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geo said:
Sir,
Thanks for that information. The people I speak of are well known their respective CoC and have been disciplined before, it just continues to be a problem and thats all I'm speaking of.
Sir,
Thanks for that information. The people I speak of are well known their respective CoC and have been disciplined before, it just continues to be a problem and thats all I'm speaking of.
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That was not my point, obviously users affect those around them, but NOT to the extent that pushers do, when I said they only pollute themselves I was refering to the chemicals they pollute themselves with not the general bad karma they tend to rub off on everyone around them.
Drug users are bad, and pushers are worse because while the drug user puts the chemicals into themself the pusher wants to put the chemicals into others and are members of organized crime bent on spreading it's filth among as many people as possible.
I don't think I can be any clearer... drugs are bad m'kay!
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...and this topic is about as stupid as the hundreds of other pages we have on the subject.
Locked, with the usual restrictions.
Locked, with the usual restrictions.
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Good day to all,
I'm a new member here, and I must say I like it. There is a lot of good advice on these posts. For the new people coming in the Military, welcome and enjoy the ride.
I felt like talking about something a little more touchy. If you think it's too much, feel free to delete this post or simply don't read it for those how will be offended.
The Military is now stuck with the problem of needing more troops in a very competitive world where many interesting jobs are available. So lets face it, they ad to lower their recruiting standards. This open the door to drug problems. (Keep in mind that all that is written here is my own and personnel opinion.) It seems the Forces don't know how to deal with this. They are stuck between legal issues, moral issues and operation requirements (amount of people in the Forces). They have problems keeping them from entering the Forces, and when they are identified, it takes a long time for Ottawa to kick them out.
So, I would like to start an open discussion to see if anyone else feels the same way I do and to see if we could do something about this.
this is navy-nesop, over.
I'm a new member here, and I must say I like it. There is a lot of good advice on these posts. For the new people coming in the Military, welcome and enjoy the ride.
I felt like talking about something a little more touchy. If you think it's too much, feel free to delete this post or simply don't read it for those how will be offended.
The Military is now stuck with the problem of needing more troops in a very competitive world where many interesting jobs are available. So lets face it, they ad to lower their recruiting standards. This open the door to drug problems. (Keep in mind that all that is written here is my own and personnel opinion.) It seems the Forces don't know how to deal with this. They are stuck between legal issues, moral issues and operation requirements (amount of people in the Forces). They have problems keeping them from entering the Forces, and when they are identified, it takes a long time for Ottawa to kick them out.
So, I would like to start an open discussion to see if anyone else feels the same way I do and to see if we could do something about this.
this is navy-nesop, over.
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So, are you in support of, or against, our current drug policies?
What would you like to see changed?
How do you consider that recent "lowering of standards" (please clarify that) has led to your perception that the CF has "open[ed] the door to drug problems"?
Are you aware that we have been charging soldiers for drug use for decades? Drug use by a small percentage of soldiers who choose not to abide by the regulations is not new, and not necessarily related to any recent changes to recruiting standards.
How would you fix your perceived problem?
What would you like to see changed?
How do you consider that recent "lowering of standards" (please clarify that) has led to your perception that the CF has "open[ed] the door to drug problems"?
Are you aware that we have been charging soldiers for drug use for decades? Drug use by a small percentage of soldiers who choose not to abide by the regulations is not new, and not necessarily related to any recent changes to recruiting standards.
How would you fix your perceived problem?
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Drugs in the military is nothing new, they've been around for "years", decades. I can remember when the bases in Germany were still open, it got so bad in Baden that the base Comdr phoned the local German polizie K-9 anti-drug squad in to go through the shacks every few months. We also had a few unlucky saps caught with drugs crossing borders back into Germany.
Gagetown, we had raids, Petawawa we had raids... The list goes on.
In Chiliwack in 85, some young pte gets stoned, pissed of and attempts to burn down base HQ. I was one of the escorts at his court martial.
Nothing new. Drugs have been prevalent within any military since the days of the roman centurion and before. I don't think this has anything to do with the military lowering the standard, because the problem already exists.
Gagetown, we had raids, Petawawa we had raids... The list goes on.
