representation in the Senate, I think that equal weighting for the provinces and territories is possible.  The Council of the Provinces? set up by the premiers gives one premier one vote.  All provinces and territories equal. The have thus already recognized the inherent equality of province. The council is effective - the premiers have powers - and the council is elected - all the premiers are elected.

A triple E council.  A model for the senate.

Keep the commons the way it is, although single vote transferrable might be better than first past the post.  You are still electing an individual to represent you and your rights, not a party.

Cheers.
 
>How is a senator supposed to express regional interests

The question is: whose interests should the senators serve and represent?  If elected by the people at large, they are simply another form of parliament with a slightly different balance of power (in my view only marginally useful).  If appointed by the PM or Parliament, they evolve to serve Parliament (an unnecessary function).  If appointed or elected by provincial legislatures, they serve provincial governments.

Having the senators serve the provincial governments as a check above Parliament suits my view.

The idea that all-powerful federal government should exist to set equal standards everywhere is seductive to people who believe their ideas are sensible and would, or should, be embraced by everyone else.  That is quite a conceit, isn't it?  I certainly do not believe that what I would like is what everyone else would like, or should have imposed upon them.  That is why I prefer a system under which people can - if they wish - agree collectively on different standards in different parts of the country, different communities, etc.  Rather than worry about what a majority might impose on a minority, I would severely restrict the power of the majority to impose in the first place.  That eastern Canadians can impose their social views on western Canadians, or that urban Canadians can impose their social views on rural Canadians merely contributes to alienation and frustration.  It is possible, and I think for the long-term political and social stability of a country necessary, to elect governments democratically while restricting the scope of power of governments.
 
I'd be agreeing with you Brad.  I like the idea of Senators as creatures of the provinces and in particular the legislatures.  Having terms that outlast the legislatures would, I think, tend to mellow out some of the more partisan aspects.
 
The question is: whose interests should the senators serve and represent?   If elected by the people at large, they are simply another form of parliament with a slightly different balance of power (in my view only marginally useful).   If appointed by the PM or Parliament, they evolve to serve Parliament (an unnecessary function).   If appointed or elected by provincial legislatures, they serve provincial governments.

This is an issue that we can see-saw over.   I just happen to feel that the provincial governments don't properly represent the issues of their provincial constituants enough; they are at too large of a level to be effective.   Can you say that you've been pleased with the performance of your government living in BC in the last 12 or so years?   I'd prefer to be able to have a direct say in who I send to a Senate seat, rather then letting a politician perform another duty for me.

Yes, an elected senate is simply another "form of Parliament" in that it is representatives elected by constituents.   However, I think the fundamental issue is that a properly balanced Senate serves as a check-and-balance to the population based Commons.   If structured properly, it shouldn't allow politicians on the 401   beltway to gang up and dictate terms to the other provinces.

Hmm...I'm going back to the Federalist Papers....

(As an aside, Brad; would you happen to know why the US abandoned the state appointment of Senators?   Perhaps that event can inject a new viewpoint into the discussion; I'll look it up.)

The idea that all-powerful federal government should exist to set equal standards everywhere is seductive to people who believe their ideas are sensible and would, or should, be embraced by everyone else.   That is quite a conceit, isn't it?

I think the idea is just as good as one of a split in powers between an all powerful federal government and all powerful provincial governments should exist to bicker over the resources of the state.   As I stated before, the existence of only two levels of government does not automatically require that all government policies be "cookie-cutter" in nature (ie; regional bureaucracies should be given the ability to modify policies within the government mandated parameters).

Rather than worry about what a majority might impose on a minority, I would severely restrict the power of the majority to impose in the first place.   That eastern Canadians can impose their social views on western Canadians, or that urban Canadians can impose their social views on rural Canadians merely contributes to alienation and frustration.   It is possible, and I think for the long-term political and social stability of a country necessary, to elect governments democratically while restricting the scope of power of governments.

I refuse to cut Canada up into "Maritime Socialists" and "Toronto Urbanites", and "Western Farmers".   As I said earlier, I believe the province is still to large to present a significantly different level of government then the federal on in Ottawa.   A person in Thunder Bay probably has more in common with some from Brandon rather then someone in metro Toronto; even more extreme; some downtown Vancouverite probably has more in common with a fellow urbanizte in Seattle then with a logger in Northern BC or a fisherman in Newfoundland.

