Duceppe threatens to topple Harper government over Afghanistan

[charlesm]

Link    http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=1ca5e03a-02ef-489b-835f-b862b3e0b428&k=57083

Montreal Gazette
Published: Monday, December 11, 2006
QUEBEC — Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe said Monday his party is prepared to defeat the Harper government on a confidence motion over Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

Duceppe called on the Harper government to ìmodify profoundly the orientation of the Canadian mission in Afghanistan.

"We will not hesitate to withdraw our support," Duceppe told a Quebec City Chamber of Commerce audience.

Duceppe said the Bloc objects to the transformation of the mission from reconstruction to combat, saying he doesn't want "the sacrifice of human lives without any result."

 

[career_radio-checker]

saying he doesn't want "the sacrifice of human lives without any result."

I can agree with Mr. Duceppe here. Him and Laton have had extensive experience knowledge in this area, being part of the many research counsels that have spent many hours mulling over this mission and its expense... oops sorry they aren't part of any committee. Well ok Layton's Defence critic, Dawn Black, is part of the Defence council -- the body setting the mandate for the Afghan mission -- and they have extensive first hand knowledge what with their many trips to Afghanistan... Oh wait, that's right! They haven't been over there once. Well ok, Duceppe and Layton are both major party leaders and surely have taken advantage of the Parliamentary program with DND which allows MPs to spend time with the troops. I mean if anyone it should be the leaders who... Oh that's right, neither of them have ever stepped foot in Afghanistan. Ok I'm no Subject Matter Expert on this issue so I will shut up now. Hopefully Duceppe will realize the same.

 

[Rodahn]

Ok I'm no Subject Matter Expert on this issue so I will shut up now. Hopefully Duceppe will realize the same.

I hope your not holding your breath......

 

[Brad Sallows]

Someone tell Duceppe to go ahead and pull the trigger.  You'd think with a minority government the Bloc (or for that matter, NDP) would have used their limited opportunities to set the parliamentary agenda to pull together a non-CPC coalition to pass the sort of child care or environmental legislation they keep bleating about as national platforms (assuming the LPC would allow this to happen without the "Liberal Canadian Values" brand stamped firmly all over it), but instead the most important thing they could think of to do with their time is to try to push through their sorry piece of anti-scab legislation for the n'th instance.  Why tolerate this abortion of a minority parliament in which you have to think of things to do other than whine in opposition, when you long deeply to once again be ineffectual mice rising up on your hind legs to squeak at a Liberal majority doing only what it pleases on the government benches?

 

[Navy_Blue]

Do the block and NDP have the power to pull this off without the liberals??  I thought the Block only had 51 and the NDP around 29??  They still need some red to topple the Conservatives right???  Duceppe is just upset that Harper pulled off the whole nation thing

 

[warspite]

  Duceppe is just upset that Harper pulled off the whole nation thing

Bingo... we have a winner ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I really hope he does......and soon. It's time for a Tory majority.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I see on CBC's website tonight that the Liberals were adopting a "wait and see" attitude, but that (not surprisingly) Taliban Jack was willing to leap in to support the motion wholeheartedly.

Frankly, it is now beyond my comprehension what these idiots want and how they propose to alter the mission.  Do they seriously suggest that reconstruction can take place without adequate security?  What are their proposals (aside from the asinine "proposal" of Dion's for a "Marshall Plan" - disregarding the fact that one already exists)?  Are we to withdraw to the north and join the cringing Europeans, who are too paralyzed by fear of their own electorates to venture anywhere dangerous?  Are we to send in CIDA with a bag full of cash?  Which NGOs are we to fund to venture into the front lines?

What utter tripe our political leadership spouts on Afghanistan.  "Reorient the mission"...nice plan - it will survive contact for about three minutes once the Taliban start bombing our feel-good, happy glad "projects".

All this takes is a whipped vote by Dion, Duceppe and Taliban Jack, and we'll join the Germans, French and Italians in the ranks of the weasel nations.  But that, of course, is the entire objective...  :

 

[CrazyCanuck]

Why does the Bloc even care? or more importantly why are they allowed to care? They are a party that represents a single Province, there support on the national scene is less than 15% They do not represent even a slim minority of the overall Canadian population, they should have no right to bring down governments or voice their opionions on solely Canadian affairs.
But then again when power is unequally spread within a country this is what you get. (BC and Alberta combined have more people than Quebec but Quebec has more seats than the two of them or something like that)

 

[a_majoor]

A veiw from the blogosphere:

http://chuckercanuck.blogspot.com/2006/12/all-we-are-saying-is-give.html

All we are saying is give reconstruction a chance

Gilles Duceppe announced today the Bloc's intention to introduce a motion of non-confidence in the government over Afghanistan. The NDP will surely support the motion, as it wants the troops home in time for Valentine's day. The Liberals will surely support the motion, since their new leader wants our troops to perform the club-med like duties that Germany and France have nobly taken up in Afghanistan. Unless there is a revolt from within the Liberal caucus, it seems a winter election is unavoidable.