In Chiliwack in 85, some young pte gets stoned, pissed of and attempts to burn down base HQ. I was one of the escorts at his court martial.
Nothing new. Drugs have been prevalent within any military since the days of the roman centurion and before. I don't think this has anything to do with the military lowering the standard, because the problem already exists.
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Here is my 2 cents worth.
Zero tolerance to illegal drug use and trafficking.
Disicipline by example.
No exceptions.
The CF will never take a more relaxed policy to users, abusers and suppliers. Get caught, and your career is most likely fiinshed, you got a criminal record, maybe gaol time, and rightly so!
Drugs ruin lives.
Only losers and idiots use drugs, and I would not want any users in my organisation, in peace or at war. Would you?
Navy-nesop, ATFQ if you like.
Cheers,
Wes
EDITed for spelling
Zero tolerance to illegal drug use and trafficking.
Disicipline by example.
No exceptions.
The CF will never take a more relaxed policy to users, abusers and suppliers. Get caught, and your career is most likely fiinshed, you got a criminal record, maybe gaol time, and rightly so!
Drugs ruin lives.
Only losers and idiots use drugs, and I would not want any users in my organisation, in peace or at war. Would you?
Navy-nesop, ATFQ if you like.
Cheers,
Wes
EDITed for spelling
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I'm glad to see some replies already,
I guest I was not clear enough about my own position. Let me clarify my position and talk about some real examples.
Of course I support the actual drug policies of the Canadian Forces. Which for those who don't know is Zero tolerance. This is not where the problem reside. By lowering the standards, well only a person from recruiting could answer if it's actually true, what I' m talking about is this; I know a guy that bragged about doing some hardcore drugs in the past. He is 22 years old, as 3 years in the Navy. So logically joined when he was around 19. So if you add up all of his stories, it means he was doing drugs just a few years before joining. So I asked him if he told the recruiters that, and he said yes they know about everything and they did not care because I was not doing any anymore. So I was under the impression that if you had done any type of hard drugs you where not considered for enrollment. Mind you this is coming from a guy that tells more lies than anyone I ever met. So maybe he never actually told the recruiting officer.
As for the charges for drugs, again this is not the problem. I know that if they are cough, they will be charged. The issue comes right after that point, these guys will end up staying around the training channel for months before they are release. In fact they will be there longer than a person being trained. The result of that, young guys and girls who are not using drugs are exposed to it. Hell, my own roomate was a drug user, I never saw him using it, but knew anyway. Reported that fact, and asked to be removed from that room so I could not be associated to any of this. What happenned, nothing. For some reason somebody tough it was not really a problem. I stayed there until I moved out with my family. Thank god this guy is out of the Military anyway.
I know drugs have been and will be around forever. Maybe it's just that the legal system superseed the military system, which makes things hard to implement at our level.
Let just tell everyone that drugs are not cool and they will destroy their life.
all stations, this is navy-nesop, over
I guest I was not clear enough about my own position. Let me clarify my position and talk about some real examples.
Of course I support the actual drug policies of the Canadian Forces. Which for those who don't know is Zero tolerance. This is not where the problem reside. By lowering the standards, well only a person from recruiting could answer if it's actually true, what I' m talking about is this; I know a guy that bragged about doing some hardcore drugs in the past. He is 22 years old, as 3 years in the Navy. So logically joined when he was around 19. So if you add up all of his stories, it means he was doing drugs just a few years before joining. So I asked him if he told the recruiters that, and he said yes they know about everything and they did not care because I was not doing any anymore. So I was under the impression that if you had done any type of hard drugs you where not considered for enrollment. Mind you this is coming from a guy that tells more lies than anyone I ever met. So maybe he never actually told the recruiting officer.
As for the charges for drugs, again this is not the problem. I know that if they are cough, they will be charged. The issue comes right after that point, these guys will end up staying around the training channel for months before they are release. In fact they will be there longer than a person being trained. The result of that, young guys and girls who are not using drugs are exposed to it. Hell, my own roomate was a drug user, I never saw him using it, but knew anyway. Reported that fact, and asked to be removed from that room so I could not be associated to any of this. What happenned, nothing. For some reason somebody tough it was not really a problem. I stayed there until I moved out with my family. Thank god this guy is out of the Military anyway.