I refuse to cut Canada up into "Maritime Socialists" and "Toronto Urbanites", and "Western Farmers".  As I said earlier, I believe the province is still to large to present a significantly different level of government then the federal on in Ottawa.  A citizen in Thunder Bay probably has more in common with some from Brandon rather then someone in metro Toronto; even more extreme; some downtown Vancouverite probably has more in common with a fellow urbanite in Seattle then with a forestry worker in Northern BC or a fisherman in Newfoundland.

I'd rather not see Canada broken up into a patchwork of socio-political experiments; this is why I oppose the "third level" of Native self government as well, but that's another issue.  If I, as a Canadian, happen to lean to either socialist or free market tendencies, I shouldn't have to move to an area of Canada to fit with my ideology.  I'd prefer a more vigerous democracy that engages as many Canadians as possible, commited to compromise and determining the best solution for Canadian's as a whole.
 
Infanteer said:
    I might say I am a little more inclined towards having a "US Style" system of civilian appointment followed by Parliamentary confirmation.   You could avoid conflict of interest issues in that a MP happens to be at both times a representative of his riding and of his Ministry.   If I am a citizen of riding X, I want my minister to focus on the local issues and dealing with pertinent legislation, not trying to manage the budget and deal with the nightmare bureaucracy that is the Department of National Defence.  
What about a system in which the executive was chiefly in the Senate?  People could elect an MP to represent their riding in the commons, while they could elect to Senate the people they want to see in the executive (and as the check/balance to the commons).  I think I would prefer the current location of the executive, but this is an alternative that keeps it with elected officials.

On the issue of provincially appointed senators, I agree with Infanteer.  A province with a majority government could see its legislature stack the Senate with members of the dominate party.  Better to let the people decide.
 
What about a system in which the executive was chiefly in the Senate?  People could elect an MP to represent their riding in the commons, while they could elect to Senate the people they want to see in the executive (and as the check/balance to the commons).  I think I would prefer the current location of the executive, but this is an alternative that keeps it with elected officials.

Interesting idea McG.  A Prime Minister is selected to lead the House of Commons while a Governor General is selected to lead the Senate.  Perhaps powers would be split between the two, with one acting as a check and balance to the other.  It would be a binary system; akin to the dual consulship of the Roman Republic.  Maybe it can be a senior/junior relationship; something akin to the relationship between a CO and his DCO or a Platoon Commander to his Warrant (ie: clear boundries of control and support).
 
A search for information about the US 17th Amendment may find articles which discuss why US Senate elections changed to a popular vote.  Some of the pros and cons may not be as valid in the information age as they were when the amendment passed.

If a province is too large for disparate interests to be adequately represented by a provincial government, I fail to see how a federal government could do better and can not reasonably accept that it can even be "just as good as" provincial government.  All it means is the provincial governments should in turn devolve power to regional districts and municipalities.  To move power and authority to continually higher levels of government responsible for every-increasing masses of land and people is merely a recipe for inertia, waste, and dissatisfaction among those forced to "compromise" (ie. cede their rights to others).  People will naturally find their own cultural divisions regardless whether you care to partition and name them or not.  The issue is whether cultural differences should be respected.

On compromise and best solution as a whole: these are not the same.  Communism represents the gold standard of compromise, but I do not consider it the best solution for the structure of an economy.  To seek compromise may result in a total measure of achievement which is less than that obtained if people are freer to pursue different objectives in different regions.  The "best solution on the whole" may be to allow provinces and communities more freedom to chart their own courses.

If we don't conduct "socio-political experiments", or rather permit governments the freedom to pursue them, how can we learn what the best solutions are?  Publicly funded and delivered health care is endlessly advertised as the best solution for Canadians as a whole.  Is that true, or is it merely an article of ideological faith?  What information exists to prove conclusively that we could not have more access and greater quality under something less than complete public ownership?
 
If a province is too large for disparate interests to be adequately represented by a provincial government, I fail to see how a federal government could do better and can not reasonably accept that it can even be "just as good as" provincial government.  All it means is the provincial governments should in turn devolve power to regional districts and municipalities.  To move power and authority to continually higher levels of government responsible for every-increasing masses of land and people is merely a recipe for inertia, waste, and dissatisfaction among those forced to "compromise" (ie. cede their rights to others).  People will naturally find their own cultural divisions regardless whether you care to partition and name them or not.  The issue is whether cultural differences should be respected.

I think we are both arguing for the same endstate (ie: devolution of power), we only disagree on the delivery (ie: should local authority flow from a strong national government or a strong provincial government).  We could probably exhaust ourselves running in circles with this issue.