The opposition wants to see more reconstruction and less combat. In Kandahar province, more highway has been built in the past few years than has been built in Quebec in decades. But that doesn't count. Across Afghanistan, girls are going to school and boys are learning math, not the quickest way to load an AK-47. That doesn't count. In fact, let's not be fooled:

There will never be enough reconstruction to satisfy the opposition. We could build Picadilly Circus in the heart of Kandahar, a Hyundai dealership on every block and the most efficient carbon trading market in the world and they will still clammer for more reconstruction. Because reconstruction is code-word for retreat; we cannot reconstruct while sniped, mortared and road-side bombed. They know that. They know too, that the Taliban, seeing Canadian forces digging wells and irrigation channels won't tear up and say, "gosh, those Canadians. We had them all wrong." So, if they are offering a false solution, its because its not the real solution they have in mind. Cut and run, indeed.

So what has made Gilles Duceppe jumpy about Afghanistan? Why the sudden urge to topple the government over Afghanistan? My google skills aren't the best - so I came up short in trying to find a policy-based reason for the change of heart.

The only thing I could come up with is that the Liberals have a new leader and Gilles feels squeezed and rushed to secure his seats for another 18 months. The longer he waits, the more Quebec's federal politics will become monopolized by, er, federalists. Maybe Gilles figures Quebec will go into a provincial election this spring, and he'd better secure his seat fast, because Andre Boisclair is going to smear all separatists with a big ol' incompetent-crack-cocaine-gay-sex-but-not-with-Harper&Bush brush. Or, maybe, this non-confidence threat is just that, a cheap threat to get a headline after a season in the shadows.

Pick your favorite reasoning, they all come to the same conclusion: Afghanistan matters to Gilles only as far as a half dozen seats in urban Montreal.

 

[CrazyCanuck]

Well now I Know why they care

 

[career_radio-checker]

But then again when power is unequally spread within a country this is what you get. (BC and Alberta combined have more people than Quebec but Quebec has more seats than the two of them or something like that)

BC+Alberta = 64 seats
Quebec = 75 seats
You have to remember that the House of commons has a max capacity of about 311 seats (308 now)

 

[CrazyCanuck]

Would Quebec and Ontario start screaming bloody murder if we shuffled the seats around to give BC and Alberta more? (It's retorichal I know)

 

[career_radio-checker]

Would Quebec and Ontario start screaming bloody murder if we shuffled the seats around to give BC and Alberta more? (It's retorichal I know)

Would the Quebec and Ontario populace scream bloody murder? No. But the politicians representing them would. Quebec politicians more so because that would affect their power base in the House of Commons. And besides, they're a nation now. They have to have more equal representation than others  :

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Are we to send in CIDA with a bag full of cash?

I think that's the general idea.

I have a (markedly cynical, overly generalized) hypothesis to explain how people approach charity.  On one hand there are people who want to know what sort of difference they are making, and on the other the people who are satisfied simply to know that money is going somewhere and don't particularly care - or, as Living Colour put it in "Go Away" (lyrics from a web site; errors - if any - not my own):

"I see the starving Africans on TV
I feel it has nothing to do with me
I sent my twenty dollars to Liveaid
I've aided my guilty conscience to go away"

For some people, it is just about the bag of cash - they don't want to hear about delivery problems, corruption, unreasonably high overhead costs, or project failure weeks or months or years down the road.  They just want to be able to say what caring people they are for giving (and helping you to give, too).

 

[kilekaldar]

Bloc issues ultimatum on Afghan mission
Duceppe says he'll try to topple Tories unless focus of troops shifts to rebuilding
RHÉAL SÉGUIN and DANIEL LEBLANC AND GLORIA GALLOWAY

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061212.wafghan12/BNStory/National/home

QUEBEC AND OTTAWA — Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe is ready to trigger the defeat of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's minority government if Canada's role in Afghanistan does not change soon.

Mr. Duceppe wants the mission to concentrate on reconstruction, noting it is now “essentially military.” If the change in emphasis doesn't take place soon, he will consider introducing a no-confidence motion in the House of Commons to topple the government.

To succeed, the Bloc would need the support of both the NDP and the Liberals. The three opposition parties have 182 votes in the Commons, compared with the Conservatives' 124.

The NDP's Jack Layton supports the removal of Canada's troops as soon as possible, while Stéphane Dion, the new leader of the Liberals, said he was watching the issue closely. While he would not withdraw troops overnight, Mr. Dion has said he would consider a staged pullout if progress is not made.

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This is the first time the Bloc has hinted it is laying the groundwork for a no-confidence motion since the separatists worked to bring down the Liberals last November over the sponsorship scandal.

While the Bloc Leader refused to say when he would table such a motion, he did not exclude forcing a vote as early as February. Soldiers from the Royal 22nd regiment from Valcartier, Que., will be sent to Afghanistan next August.

“Everything is possible ... I'm not excluding anything. We will judge,” he said.