I know drugs have been and will be around forever. Maybe it's just that the legal system superseed the military system, which makes things hard to implement at our level.
Let just tell everyone that drugs are not cool and they will destroy their life.
all stations, this is navy-nesop, over
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Wesley Down Under said:
I agree with him all the way. Hell, wished he worked at the release center. Did I sounded like I supported drugs? Must be because English is not my first language.
navy-nesop
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Drug use in the military is no more common or exceptional than it was 20 years ago. Despite the soldier being hired nowadays being, in general, of higher education, they are just as likely as anyone else to puff the green stuff (or worse). Those who get caught are and should be punted, not only for stupidity but for potentially endangering the lives of their fellow soldiers, as IMO there is no such thing as a 'responsible' drug-user.
Of note, the CF has a long-waiting list of suitably educated personnel, and there is no need to 'drop standards'. Also of note, you seem to equate drug use with lowered standards, which is a bit of a myth. Drug users come in all shapes and sizes, educated and uneducated, rich and poor.
Of note, the CF has a long-waiting list of suitably educated personnel, and there is no need to 'drop standards'. Also of note, you seem to equate drug use with lowered standards, which is a bit of a myth. Drug users come in all shapes and sizes, educated and uneducated, rich and poor.
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All right,
Lets say that I'm wrong with the "lower standards" thing. By the way I don't want to insult anyone, and I know for a fact that we probably have the best professionals in the world. For the record, none of the guys that where cough for drugs in Esquimalt where geniuses.
I guest I was under the wrong assumption that the problem was at a larger scale then it is. It seems to me that 10 years ago we would never hear about drugs. There was maybe the odd incident once in a while. Now, just when I was at Nellies, we add at least 3 guys in my allway that where doing it. One girl told me she ad done it a few times, but it was not a big deal cause she did not do it anymore. The issue was, in my opinion, that she did not see anything wrong with this because it was casual. I then ask her about her friends, she then said that she was not going to say anything cause her friends would not do it on the ship, you know they are not stupid.
So I apologize if I made this sound maybe to general, maybe it's just worst in Esquimalt. We add a meeting with the Admiral and we got to talk a bit about this issue. They have the best intentions in the world, and they are really pushing with the "zero tolerance". Then one Chief asked "how come we can't just kick them out when we catch them?". Then the Admiral was kind of unease, he add no reassuring answer to this question. Something to do with an office in Ottawa for release, they are over loaded with paperwork! They presented us a drug sniffing dog and did a demonstration. Maybe they tough it would scare the people doing it. I guest the next week, when they told us that they can't really legally use the dog kind a put a dent into the whole dog thing!
I'm just concern, that's all. The people that are doing it seem not effraid at all of the consequences. You know what they say now these days between OS. "Make sure your uniform is ready cause you will get in trouble big time. And if they think it's not up to standard, tell them you add to go for a fix and then they leave you alone."
But like the other posts are saying, drug as been around forever, it's not worst here than anywhere else. No offence to the other guys, I read some of your other post, you guys are all great. I understand your points of view, I also agree with them. Maybe I'm over reacting. Let's just hope my life of yours will never depend on someone on drugs!
all stations, this is navy-nesop, out!
Lets say that I'm wrong with the "lower standards" thing. By the way I don't want to insult anyone, and I know for a fact that we probably have the best professionals in the world. For the record, none of the guys that where cough for drugs in Esquimalt where geniuses.
I guest I was under the wrong assumption that the problem was at a larger scale then it is. It seems to me that 10 years ago we would never hear about drugs. There was maybe the odd incident once in a while. Now, just when I was at Nellies, we add at least 3 guys in my allway that where doing it. One girl told me she ad done it a few times, but it was not a big deal cause she did not do it anymore. The issue was, in my opinion, that she did not see anything wrong with this because it was casual. I then ask her about her friends, she then said that she was not going to say anything cause her friends would not do it on the ship, you know they are not stupid.