On compromise and best solution as a whole: these are not the same.  Communism represents the gold standard of compromise, but I do not consider it the best solution for the structure of an economy.  To seek compromise may result in a total measure of achievement which is less than that obtained if people are freer to pursue different objectives in different regions.

Don't you think that some measure of compromise is required to sustain a viable democracy?  In Athens, where every citizen was a landowning male Athenian, the lack of diversity allowed for less divisiveness amongst the citizens (although a good portion of intrigue still existed)  Regardless of regional location, the diverse nature of the average Canadian's ethnic and socio-economic background is bound to lead to many opinions, requiring a level of compromise within the public sphere.

The "best solution on the whole" may be to allow provinces and communities more freedom to chart their own courses.

What is the point of having a federal government in Canada at all then?  If we are going to give most decision making capabilities to provincial governments, should we not just break things up into 13 independent states, leaving extra-provincial matters to ad-hoc arrangements between provinces as they see fit.

If we don't conduct "socio-political experiments", or rather permit governments the freedom to pursue them, how can we learn what the best solutions are?  Publicly funded and delivered health care is endlessly advertised as the best solution for Canadians as a whole.  Is that true, or is it merely an article of ideological faith?  What information exists to prove conclusively that we could not have more access and greater quality under something less than complete public ownership?

I would argue that this is a matter of raising the level of understanding and participation of the average Canadian citizen.  Anyone who's looked into the issue at all understands that the current system is fraught with problems.  Even the most ardent socialist cannot deny waiting lists and scarcity of medical resources and technology that is increasing in cost.  If more Canadians bothered to look at their health care system and understand how it works, I think you would see a greater debate in the public sphere.

My guess is the answer to the question lies in a stronger grounding in civics and responsibility rather then a matter of dealing with federal-provincial relations.  Time to send the kids to Mr Dubois' "Moral and Political Philosophy" class.... :)
 
Infanteer said:
The "best solution on the whole" may be to allow provinces and communities more freedom to chart their own courses.

What is the point of having a federal government in Canada at all then?  If we are going to give most decision making capabilities to provincial governments, should we not just break things up into 13 independent states, leaving extra-provincial matters to ad-hoc arrangements between provinces as they see fit.
Because as a federation we have a stronger international voice.  As a federation we can afford the tiny military that we do have.  The country has a larger (& more open) economy than would exist if it were 10 smaller countries.
 
>requiring a level of compromise within the public sphere.

Yes; the question is how large the sphere should be on any issue.

>What is the point of having a federal government in Canada at all then?

For some people (apparently not very many in Canada any more), the point is to defend the essential interests of the nation among other nations and guarantee the essential liberties of people ("negative" rights) so that they can pursue their own lives.  For other people, the point is to ensure all Canadians are the same and to arbitrarily pursue social outcomes ("positive" rights), which in turn necessitates erosion of essential liberties (aka "compromise").  The worship of sameness is not, contrary to recent portrayals, a Canadian value - it defies the whole spirit of "confederation", "two founding nations", etc.  Who is qualified to decide what is best for others?  Who has an inherent right to impose their view of what is best upon others?

A confederation of provinces (sound familiar?) with nearly all of the authority residing with the provinces would suit me fine. Why does federal government have to be big government, or bigger than provincial government?

Simply increasing Canadians' awareness of political process and specific policies will not yield best outcomes.  Different approaches to problems must be tried.  This is impossible unless the power to impose policy is removed from higher levels of government.
 
>Because as a federation we have a stronger international voice.  As a federation we can afford the tiny military that we do have.  The country has a larger (& more open) economy than would exist if it were 10 smaller countries.

Then surely we would be better off joined to the United States.  We would share in the benefits of a more powerful shared military, a larger economy, and a stronger international voice.

If you have reasons to believe Canada should remain distinct, then you should be able to defend distinctiveness with those reasons; and if you do, you must either:

1) Accept that there is no reason that distinction should not be extended to interprovincial relations and provincial powers within a federated government of limited authority;

2) Demonstrate why that distinction should be reserved for the 49th Parallel; or

3) Admit that your line of reasoning is intellectually inconsistent.
 
Brad Sallows said:
Then surely we would be better off joined to the United States.   We would share in the benefits of a more powerful shared military, a larger economy, and a stronger international voice.

If you have reasons to believe Canada should remain distinct, then you should be able to defend distinctiveness with those reasons;
I was not defending Canada being distinct.   I was arguing against dissolution (Infanteer asked why not rip the country appart, he did not ask why not merge with the US).  In that respect, my line of reasoning  is not intellectually inconsistent.  It just never attempted to address the issues you later raised.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top