Canada risks getting in deeper and deeper, sacrificing the lives of its soldiers without producing any concrete results, he argued.

“Mr. Harper will need to rapidly and profoundly change the Canadian mission in Afghanistan, which in a few months will be made up of men and women from Valcartier. We will not be accomplices of an obtuse government who would stubbornly maintain the current course,” he said.

Mr. Duceppe made the remarks in a speech to the chamber of commerce.

“If Mr. Harper refuses to make changes and remains incapable of getting better co-operation from our allies, we will not hesitate to withdraw our support and if we have to, defeat his government on the Afghan issue.”

Once again, the Bloc is working to distance itself from the party in power on a key issue for Quebeckers. Mr. Duceppe's threat to bring down the government comes almost one year since Mr. Harper made a breakthrough campaign speech in Quebec City last Dec. 19.

Mr. Harper and his Conservatives went on to win 10 seats in Quebec, including seven in the immediate Quebec City region, with the promise of a more open federalism and a solution to the fiscal imbalance between Ottawa and the provinces.

The Bloc has been waging a fight ever since to reclaim its old ridings in the provincial capital, culminating with Mr. Duceppe's speech yesterday.

The Bloc initially supported the deployment of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. Last May, the party voted against extending the mission until 2009. Mr. Duceppe said Mr. Harper has no mandate to go beyond that period and must begin preparing now for the eventual withdrawal of troops.

Afghanistan isn't the only issue on which the Bloc would like to make life difficult for the Tories. If Mr. Harper fails to eliminate the fiscal imbalance in the next federal budget by giving Quebec $3.9-billion a year in additional funding or if he maintains his refusal to comply with the Kyoto Protocol to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, the Bloc will seek to defeat the government on these issues as well.

The Conservative Party fought back by accusing the Bloc of impotence on the federal stage.

“Given the Bloc's lack of a list of accomplishments over the last 13 years here in Ottawa, our government has delivered on key campaign commitments,” said Dimitri Soudas, a spokesman for Mr. Harper. “They could be in Ottawa for another 113 years and still be unable to deliver a single thing to Quebec.”

International Co-operation Minister Josée Verner, who is also the lead minister in Quebec City, said Mr. Duceppe should pay more attention to the Canadian Forces members in Valcartier.

“I'm told that Mr. Duceppe is regularly in Quebec City. I invite him to meet the people at the base, which he hasn't done,” she said.

Ms. Verner rejected the accusation that the Conservatives are inactive and are sending Transport Minister Lawrence Cannon to drive home the point in his own speech in Quebec City at the end of the week.

Mr. Layton said his party has long opposed the mission in Afghanistan, and would gladly vote against it one more time.

“We have never had confidence in Mr. Harper's approach to this foreign policy matter. We have said so and we have voted accordingly and it would not be a surprise to Canadians to have us continue on that path,” Mr. Layton said.

Mr. Dion is also calling for a refocusing of the mission, which he said is facing “enormous problems.” He refused to state how he would vote on a no-confidence motion in relation to Afghanistan, but he insisted the government was wrong to prolong its commitment until 2009.

“It was completely irresponsible for [Mr. Harper to do so] and now we are in the trouble that we know,” Mr. Dion told reporters.

Mr. Duceppe's comments came on the same day that Kim Howells, British Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, urged Canada to “stay the course” in Afghanistan.

After his address, Mr. Howells was asked what he felt about Mr. Dion's assertion that Canada could withdraw from the region “with honour” before 2009.

“I am not sure what withdrawing with honour would mean from Afghanistan, quite frankly,” Mr. Howells said.

“I think it's a very honourable endeavour to try and help the democratically elected government of Afghanistan fight the tyrannical body, a very cruel Taliban, and it seems to me the most honourable course would be to see that fight through.”

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I guess that highway being built in front of me is my imagination.  Geez if it were I'd have it done by now.

 

[KevinB]

To my mind most of these politicians (Dawn Black from the CCP NDP, et. al. and now specifically the Bloc) are utterly ignorant of the situation and circumstances in Afghanistan.  99% of them have no experience in Afghanistan and are pulling this stuff out of the posterior.

I have not seen anyone rallying to get the NGO's sitting in Kabul (and partying at L'atmosphere) out down to the areas where they are needed.  I could rant on and on about this - but other than army.ca readers I dont think the Canadian public gets it.

 

[career_radio-checker]

I have not seen anyone rallying to get the NGO's sitting in Kabul (and partying at L'atmosphere) out down to the areas where they are needed.  I could rant on and on about this - but other than army.ca readers I dont think the Canadian public gets it.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/feedback/index.html?Second%20part%20of%20Arar%20report%20to%20focus%20on%20RCMP

Forget the fact it mentions Arar, I want to draw your attention to the three bubbles on the right which say:

o   Comment on an issue, news story or feature
o   Suggest a story idea
o   Tell us your story

We as CF members can't do this but someone from outside can.

 

[KevinB]

Thanks