So I apologize if I made this sound maybe to general, maybe it's just worst in Esquimalt. We add a meeting with the Admiral and we got to talk a bit about this issue. They have the best intentions in the world, and they are really pushing with the "zero tolerance". Then one Chief asked "how come we can't just kick them out when we catch them?". Then the Admiral was kind of unease, he add no reassuring answer to this question. Something to do with an office in Ottawa for release, they are over loaded with paperwork! They presented us a drug sniffing dog and did a demonstration. Maybe they tough it would scare the people doing it. I guest the next week, when they told us that they can't really legally use the dog kind a put a dent into the whole dog thing!
I'm just concern, that's all. The people that are doing it seem not effraid at all of the consequences. You know what they say now these days between OS. "Make sure your uniform is ready cause you will get in trouble big time. And if they think it's not up to standard, tell them you add to go for a fix and then they leave you alone."
But like the other posts are saying, drug as been around forever, it's not worst here than anywhere else. No offence to the other guys, I read some of your other post, you guys are all great. I understand your points of view, I also agree with them. Maybe I'm over reacting. Let's just hope my life of yours will never depend on someone on drugs!
all stations, this is navy-nesop, out!
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navy-nesop said:
If you are going to talk seriously about the subject, then you have made a couple of good points - its a bit silly to talk about 'zero-tolerance' if you dont have the backbone to carry it through, and its especially difficult if the law doesnt support your actions. The rules of evidence still need to be followed to make charges stick, and there has to be a suitably large enough trained and experienced MP staff handy to conduct interviews and investigations.
Of note, when you send too many MPs overseas, its hard to follow up on issues that arent as important as speeding checkpoints and handing out parking tickets (just a little poke there, I know they actually do more important work...).
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And why would they not be able to legally use the dog? Is that some barrack room lawyer that's said that cause I've never heard of that before. they used a dog to sniff everyone's luggage when we were coming back from tour in 93 in Cyprus and we had a dog in Petawawa in the early nineties and a huge drug bust in one of the Regiment's barracks. We now have a dog in Halifax too. Why would we have a dog if he can't be used?
(The signs around a DND establishment state that anyone who is present on National Defence property is subject to search and seizure and states a portion of the NDA.)
(The signs around a DND establishment state that anyone who is present on National Defence property is subject to search and seizure and states a portion of the NDA.)
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There are some legal precedents for the use of canine sniffers, and if you dont apply them, you risk losing your case when it goes to court. They are supposed to be applicable to all civilian workplaces, but someone may have figured out how it applied in a CF workplace.
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Greymatters said:
I see. Another case of the criminals having more rights than they deserve eh? I would think that civilians that work on Defence establishments are subject to the same rules as all of us. If you have secret documents, weapons, DND property or illegal substances hidden on your person or illegally present in your assigned quarters/work area or POMV then you are subject to the NDA. If we can't enforce that then it's no wonder we can't enforce discipline.
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I think they should expand K9 capabilities in the CF. many a time I have come back from sailing and we have had the dogs onboard from Customs. The way I see it, if you don't have anything to hide then you don't need to worry about having the drug dogs around.
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Unfortunately, being searched at the front gate, or being inspected by customs, is not the same thing as having your workplace or living quarters searched without 'reasonable grounds'.
Now before you think me a proponent of protecting the criminals, Im all for sweeping suspected areas with a dog every month or when an incident is reported. Caught with possession or use of drugs then kick their butts out. However, our legal system is continually arguing over the legality of such things...
Now before you think me a proponent of protecting the criminals, Im all for sweeping suspected areas with a dog every month or when an incident is reported. Caught with possession or use of drugs then kick their butts out. However, our legal system is continually arguing over the legality of such things...
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Hello, this is my first post. I have been reading a lot of interesting info on these boards and actually have something to say for once. If the military can somehow figure out how to make anonymous and safety sensitive testing legal. How come they expierience so much difficulty with the legality of searching what amounts to DND property? I have been told my entire career that even the "Shirt off my back" belongs to the crown.
Still fail to understand
Still fail to understand
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Ropeburn said:
Look at it this way. I own my home (and did when I was still in). If you want to search it, you either get my permission or obtain a search warrant - it's that simple.
People who reside in barracks are in their home. Why shouldn't they have the same rights and protections as I do?
I don't fall hard on either side of this issue - I'm just attempting to make the situation clearer for you.
Roy
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